I Love Jesus

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Yeah, the Blood of Jesus does wash away our sins... the Blood of Jesus in the Eucharist. The Most Holy Eucharist IS the Body, Blood, Soul, & Divinity of Jesus Christ.

Secondly, Jesus meant "not as your fathers did" because they DIED... keep reading... "he who eats THIS bread will live forever" which bread? John 6:50 Jesus points to HIMSELF and says "THIS is the bread"

[Budge]

Yes Jesus is the bread of Life, He went to the cross and died for sinners, so that we may have eternal life.

He isnt sliced and diced into a million wafers, but He is in heaven...resurrected.

[quote] the Blood of Jesus in the Eucharist. [/quote]

How does this equate with the Catholic Eucharist being called a

BLOODLESS SACRIFICE?

[Winchester]

The "wafers" are neither sliced nor diced.

Is it called a "BLOODLESS SACRIFICE?"

Did the editor of the CCC mis the caps lock being on?

[zunshynn]

[quote name='zunshynn' post='1058818' date='Sep 7 2006, 08:50 PM']
Budge, do you think Mother Teresa was trying to work her way into Heaven? Do you think she didn't know Jesus? Are you certain the many Catholics who have died for Jesus the past 2000 years didn't know Him?

What more could Jesus have possibly said in John chapter 6 for you to believe that His flesh is true food and His blood is true drink, and that you must eat it to have life within you?

What was the point of the last supper if it was not our partaking in the covenant? When else was Jesus ever so wishy-washy as to command us to eat some bread and grape juice and just think, oh yeah Jesus really was great? I mean come on, that's pretty wimpy for a guy like Jesus. What's the point if it doesn't actually mean anything. Jesus just doesn't command us to do things for appearance sake. It has to mean something.

In the old covenant anyone who refused to partake of the sacrificial lamb cut himself off from the covenant with God. The last supper is the fulfillment of the passover, and Jesus is the lamb. To call Him a liar and say I will not partake of this passover is to say you don't want the unity with Him that the new covenant offers.
[/quote]


Budgie, you never actually answered my questions. You think you could now? I was really looking forward to hearing what you said.

You also haven't shown how it's plainly meant to be read in a symbolic context. The verses you talked about about eating scrolls was in a completely different context.

You completely ignore chunks of the Bread of Life discourse. You'd have to to come up with your interpretations, of course. But I thought we were going to read things in context?

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1058992' date='Sep 8 2006, 07:38 AM']
Catholics use the same verses over and over.

You know after I became a Christian, I realized how proof texting and taking things out of the Bible out of context was a bad idea. Christians learn to take one verse and find others to match it and interpret it. One can find amazing things in the Bible that way. I learned about the "Captain of the Hosts" last night and who that truly is. God has done amazing things in showing me His Word.

Im going to post a study I did on my board, that outlines what I believe about John 6 and how one is to truly receive Jesus Christ.
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In the Catholic Church no one is taught they have to be saved in Christ. Even Commitment to Christ is seen as mostly done through sacraments.

Catholics dont know the real meaning of this:
"I am the living bread ([b]JESUS IS THE LIVING BREAD[/b]) which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world." () The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, [b]WHAT JESUS DID ON THE CROSS-HIS SACRIFICE ON THE CROSS[/b]saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?" ([b]THESE JEWS DIDNT UNDERSTAND AND CERTAINLY DIDNT KNOW THAT CHRIST WOULD GOING TO THE CROSS[/b]) Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed." (John 6:51-55).

Jesus is definitely speaking in spiritual terms.

[size=4]Does this verse mean someone is actually supposed to go eat paper and ink?[/size]
[font="Arial Black"]
Moreover He said to me, "Son of man, eat what you find; eat this scroll, and go, speak to the house of Israel." So I opened my mouth, and He caused me to eat that scroll (Ezekiel 3:1, 2).[/font]

Think on this one...EAT THE WORD.

Who is THE WORD...but Jesus.

These are deep spiritual things.
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[size=4]
Does this verse mean that God will actually make someone eat a tree risking splinters?[/size]

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;[font="Arial Black"] To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life[/font], which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

1Cr 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

Psa 127:2 [It is] vain for you to rise up early, to sit up late, to eat the bread of sorrows: [for] so he giveth his beloved sleep.
[font="Arial Black"]
EATING HAS A SPIRITUAL MEANING IN THE BIBLE!!!!! There are times it means literally eating but many many times it means SPIRITUAL EATING.[/font]
www.blueletterbible.org/t...-7724.html

Jesus says this later during loaves and fishes miracle..."you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. [size=5]Do not labor for food which perishes, but for food which endures to everlasting life." (HE IS THAT FOOD NOT THE EUCHARIST WAFER)[/size]

The true meaning of *eating* of the flesh and blood of Jesus is SPIRITUAL!

DO NOT LABOR FOR FOOD {wafers} that PERISHES.
[/quote]
And protestants ignore or "explain away" the same verses repeatedly.

When many left Him over this "hard teaching," Christ did not call them back to explain how it was all "spiritual" or mere metaphor. He asked if His Apostles would also leave Him. And in the Gospels, Christ often explained to His disicples the meaning of parables they had trouble understanding.
There is nothing in this passage to indicate that this was a parable or metaphor.

"[b]For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed."[/b]
Christ never spoke this way about parables or metaphors.

It's really kind of amusing (yet sad) how "Bible Christians" attempt to "explain away" those passages of Scripture which go against the dogmas of their own particular denomination.

Why are we to trust your particular "interpretation" over that handed down from the Apostles, as evidenced by the words of the Church fathers?

St. Paul himself says in 1 Corinthians 11:27-29:
[quote]Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice.* For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.[/quote]
Pretty strong language if this was only metaphor! (Or had Paul already fallen into Romish Superstition?)

[Akalyte]

I'm still wondering why Budge ignored my Scripture post. Is it because they prove Jesus left no room for "symbolic interpretation".?

[Budge]

[quote]There is nothing in this passage to indicate that this was a parable or metaphor.[/quote]


Jesus himself says its symbolic...

Jhn 6:63 [size=5]It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:[/size] the words that I speak unto you, [size=5][they] are spirit, and [they] are life.[/size]

Please describe what this verse means to you.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Then, Budge, is the Holy SPIRIT merely "symbolic"? Where else is the word "spirit" in Scripture meant to be taken as "symbolic"?

[Jaime]

See now Budge this is a good one. Let's take a look at the whole passage.

[quote]So they asked him, "What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'[c]"

32Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."

34"Sir," they said, "from now on give us this bread."

35Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty[/quote]

He starts off light. "I am the bread of life" Everyone around is thinking like you Budge. "Well he's just being metaphorical"

So what does Christ do? He presses it. He repeats it and he further elaborates.

[quote]Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.'[d] Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."[/quote]


Now folks are getting ticked [b]because they realize he isn't speaking metaphorically[/b]

[quote]Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"[/quote]

Ok now Christ has a second chance to make it clear he's just speaking figuratively. (And btw, every time that Jesus was asked to clarify his parables or teachings, he did) But he takes it up a notch. Not only do you have to eat my flesh but now you have to drink my blood!

[quote]Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.[/quote]

So what do some of the followers do at your verse? They leave!!! Why? BECAUSE HE WASN'T BEING FIGURATIVE! They were offended!

[quote]On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"

61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

66[b]From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.[/b] [/quote]

So what is he saying about spirit and flesh? His words are spirit because they come from God. How do the disciples understand that? This is precisely how Christ was laying it out. "If you understand where I come from, and where my words come from, you have to take them to be true!"

If he was actually clarifying (as you suggest) that it was just a metaphor. Then why did everyone leave except for the twelve? According to your interpretation, they left because it was a metaphor. And honestly that wouldn't make any sense!

They left because Christ had three opportunities to clarify what he meant. Each time, he was more graphic and more literal. Finally when they realized he wasn't being figurative, they left.

[Akalyte]

[quote name='Budge' post='1059571' date='Sep 9 2006, 10:23 AM']
Jesus himself says its symbolic...

Jhn 6:63 [size=5]It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:[/size] the words that I speak unto you, [size=5][they] are spirit, and [they] are life.[/size]

Please describe what this verse means to you.
[/quote]


there is no symbol here. Spirit is not symbolic. He's right the flesh profiteth nothing. Meaning earthly things. I assure you, he's not talking about his own flesh. His flesh is everything, after all he wants us to consume it. So that we have life.

Edited September 9, 2006 by Akalyte

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1058721' date='Sep 7 2006, 10:08 PM']
I don't have to go for fill-ups



I received Jesus Christ as my savior biblically via FAITH, not via WAFER
[/quote]

We don't go for fill-ups; we go for mending. The Eucharist is not our fuel; it is our medicine. Jesus Christ fills us as much as we allow Him, and each time we ask Him to come to us by receiving Him in Holy Communion, we break down the walls in ourself which we have built up against Him. To assume otherwise is to say either that after accepting Jesus in faith, He destroys all the walls we, in our weakness, wish to keep up (which denies that Jesus is gentle and loving, and says that He is instead a Savior with a wrecking-ball) or that once we accept Him, we never sin again, which is to say that our faith is perfect here and now, even though it is not the size of a mustard seed (which denies that conversion is ongoing). So, take your pick...will you follow unbiblical fallacy A or unbiblical fallacy B?

[Budge]

[quote]Jesus Christ fills us as much as we allow Him, and each time we ask Him to come to us by receiving Him in Holy Communion[/quote]

So where does the Holy Spirit fit in there?

[size=4]
Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, [u]that he may abide with you for ever[/u];[/size]

Edited September 10, 2006 by Budge

[Jaime]

[quote name='Budge' post='1059893' date='Sep 9 2006, 08:03 PM']
So where does the Holy Spirit fit in there?

[size=4]
Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, [u]that he may abide with you for ever[/u];[/size]
[/quote]


Excellent point Budge! Wonderful verse quote! And you're right. The Holy Spirit is guiding Holy Mother Church and will always do so!


BTW I'll take it (by your silence) that you agree with my assessment on the last bible verse you threw out

[Budge]

[quote]The Holy Spirit is guiding Holy Mother Church and will always do so! [/quote]

The Holy Spirit isnt just for your special experts. He is for all true Christians.

[Budge]

[quote]The Holy Spirit is guiding Holy Mother Church and will always do so! [/quote]

The Holy Spirit isnt just for your special experts. He is for all true Christians.

[Dave]

[quote name='Budge' post='1059918' date='Sep 9 2006, 09:25 PM']
The Holy Spirit isnt just for your special experts. He is for all true Christians.
[/quote]

So then how come all these "true Christians" come to all these different conclusions regarding various aspects of Christian teachings? Some say you can never lose your salvation; others say you can. Some say baptism is only symbolic; others say it confers sanctifying grace and takes away original sin. Some say you have to speak in tongues; others say you don't. And yet they'd all claim they're guided by the Holy Spirit. So who to believe?

[zunshynn]

Budge, you still haven't answered my questions. Pretty please? Or do you only respond to antagonism?

As for John 6.63, Jesus is saying that OUR flesh profits nothing... that this Bread of Life He speaks of is beyond our physical comprehension... it is for our spiritual comprehension. Thus, the Eucharist retains the appearance of bread and wine, though in substance it is Our Lord. Just Just because its purpose is spiritual does not mean that its nature is symbolic or any less real. The two are not synonymous. To make them synonymous is to go with the culture's definition of spiritual is: relative, non-existent and foolish. The understanding of spirituality in a genuine, faith-centered understanding is that what is spiritual is more real and substantial than anything.

And answer me this: COULD the God that created everything out of nothing and turned water to wine turn wine into His blood and body? I'm not asking if you think He did, I'm asking if He could, note.

[Winchester]

BREAK

Budge I noticed double post. Have you been having the same lag problem as me? I hit the button, no response, tap again, and get a double.

BREAK

[Budge]

[quote]
So then how come all these "true Christians" come to all these different conclusions regarding various aspects of Christian teachings? Some say you can never lose your salvation; others say you can. Some say baptism is only symbolic; others say it confers sanctifying grace and takes away original sin. Some say you have to speak in tongues; others say you don't. And yet they'd all claim they're guided by the Holy Spirit. So who to believe?[/quote]

Most Chrsitian churchs are alike rather then different.

1. Avoid liturgical sacramental--ie Catholic churches-or daughters like Anglican.

2. Avoid liberal churches--modernist, neo-evangelical.

The rest are pretty close. Catholics dont understand this because I didnt as a Catholic but there is a lot of overlap between Christian churches. I can visit probably 5-7 churches in this community that are not independent Baptist [my particular denomination] and be perfectly fine. Some may use elders, and have a few different practices...but what matters is, do they stick to Gods Word and are they born again believers? The peripherals--arent as important as Catholics make it out to be.

Ive seen a lot more difference in Catholic churches, with progressive Catholics opposed to Novus Ordo neo-con Catholics, with Trads in the mix. Some of those beliefs definitely are quite different.

{the churches that teach baptism isnt symbolic are mostly liturgical churches }

The Catholic church's view of themselves as the one true church [or any other church or cult that teaches this is WRONG according to what Jesus Christ taught]
[size=4]
Mar 9:38 ¶ And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part[/size]

[Jaime]

Still avoiding Budgie.