Next Time You Go To Confession

[KnightofChrist]

and now the rest of the story...

[quote]66. Should not Priests have the power to heal as well as to forgive sin?

No. The chief thing in Christianity is the forgiveness of sin to secure salvation, not the healing of the body to put off a little longer the death which must come sooner or later. Christ gave the Apostles the power to forgive sin and to heal. The power to forgive sin was essential and necessary, and it has passed to all succeeding Priests of the New Law. The power of healing was not meant to be transmitted. God gave it to some in the early Church after the Apostles, but not to all. St. Paul says, "To one is given the word of knowledge; to another the grace of healing; to another, etc." 1 Cor. 12:8-10. The Bible proves that the power of forgiving sin was to be handed on to the successors of the Apostles, and nowhere does it hint that this power was not to be given to all such successors. But St. Paul clearly shows that the gift of healing was not given to all. It is a secondary gift, not for the sake of restoring health, but to prove the mission of the Church. In 1 Cor. 14:22, St. Paul says that the gift of tongues is "for a sign, not to believers, but to unbelievers."

67. Christ said that it is just as easy to say "Get up and walk" as to forgive sin. Do this and we will believe in your power to forgive sin.

It is just as easy to God to say, "Thy sins are forgiven thee," as to say, "Arise and walk." But it is not just as easy to a man unless God has given him the power. But I presume that you are a Christian, and believe in Baptism. What does Baptism do? It destroys sin. Prior to Baptism, the soul is without the life of grace and in a state of sin. But if, by the power of Christ a human being can destroy sin by the Sacrament of Baptism, there is no difficulty in admitting that he could do it by another Sacrament such as Confession. And since you do not demand miracles before you will accept the Sacrament of Baptism, it is inconsistent to demand them for that of Confession. The only thing to prove is that Confession is a Sacrament to destroy later sins, as Baptism destroyed previous sins. That I have done.

68. Christ taught His followers to heal, and they in turn taught their followers.

Christ did not teach His followers to heal. He bestowed upon some of them the divine gift of healing. And they in turn did not teach their followers. It is impossible to teach as an art that which is essentially a supernatural gift. Each one intended by God to have it had to receive it directly from God.

69. Do you deny that the early Christians practiced healling?

I deny that it was anything like a universal practice. Some early Christians were specially endowed by God with the power of healing, in order that the Church might appeal to onlookers in a special way. But the Church has been built, and there is no need to show a stone from the quarry whence it was hewn in order to prove its existence and mission from God.

70. You keep speaking of miracles. Jesus never claimed that His so-called miracles were really such. He relied on mental healing by natural powers.

That is realty nonsense. Can you imagine the mental exertions of the dead body of Lazarus when invited by Christ to think itself alive again? Before raising Lazarus from the dead He lifted His eyes and said "Father, I give thee thanks that thou has heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always; but because of the people who stand about have I said it, that they may believe that thou has sent me." Jn. 11: 41-42. Those words prove His appeal to God's power, and not to natural created forces. And it proves His purpose in working miracles, not for the sake of the miracles, but that people might believe in Him. We do not need miracles before our eyes now to make us believe. Historical evidence is enough.

71. Medicine was in vogue before Christ came. But we Christian Scientists know that Christ ushered in a new dispensation.

Christ ushered in a new dispensation, but not of medicine. He did not come to establish a medical clinic. He came to call sinners to repentance, that they might secure forgiveness for their past sins, overcome their moral faults, and serve Him in a life of virtue

72. You have more faith in a doctor to heal you than you have in God. You have no evidence for that assertion. I know that God usually makes use of secondary causes which He Himself has established, and it is my faith that God will continue to grant them efficacy which takes me to a doctor who has studied their properties. But Christian Science is not faith in God at all. It is faith in self and self 's own immense power of mental effort.

73. Jesus never advised anyone to see a doctor or pay attention to health laws.

Jesus said, "They that are in health need not a physician, but they that are ill." Matt. IX., 12. And the same God whom we Christians worship gave most minute health laws to the Jews, laws which Jesus never declared to be false and useless.

74. The Church became corrupt and lost the power of healing.

You do not know what you are saying. If you believe that Christ is God, you dare not say that a Church declared by Him to be indefectible ever failed: if you do not believe that Christ is God, it is little use your quoting Him at all.

75. But Jesus tells us to heal. You quote only one place from St. Paul suggesting that only a few could heal. Are we to believe Paul or Jesus?

Nowhere did Jesus ever tell us to heal. As for your comparison of St. Paul with Jesus, remember that every word of the New Testament is the inspired word of God. We are to believe both St. Paul and Jesus, and their doctrines never conflict. If they did conflict the New Testament could not be God's word, and you could not use it at all to justify your notions. You must either accept the New Testament as a whole or reject it as a whole.

76. But Jesus said, "These signs will follow them that believe." He even said that His true followers would do greater things than He.

The signs predicted by Christ did follow. But He never said that they would always follow, and that every single believer in Him throughout the ages would be able to do them. As a matter of fact they have not followed at the discretion of every follower of Christ, and if He had intended them to do so, then He has failed, and you are foolish to continue to believe in Him. All priests of the Catholic Church, mean time, do greater things in the spiritual order than Christ wrought in the temporal order; they forgive and destroy sin, raising the spiritually dead to life, a greater work than the raising of those who are bodily dead.

WHAT MINISTERS SAY TODAY ABOUT CONFESSION

Dr. Stocking, a Universalist minister of Allegheny, Pa.:

"I am persuaded that if this practice was taught and observed in our Protestant Churches, there would be less immorality among the ministers and church members. There would be fewer instances of ministers alienating the affections of some parishioner's wife, less contention among church members concerning administration and discipline, etc. If all were under solemn obligations to confess their faults, there would be less wickedness in our Protestant Churches. I know of nothing that would tend to produce a better state of moral purity than the obligation to make confession of individual faults among the ministers and the brethren, unless it be to emphasize the great fact that there is no escape from the consequences of one's sins."

The Rev. Dr. Kilpatrick, a Presbyterian minister of Toronto, Canada:

"The Roman Catholic Church knows full well the value of the personal work of Confession. * * * It is not a mere little wooden box, but the act of two souls-two souls op posed in the presence of the spirit of God. It is a blessed thing to preach the Gospel; but to get alongside of a soul which was defiant and obdurate-this is the thing which means the burden, the passion, the toil of the ministry." From the words of Martin Luther, after he broke with Rome:

"There is no doubt that Confession is necessary, and established by God; but secret and auricular confession, as practiced at this day, in the Church, especially pleases me. It is not merely useful, it is necessary. God forbid that I should wish its abolition! I rejoice that it exists in the Church, because it is the only means to restore peace to troubled consciences."

The Rev. Charles M. Sheldon of Topeka, Kansas, author of "In His Steps":

"It is a place where the people can carry their troubles of whatever kind or nature, business, spiritual and religious, family affairs and purely personal matters and receive advice such as any minister should be able to give, advice that no lawyer and few other friends could give."

In "Clerical Life and Works" by Dr. Liddon, we read:

"The power of remitting and retaining sins was given by our risen Lord in the upper room with closed doors on the evening of the day of the Resurrection. In this way Jesus provided a remedy for the wounds which sin would leave on the souls of His redeemed."

The Protestant theologian, Leibnitz, in his Systematic Theology, says:

"The institution of Sacramental Confession is assuredly worthy of the divine wisdom, and, of all the doctrines of religion, it is the most admirable and the most beautiful. The necessity of confessing sin is sufficient to preserve from it those who still preserve their modesty; and yet, if any fail, Confession consoles and restores them. I look on a grave and prudent confessor as a great instrument of God for the salvation of souls."

From "Out of the Wilderness," published by Our Sunday Visitor, we have the following story from the pen of Augustine Joseph Roth, a convert to Catholicism from the Baptist Ministry.

AFTER FOUR YEARS

After all, we cannot do more. Some smart Jesuit has him hypnotized, but we can be sure that in less than six months he will come back to us. Give him a chance to learn about the Catholic Church from within. Then he'll come back on his knees."

These words were spoken by the Chairman of the Board of Deacons of the Vera Baptist church, of which I was the pastor .... Over four years have passed since that time. I have deliberately waited this long to be sure that I had had ample time to "learn about Catholics from within" and to satisfy myself as to the reality of the joy of my faith. During these four years, I have really studied the Catholic Church. I have traced it from that day at Caesarea Phillippi, when Christ gave unto St. Peter the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, unto the present time. I have drunk to the fill of the grace-giving Sacraments. I have lived with her priests and laity. During these four years I have seen my wife and daughter and my wife's mother received into the same Holy Church, and during this time, the speaker of the above words, together with his entire family were received into the Catholic Church, and no less than fifty members of my former churches have been received into Holy Mother Church. After four years of study and close association with the Catholic Church and her people I can honestly say that I am more firmly rooted in her beauty of holiness than ever before, and each day finds me more anxious to receive her wonderful Sacraments than the day before.

To What Could He Return?

To those of my former congregation who are awaiting my return "on my knees," I would ask one question before I make a comparison. "To what would you have me re turn? What, from a spiritual viewpoint, have you to offer me?"

For six years I pleaded with you that your doctrines were unscriptural and contrary to the teachings of Christ. My plea was denied on the grounds that it would cause objections among the members. I searched through the wilderness of Protestant sects, hoping to find peace and harmony and contentment, instead I found discord and strife and dissatisfaction. Every church among you was a law unto itself, and laws were made as each man saw fit. You had no universal head among you and you were hopelessly divided on all essential fundamental points of Christian doctrine. I searched through the dark abysmal trails of Protestantism, as a "voice crying in the wilderness," but you heard it not or cared not.

Instead of Christ as the founder of your churches, I found men and women whose very lives for the most part, were an outrage to decency. I asked you for authority, and you gave me a mutilated Bible written according to the whim of any man or group of men who thought the Bible needed their interpretation. The result of this is a tragedy far greater than you may imagine. It has been a stumbling block to the earnest seeker after Truth, and it has sent countless souls out into unholy seas of untruth. It has been the cause of more than 150 denominations, not to mention fourteen different kinds of Baptists, twelve different kinds of Methodists, and eleven different kinds of Presbyterians. It was responsible for Mary Baker Eddy, Aimee Semple McPherson Hutton, Brother Ben and a "God in a Rolls Royce," and it will be the cause of countless other pretenders to Divine appointment, and whether you know this or not, whether you laugh at them or not, they have as much right to interpret the Bible as they see fit, as have the Baptists or any other sect.

Found Harmony Only in Catholic Church

Even in the individual churches I could not find harmony. There was always a division among the members, and some would not come to church because they did not like the style of the preaching, and others would not come if the minister changed his style. As pastor of the First Baptist Church of Manchester, Georgia, there was a division between union and nonunion men, if a union man was the first one to arrive at the church for services, I could be sure that my congregation for the day would be composed of one hundred percent union men, and if the first one to arrive was a non-union man, no union man or member of his family would be in church for that service. The words of Christ, "My peace I leave you" were meaningless to you, there was no peace be cause there was no Christ. In the seminary I found a faculty hopelessly divided on essential doctrines and a pitifully bewildered student body. These men, the future ministers, who should be learning how to keep peace and harmony, are learning, at first hand, the rudiments of private interpretation. Little wonder, then, that these men, following in the footsteps of their instructors, will bring meaningless interpretations to their congregations.

I came to you, crying for bread, and you gave me a stone. I sought after peace, I found turmoil. I feared that I should lose what little faith I had left. I prayed, and God in His mercy, heard my prayer, and led me out of the wilderness of denominationalism, into the green pastures of His own love and communion with the saints.

Shall I ever forget the time when I stood before the Blessed Sacrament for the first time? I knew nothing of the Catholic doctrine on the Real Presence of Christ, yet I felt that Presence. There was a calm and peace that I did not feel in my own church. More than a score of men and women were in this church at that time. The quiet calm that pervaded the atmosphere, assured me that they were at peace with God. Here, the words, "My peace I leave you" were not without meaning. I had never before seen the inside of a Catholic church, and I was surprised to see so many people there, for it was neither Sunday nor Wednesday evening.... In the Catholic Church I found a Bible that was untampered with and with that, tradition, for the Catholic Church has been witness since the day when Christ walked on earth; she was present at the Last Supper, when the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist was instituted; she was present when Christ stood before Pilate; she was present at the Crucifixion and again at the Resurrection; she was with the first Christians in the Catacombs; in their prisons of shame; in the arenas of torture. Through nearly two thousand years she has steered a straight course through the cold and barren peaks of bigotry and prejudice. She has seen nations rise to the peak of power and then fall into decay. Countless thousands have come forth, like the leaves of a forest, to hurl their grain of sand against the solid rock on which her Divine Founder placed her, and like the leaves of a forest they have withered and fallen. She has lived to see those who persecuted her strut their brief moment and then perish, and she will live on and on, the greatest civilizing force the world has even known, for she has the promise of Christ "And lo, I am with you, all days, even unto the consummation of the world. . . ."[/quote]

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1060251' date='Sep 10 2006, 02:28 PM']
Actually Budge, last time I went to confession the priest did ask me to hear his. Does that count?

Fr. Brian
[/quote]

[Budge]

he better not tell his bishop he did that...

{bet he broke some canon rule on the books}

[homeschoolmom]

What do you mean?

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1058160' date='Sep 6 2006, 08:13 PM']
with no priest required.
[/quote]
John 20:22-23:
[quote]When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained[/quote].
What's this about the apostles forgiving and retaining sins, if only confessing directly to God is necessary?

[Akalyte]

Yeah confessing to them is necessary in order for them to forgive or retain...

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060401' date='Sep 10 2006, 07:45 PM']
he better not tell his bishop he did that...

{bet he broke some canon rule on the books}
[/quote]

Why?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060401' date='Sep 10 2006, 07:45 PM']
he better not tell his bishop he did that...

{bet he broke some canon rule on the books}
[/quote]
Priests can hear each other's confessions...in fact, no one else can, so I suppose they have to.

Priests go to Confession, too, you know.

[Budge]

I think thats a bad idea, all that means is they know each others secrets and the good ole boy network is kept intact.

[homeschoolmom]

nm

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060658' date='Sep 11 2006, 11:14 AM']
I think thats a bad idea, all that means is they know each others secrets and the good ole boy network is kept intact.
[/quote]


yeah...ok....whatever.....

But I forget....Budge tends to set him/herself up as pope with his/her private interpretations of everything....guess that means all our priests should confess to Budge?

BTW - even the Pope confesses to a priest....in keeping with Scripture....

Edited September 11, 2006 by Groo the Wanderer

[Budge]

[quote]
But I forget....Budge tends to set him/herself up as pope with his/her private interpretations of everything....guess that means all our priests should confess to Budge?[/quote]

I dont believe in Popes.

Obey God rather then men.

So even a Pope Budge, forget it..

:

By the way what is with that crabby avatar, that lady in the pic looks like after shes done downing that glass of wine that she wants to go rip a few heads off people...

[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/uploads/av-4356.gif[/img]

Grrrrrrrrrrr.....

Edited September 11, 2006 by Budge

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060734' date='Sep 11 2006, 01:09 PM']
By the way what is with that crabby avatar, that lady in the pic looks like after shes done downing that glass of wine that she wants to go rip a few heads off people...[/quote]

I was going to make a comment regarding crabby, but nm...

Edited September 11, 2006 by Norseman82

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060734' date='Sep 11 2006, 01:09 PM']


By the way what is with that crabby avatar, that lady in the pic looks like after shes done downing that glass of wine that she wants to go rip a few heads off people...

[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/uploads/av-4356.gif[/img]

Grrrrrrrrrrr.....
[/quote]


ROFLCOPTER!

It is an avatar I created using an online program. I tried to select the features that most looked like me and this is what it spit out...kinda scary, huh? It's a guy, btw....the hair seems a bit long, but the avatar prog had RPGs in mind, hence the kinda medieval look. The wine? I like wine once in a while..about 1 glass a week.

Thanks! Never got feedback on an avatar b4 : :

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060658' date='Sep 11 2006, 12:14 PM']
I think thats a bad idea, all that means is they know each others secrets and the good ole boy network is kept intact.
[/quote]
That theory only works if you presuppose that it's all about knowing each other's secrets. That seems to be the core issue with you in this debate. Why do you think that's what Confession is?

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='Budge' post='1060658' date='Sep 11 2006, 12:14 PM']
I think thats a bad idea, all that means is they know each others secrets and the good ole boy network is kept intact.
[/quote]

But, if, as you say, you know what the Church teaches, then you should know we are not confessing to ourselves we, as priests, administer the sacrament "in Persona Christi" (in the Person of Christ).

If I truly believed that anyone who came to confession to me was telling me what they were telling me for my benefit alone, or just so I could simply help them, I would both be scared and be functioning more as a pyschologist rather than a priest. It is Christ to whom they confess, I am merely the instrument of the grace God wishes to bestow upon that person.

[Budge]

[quote]
ROFLCOPTER!

It is an avatar I created using an online program. I tried to select the features that most looked like me and this is what it spit out...kinda scary, huh? shock.gif It's a guy, btw....the hair seems a bit long, but the avatar prog had RPGs in mind, hence the kinda medieval look. The wine? I like wine once in a while..about 1 glass a week.

Thanks! Never got feedback on an avatar b4 D.gif D.gif[/quote]

Seriously ditch that avatar. It looks like a crabby middle aged college professor with a grudge either having a fight with somebody or about to crush the wine glass with her hand.

It does NOT look like a dude AT ALL. In fact I thought you were a girl all this time, because of it.

[quote]
But, if, as you say, you know what the Church teaches, then you should know we are not confessing to ourselves we, as priests, administer the sacrament "in Persona Christi" (in the Person of Christ).
[/quote]

in Persona Christi is another false teaching.

This picture says it all.

[img]http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/pray101.jpg[/img]
[quote]
Roman Catholicism does, indeed, teach that the priest functions on earth as another Jesus Christ, as this quote from Pope Pius XI and as this picture, above, shows. T[b]his revelation is damning, because the Bible forbids us to follow "another Christ"! Take a close look at this picture. In the very top, we see Jesus Christ in the robes of the Roman Catholic priest, making intercession to God the Father, Who is shown within the Pagan equilateral triangle. Then, through a cloud, we see a real human Roman Catholic priest, receiving the intercession passing through Jesus Christ, which he can then pass through to the parishioners below.[/b]

This picture does a lot more than just depict Catholic belief that the priest is working on their behalf, receiving power and authority directly from Jesus; the picture depicts the Catholic teaching that the human priest is "another Christ", as the writing to the left so clearly illustrates. Jesus Himself warned us, in Matthew 24, that, at the End of the Age, people would see many instances where "another Christ" would appear, claiming that he is a Christ. Listen.

" Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." [Matthew 24:4-5] Notice that Jesus immediately stated that such claims would be great deception, and would be successful in deceiving "many". Would you consider the Roman Catholic faithful, one billion strong, to constitute "many"? Further, I would consider the many thousands of Roman Catholic priests as "many" christs. Thus, in both sides of this coin, this Roman Catholic teaching qualifies as fulfillment of Jesus' End Times prophecy.

Now, let us examine another instance in which Jesus Christ warned that many "Christs" would appear. " Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not." {Matthew 24:23-26]

Jesus was warning here that, at the End of the Age, many false Christs would arise, claiming to be Jesus Christ. This false teaching is exactly what this Roman Catholic doctrine claims! Further, Jesus is saying that these many false Christs would appear in many places, and would show great power and claim great authority. Again, this is exactly what this Roman Catholic teaching accomplishes. Finally, Jesus warned that these false Christs would appear in a variety of places, from the open expanses of the desert to the closed confines of a secret room. We are told that, wherever we hear of a person claiming to be Christ, we are to ignore them, and believe them not![/quote]

Edited September 11, 2006 by Budge

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Uhh... that first picture is faulty. Some serious sloppy theology going on there... Jesus is the second person of the Trinity. Unless the triangle behind the old guy (why is God the Father always depicted as an old guy with a beard?) is not indicative of the Trinity?

[CatholicCid]

Just out of curiosity, is that actually your Baptist Religious denomination? (the cuttingedge site)

And doesn't that picture break the 2nd commandment? It is an imagination of what God looks like and is a vain imagination

Edited September 11, 2006 by CatholicCid

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' post='1060900' date='Sep 11 2006, 05:58 PM']
Uhh... that first picture is faulty. Some serious sloppy theology going on there... Jesus is the second person of the Trinity. Unless the triangle behind the old guy (why is God the Father always depicted as an old guy with a beard?) is not indicative of the Trinity?
[/quote]

Actually, I believe that is a picture from the Baltimore Catechism.

BTW Budge a priest is ordained into the priesthood of Christ and shares in that priesthood by virtue of his ordination. It is only by that and that alone that he can act in Persona Christi when administering the sacraments. I think that is what that picture is trying portray, though it may not be as clear as it could be.

Edited September 11, 2006 by Theologian in Training