I Love Jesus

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1058732' date='Sep 7 2006, 08:14 PM']
If you have faith in Jesus totally and alone, recieving him via FAITH, not wafer, knowing the true gospel that is based in Him rather then in working your way to heaven, then you would be saved.
[/quote]
John 6:54-56[quote]Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.[/quote]

[zunshynn]

Budge, do you think Mother Teresa was trying to work her way into Heaven? Do you think she didn't know Jesus? Are you certain the many Catholics who have died for Jesus the past 2000 years didn't know Him?

What more could Jesus have possibly said in John chapter 6 for you to believe that His flesh is true food and His blood is true drink, and that you must eat it to have life within you?

What was the point of the last supper if it was not our partaking in the covenant? When else was Jesus ever so wishy-washy as to command us to eat some bread and grape juice and just think, oh yeah Jesus really was great? I mean come on, that's pretty wimpy for a guy like Jesus. What's the point if it doesn't actually mean anything. Jesus just doesn't command us to do things for appearance sake. It has to mean something.

In the old covenant anyone who refused to partake of the sacrificial lamb cut himself off from the covenant with God. The last supper is the fulfillment of the passover, and Jesus is the lamb. To call Him a liar and say I will not partake of this passover is to say you don't want the unity with Him that the new covenant offers.

Edited September 8, 2006 by zunshynn

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1058738' date='Sep 7 2006, 08:21 PM']
The Pope CANNOT save you. The priest CANNOT forgive your sins. Only Jesus CAN save you and forgive your sins.[/quote]
John 20:22-23[quote]When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. [b]Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.[/b][/quote]
Christ forgives through the agency of the priest.
If Christ did not wish men to have any agency in the forgiveness of sins, Christ's words to His apostles here become nonsensical.

[Budge]

Catholics use the same verses over and over.

You know after I became a Christian, I realized how proof texting and taking things out of the Bible out of context was a bad idea. Christians learn to take one verse and find others to match it and interpret it. One can find amazing things in the Bible that way. I learned about the "Captain of the Hosts" last night and who that truly is. God has done amazing things in showing me His Word.

Im going to post a study I did on my board, that outlines what I believe about John 6 and how one is to truly receive Jesus Christ.


**************************


In the Catholic Church no one is taught they have to be saved in Christ. Even Commitment to Christ is seen as mostly done through sacraments.

Catholics dont know the real meaning of this:


"I am the living bread ([b]JESUS IS THE LIVING BREAD[/b]) which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world." () The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, [b]WHAT JESUS DID ON THE CROSS-HIS SACRIFICE ON THE CROSS[/b]saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?" ([b]THESE JEWS DIDNT UNDERSTAND AND CERTAINLY DIDNT KNOW THAT CHRIST WOULD GOING TO THE CROSS[/b]) Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed." (John 6:51-55).

Jesus is definitely speaking in spiritual terms.

[size=4]Does this verse mean someone is actually supposed to go eat paper and ink?[/size]
[font="Arial Black"]
Moreover He said to me, "Son of man, eat what you find; eat this scroll, and go, speak to the house of Israel." So I opened my mouth, and He caused me to eat that scroll (Ezekiel 3:1, 2).[/font]

Think on this one...EAT THE WORD.

Who is THE WORD...but Jesus.

These are deep spiritual things.
**************************
[size=4]
Does this verse mean that God will actually make someone eat a tree risking splinters?[/size]

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;[font="Arial Black"] To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life[/font], which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

1Cr 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

Psa 127:2 [It is] vain for you to rise up early, to sit up late, to eat the bread of sorrows: [for] so he giveth his beloved sleep.
[font="Arial Black"]
EATING HAS A SPIRITUAL MEANING IN THE BIBLE!!!!! There are times it means literally eating but many many times it means SPIRITUAL EATING.[/font]


www.blueletterbible.org/t...-7724.html

Jesus says this later during loaves and fishes miracle..."you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. [size=5]Do not labor for food which perishes, but for food which endures to everlasting life." (HE IS THAT FOOD NOT THE EUCHARIST WAFER)[/size]

The true meaning of *eating* of the flesh and blood of Jesus is SPIRITUAL!

DO NOT LABOR FOR FOOD {wafers} that PERISHES.

[Winchester]

[i]Catholics use the same verses over and over.

You know after I became a Christian, I realized how proof texting and taking things out of the Bible out of context was a bad idea. Christians learn to take one verse and find others to match it and interpret it. One can find amazing things in the Bible that way. I learned about the "Captain of the Hosts" last night and who that truly is. God has done amazing things in showing me His Word.

Im going to post a study I did on my board, that outlines what I believe about John 6 and how one is to truly receive Jesus Christ.


**************************


In the Catholic Church no one is taught they have to be saved in Christ. Even Commitment to Christ is seen as mostly done through sacraments.

Catholics dont know the real meaning of this:


"I am the living bread (JESUS IS THE LIVING BREAD) which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world." () The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, WHAT JESUS DID ON THE CROSS-HIS SACRIFICE ON THE CROSSsaying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?" (THESE JEWS DIDNT UNDERSTAND AND CERTAINLY DIDNT KNOW THAT CHRIST WOULD GOING TO THE CROSS) Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed." (John 6:51-55).

Jesus is definitely speaking in spiritual terms.

Does this verse mean someone is actually supposed to go eat paper and ink?

Moreover He said to me, "Son of man, eat what you find; eat this scroll, and go, speak to the house of Israel." So I opened my mouth, and He caused me to eat that scroll (Ezekiel 3:1, 2).

Think on this one...EAT THE WORD.

Who is THE WORD...but Jesus.

These are deep spiritual things.
**************************

Does this verse mean that God will actually make someone eat a tree risking splinters?

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

1Cr 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

Psa 127:2 [It is] vain for you to rise up early, to sit up late, to eat the bread of sorrows: [for] so he giveth his beloved sleep.

EATING HAS A SPIRITUAL MEANING IN THE BIBLE!!!!! There are times it means literally eating but many many times it means SPIRITUAL EATING.


www.blueletterbible.org/t...-7724.html

Jesus says this later during loaves and fishes miracle..."you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not labor for food which perishes, but for food which endures to everlasting life." (HE IS THAT FOOD NOT THE EUCHARIST WAFER)

The true meaning of *eating* of the flesh and blood of Jesus is SPIRITUAL!

DO NOT LABOR FOR FOOD {wafers} that PERISHES.






- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
[/i]
That's why He let the people leave and didn't clarify it was spiritual and not actual.

Ocean front property in AAAARIIIIZONAAA....

[Jaime]

Exactly Winchester

All you've shown is personal conjecture Budge. "Jesus is definitely speaking in spiritual terms". What evidence do you have of that? Don't get me wrong Budgie, I used to think in your terms. But then I accepted the fact that all I was offering was opinion. Nothing about it was critical thinking. Once I applied some critical thinking to it, I realized how wrong I was. From a contextual aspect, if this was a metaphor, why didn't the people who heard it, understand it to be allegorical? Why were they asking questions?

There is no evidence that he was speaking metaphorically or that it was to be understood metaphorically.

[Budge]

[quote]"Jesus is definitely speaking in spiritual terms". What evidence do you have of that? Don't get me wrong Budgie, I used to think in your terms. But then I accepted the fact that all I was offering was opinion. Nothing about it was critical thinking. Once I applied some critical thinking to it, I realized how wrong I was. From a contextual aspect, if this was a metaphor, why didn't the people who heard it, understand it to be allegorical? Why were they asking questions?

There is no evidence that he was speaking metaphorically or that it was to be understood metaphorically.[/quote]

I just showed you verses about scrolls being eaten, does that mean you take those verses literally as well, that someone was chomping down on some paper?

[stbernardLT]

I'm still trying to understand your thoughts on scripture. Sometimes you claim that they are literal, and sometimes symbolic. I think you are confusing yourself, which happens when you try justify every false interpretation with another false interpretation.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Budge' post='1059099' date='Sep 8 2006, 02:23 PM']
I just showed you verses about scrolls being eaten, does that mean you take those verses literally as well, that someone was chomping down on some paper?
[/quote]


See this is what happens when you don't have the first inkling of theological training. Let's take a look at your "examples" of metaphors

From a contextual standpoint, you're literally crossing over hundreds of years and culture. Your assumption is that words and their interpretations won't change over the course of that time. And you'd be wrong. There are dozens of examples of how words evolve in the course of Old Testament to New.

See Budgie you'd be much better comparing Jesus to himself! That would at least make a more coherent argument! For example when Jesus is talking about Judgement Day and he's going to gather all the sheep to his right and all the goats to his left. Are we all going to be sheep and goats?

See now there's a better example!! (Man I hate having to argue both sides. Its sooooo taxing)

[homeschoolmom]

Baaa...

[Winchester]

Well played, hot stuff.

[Dave]

And let's not forget that "spiritual" does NOT mean "symbolic!" Besides, in that language, the phrases "eat one's body" and "drink one's blood," if taken in a figurative manner, mean "to slander." So would we be saved by slandering Jesus? Of course not! Those disciples left Jesus because they knew He was speaking literally, and He never did call them back and say, "Hey guys, I was speaking figuratively!" Also, note that these people were DISCIPLES. They had ALREADY accepted Christ and His teachings up until that point. So "eating and drinking Jesus' Body and Blood" couldn't possibly refer to believing in Jesus.

Edited September 8, 2006 by Dave

[Jaime]

[quote name='Dave' post='1059153' date='Sep 8 2006, 03:38 PM']
And let's not forget that "spiritual" does NOT mean "symbolic!"
[/quote]

Oh Dave, you're always seeing the moves 4 steps ahead.

[Budge]

[quote]From a contextual standpoint, you're literally crossing over hundreds of years and culture. Your assumption is that words and their interpretations won't change over the course of that time. And you'd be wrong. There are dozens of examples of how words evolve in the course of Old Testament to New[/quote]

Dont you realize that the Old Testament interlocks with the New.?
You interpret the Bible using other verses. That is how you translate the Bible.

It is ONE book that does connect together, not a mishmash as you see it.

[stbernardLT]

At least we don't put half verses together and break up paragraphs too get a point across. SHAMEFUL.

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

Bude I suggest you do a study of Levitical law regarding sacrifice, and blood. You will find many rules, and punishments for the misuse of blood ect. Blood was something very serious. For Jesus to refer to this extreme truth of the Old Testament in just a half hazzard symbolic way would be gravely wrong. If you want I have written an essay on it. Privat Message me and I will send you a copy.

[Akalyte]

Hi. I'm back and I love Jesus.


Here eat this:


John 6:4 - Jesus is in Capernaum on the eve of Passover, and the lambs are gathered to be slaughtered and eaten. Look what He says.

John 6:35,41,48,51 - Jesus says four times "I AM the bread from heaven." It is He, Himself, the eternal bread from heaven.

John 6:27,31,49 - there is a parallel between the manna in the desert which was physically consumed, and this "new" bread which must be consumed.

John 6:51-52- then Jesus says that the bread He is referring to is His flesh. The Jews take Him literally and immediately question such a teaching. How can this man give us His flesh to eat?

John 6:53 - 58 - Jesus does not correct their literal interpretation. Instead, Jesus eliminates any metaphorical interpretations by swearing an oath and being even more literal about eating His flesh. In fact, Jesus says four times we must eat His flesh and drink His blood. Catholics thus believe that Jesus makes present His body and blood in the sacrifice of the Mass. Protestants, if they are not going to become Catholic, can only argue that Jesus was somehow speaking symbolically.

John 6:23-53 - however, a symbolic interpretation is not plausible. Throughout these verses, the Greek text uses the word "phago" nine times. "Phago" literally means "to eat" or "physically consume." Like the Protestants of our day, the disciples take issue with Jesus' literal usage of "eat." So Jesus does what?

John 6:54, 56, 57, 58 - He uses an even more literal verb, translated as "trogo," which means to gnaw or chew or crunch. He increases the literalness and drives his message home. Jesus will literally give us His flesh and blood to eat. The word “trogo” is only used two other times in the New Testament (in Matt. 24:38 and John 13:18) and it always means to literally gnaw or chew meat. While “phago” might also have a spiritual application, "trogo" is never used metaphorically in Greek. So Protestants cannot find one verse in Scripture where "trogo" is used symbolically, and yet this must be their argument if they are going to deny the Catholic understanding of Jesus' words. Moreover, the Jews already knew Jesus was speaking literally even before Jesus used the word “trogo” when they said “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” (John 6:52).

John 6:55 - to clarify further, Jesus says "For My Flesh is food indeed, and My Blood is drink indeed." This phrase can only be understood as being responsive to those who do not believe that Jesus' flesh is food indeed, and His blood is drink indeed. Further, Jesus uses the word which is translated as "sarx." "Sarx" means flesh (not "soma" which means body). See, for example, John 1:13,14; 3:6; 8:15; 17:2; Matt. 16:17; 19:5; 24:22; 26:41; Mark 10:8; 13:20; 14:38; and Luke 3:6; 24:39 which provides other examples in Scripture where "sarx" means flesh. It is always literal.

John 6:55 - further, the phrases "real" food and "real" drink use the word "alethes." "Alethes" means "really" or "truly," and would only be used if there were doubts concerning the reality of Jesus' flesh and blood as being food and drink. Thus, Jesus is emphasizing the miracle of His body and blood being actual food and drink.

[Anomaly]

Humor me.
Did you get the above online? From where?

[Akalyte]

[url="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html#eucharist-IIb"]http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_eucha...l#eucharist-IIb[/url]

[Budge]

[quote]Bude I suggest you do a study of Levitical law regarding sacrifice, and blood. You will find many rules, and punishments for the misuse of blood ect. Blood was something very serious. For Jesus to refer to this extreme truth of the Old Testament in just a half hazzard symbolic way would be gravely wrong. If you want I have written an essay on it. Privat Message me and I will send you a copy.[/quote]

God would never go against His own commandments and have folks drink BLOOD literally.

[quote]Lev 17:10 And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, [size=4]that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.[/size]
11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.
[/quote]

Reread this one again folks.
[size=4]Joh 6:58
This is that bread which came down from heaven: [size=5]not as your fathers did eat manna[/size], and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Not as your fathers did eat manna...ie dont eat everyday. No repeats necessary over and over.

Compare..

The Catholic Church teaches that the EUCHARIST cleanses people from sin when the BIble teaches something else, keep reading..

[quote]"For this reason the Eucharist cannot unite us to Christ without at the same time [u]cleansing us from past sins [/u]and preserving us from future sins:" Pg. 351, #1393[/quote]

[quote]"By the same charity that it enkindles in us, [u]the Eucharist preserves us from future mortal sins."[/u] Pg. 352, #1395 [/quote]

The Bible teaches it is the blood of Christ that washes away our sins..

[size=4]"...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." 1 John 1:7

"And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness...Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood," Revelation 1:5 [/size]