Ann Coulter

[DAF]

What about on Fox News?

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1063816' date='Sep 15 2006, 09:23 PM']
But I feel our witness when it comes to war is sorely lacking. Orthodox Christians have the march for life every year in Washington. Where is our march against war?
[/quote]
It must be the sheer numbers that have numbed America to the brutality that occurs thousands of times every day. 45,000,000 in America plus [i]countless[/i] by contraception. The Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave? Really? Peace will not happen until abortion has ended. End of story. How can you possibly think that all of a sudden war will stop out of respect for human life when we kill 5,000 here everyday? Abortion is the root of the problem and war is the fruit.

[zwergel88]

[quote name='Veritas' post='1063607' date='Sep 15 2006, 03:13 PM']



Everytime I see you post something, especially regarding "hating someone" I do a double take; because, I see St. Therese and so associate her with your words, which are things I couldn't picture her saying, I have to remind myself it's you and not her I'm reading!
[/quote]


Well I usually think political figures are fair game, and it's mostly sarcasm anyway. But come to think of it, I usually have to do a double take with most of you folks, becuase every time I get told that I'm a bad Catholic, and I don't think, act, or say what I should, I have to remind myself that its self-righteous hypocrites and not open minded compassionate people's words that I'm reading.

Needless to say, I think I'm done with Phatmass for a while.

[catholicinsd]

[quote name='DAF' post='1063968' date='Sep 16 2006, 12:57 AM']
What about on Fox News?
[/quote]

It's the only place Ann Coulter will debate.

[Veritas]

[quote name='zwergel88' post='1064119' date='Sep 16 2006, 06:44 AM']
Well I usually think political figures are fair game, and it's mostly sarcasm anyway. But come to think of it, I usually have to do a double take with most of you folks, becuase every time I get told that I'm a bad Catholic, and I don't think, act, or say what I should, I have to remind myself that its self-righteous hypocrites and not open minded compassionate people's words that I'm reading.

Needless to say, I think I'm done with Phatmass for a while.
[/quote]

+

I don't think you are a "bad Catholic..." I'm sorry if you read that. I don't even know you. As far as the other charges:

"Open Minded" -- Christ said the way is narrow.
"Compassionate" --Not if it means tolerating sin. In that case, Christ himself wouldn't be "compassionate"!
"Self-righteous hypocrite" --I don't expect anything of others that I don't expect of myself, and I don't expect anything of myself that Christ doesn't expect of me.

That being said, we're all sinners, myself included. Believe me, I know it. I don't know if we get to toss our Christianity out because we're talking about a political figure and sometimes sarcasm doesn't read well over the computer.

If you want to talk about it, pm me.
I hope you return soon. God Bless you.

Edited September 16, 2006 by Veritas

[Era Might]

[quote name='notardillacid' post='1064027' date='Sep 16 2006, 02:37 AM']It must be the sheer numbers that have numbed America to the brutality that occurs thousands of times every day. 45,000,000 in America plus [i]countless[/i] by contraception. The Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave? Really? Peace will not happen until abortion has ended. End of story. How can you possibly think that all of a sudden war will stop out of respect for human life when we kill 5,000 here everyday? Abortion is the root of the problem and war is the fruit.[/quote]
We spend more time watching sports than we do worrying about war. It has nothing to do with abortion being a heinous tragedy. We have no problem spending hours online bickering about Liturgical issues.

The Church's theology of peace has just gone over our heads. Peace IS a pro-life issue. Continually falling back on "abortion kills more people" is getting old. That doesn't stop us from feeding the poor. It doesn't stop us from worrying about the Priest using the wrong greeting for Mass.

We can do two things at once. We can organize against abortion and still organize against war. Maybe we can just cut out a few hours a day that we vegetate before the television.

War was here long before abortion became legal.

[Veritas]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1064175' date='Sep 16 2006, 09:04 AM']
We spend more time watching sports than we do worrying about war. It has nothing to do with abortion being a heinous tragedy. We have no problem spending hours online bickering about Liturgical issues.

The Church's theology of peace has just gone over our heads. Peace IS a pro-life issue. Continually falling back on "abortion kills more people" is getting old. That doesn't stop us from feeding the poor. It doesn't stop us from worrying about the Priest using the wrong greeting for Mass.

We can do two things at once. We can organize against abortion and still organize against war. Maybe we can just cut out a few hours a day that we vegetate before the television.

War was here long before abortion became legal.
[/quote]

Again, I think it's because THE CHURCH DOESN'T SPEAK DEFINITIVELY ABOUT WAR, the way she does about liturgical issues and abortion.

(caps for emphasis, not anger )

Edited September 16, 2006 by Veritas

[Anomaly]

Didn't God use WAR?

The key is to know when to use it, unlike abortion, when there is never a correct time. Maybe that's why you think the Church's theology on war goes over our heads. You misunderstand and misrepresent it.

[Era Might]

The problem with abortion is the same problem with war. We have to convert hearts. We have to show people that peace and life are paramount values. We can't stop reverse Roe v. Wade anymore than we can stop the President from going to war. But we can make our voices heard, and stand up for the innocent, whether in the womb or in the cities of Iraq.

How would a march for peace compromise the march for life? We can't set aside one day a year for peace?

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1064182' date='Sep 16 2006, 11:08 AM']Didn't God use WAR?

The key is to know when to use it, unlike abortion, when there is never a correct time. Maybe that's why you think the Church's theology on war goes over our heads. You misunderstand and misrepresent it.[/quote]
God also used stoning to death for blasphemers. What's your point?

No, the key is knowing that war is not something to "use". It's something that is brought upon you as an act of desperation in self-defense. I know it hurts our heads to think about all those innocent people we're bombing, but the fact is THEY ARE DYING. But, as long as we take care of the unborn, we never have to worry about anyone else.

[quote]Here, then, we have an objective dictated first of all by reason. There is general agreement—or at least there should be—that relations between States, as between individuals, must be regulated not by armed force, but in accordance with the principles of right reason: the principles, that is, of truth, justice and vigorous and sincere co-operation.

--Pope John XXIII, Encyclical Letter "Pacem In Terris"[/quote]

[Akalyte]

Ann coulter is correct in saying liberals are Godless, in many cases many of them are, because they have adopted a atheistic communist way of thinking and seeing things..

Such as their take on seperation of church and state..They have taken the seperation of church and state of the fathers and replaced it with the atheistic version...(meaning eradicate every influence the church has on society, images, everything.

As for me I will never accept liberalism, whatsoever

Liberals are like termites, they eat away at the foundation of society while saying "what do we do wrong". They hold up signs saying "hi i'm open minded, come on in satan".

Edited September 16, 2006 by Akalyte

[Era Might]

[quote name='Veritas' post='1064178' date='Sep 16 2006, 11:05 AM']Again, I think it's because THE CHURCH DOESN'T SPEAK DEFINITIVELY ABOUT WAR, the way she does about liturgical issues and abortion.

(caps for emphasis, not anger )[/quote]
The Church doesn't speak definitively about any specific war, no. But I'm not talking about marching against this or that war. I'm talking about marching for peace. Educating our government about the strict and grave conditions about just war. Doing everything we can to banish the resort to war. Doing everything we can to tell our government to find another way.

The mind of the Church is very clearly that a conversion of heart must take place, that we must rise up and demand that war is a great evil that can only be a desperate act of self-defense.

But, we're compromised. because we're Americans, and that is a conflict of interest when we go to war. We look at the matter through the eyes of an American, and not as Catholics who are in this country, but not of it. That's the real problem that we face as a Christian community here in America. It always has been, even in the early days when the Holy See had to warn the faithful against "Americanism".

[Veritas]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1064189' date='Sep 16 2006, 09:19 AM']
The Church doesn't speak definitively about any specific war, no. But I'm not talking about marching against this or that war. I'm talking about marching for peace. Educating our government about the strict and grave conditions about just war. Doing everything we can to banish the resort to war. Doing everything we can to tell our government to find another way.

The mind of the Church is very clearly that a conversion of heart must take place, that we must rise up and demand that war is a great evil that can only be a desperate act of self-defense.

But, we're compromised. because we're Americans, and that is a conflict of interest when we go to war. We look at the matter through the eyes of an American, and not as Catholics who are in this country, but not of it. That's the real problem that we face as a Christian community here in America. It always has been, even in the early days when the Holy See had to warn the faithful against "Americanism".
[/quote]

+

My last comment on the subject: To reiterate, if Americans are going to "rise-up" and devote their energies on peace and justice, I think it would be most appropriate to focus on abortion. Again, "peace begins in the womb". Miraculously, in your experience, that has already happened. However, as long as it exists, in my mind that is the primary fight in America today. I think it is shameful the number of anti-war protestors, who fight in the name of "life", who totally ignore abortion. I'm not saying this is you Era, I'm just saying THIS (abortion), should be the focus now. To divert this, is sad to me. Now, if God is truly calling you, by all means, obey. Pax Christi.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1064189' date='Sep 16 2006, 10:19 AM']
But, we're compromised. because we're Americans, and that is a conflict of interest when we go to war. We look at the matter through the eyes of an American, and not as Catholics who are in this country, but not of it. That's the real problem that we face as a Christian community here in America. It always has been, even in the early days when the Holy See had to warn the faithful against "Americanism".
[/quote]There you go. Display your ignorance by spouting stereotypes and bringing a laser beam focus on your arrogance and bias. You pick out what you want to project the Church is, ignore logic, and spout it.

The old saying is, "It's not a lie if you believe it".

[Era Might]

[quote name='Veritas' post='1064190' date='Sep 16 2006, 11:26 AM']My last comment on the subject: To reiterate, if Americans are going to "rise-up" and devote their energies on peace and justice, I think it would be most appropriate to focus on abortion. Again, "peace begins in the womb". Miraculously, in your experience, that has already happened. However, as long as it exists, in my mind that is the primary fight in America today. I think it is shameful the number of anti-war protestors, who fight in the name of "life", who totally ignore abortion. I'm not saying this is you Era, I'm just saying THIS (abortion), should be the focus now. To divert this, is sad to me. Now, if God is truly calling you, by all means, obey. Pax Christi.[/quote]
We ARE focusing on abortion. Again, we find time to worry about ten thousand things, but somehow standing up for peace is gonna hurt our witness to life? I agree that it's terrible to ignore abortion. This is not an either/or thing.

This is the problem with the political hijack of moral crises. War has been set on one side, and abortion on the other. For the Church, they are both part of one and the same committment to life.

I don't understand what you mean that we should focus on abortion. Why does peace have to be excluded? If we rally against abortion 6 days of the week, will our efforts be forgotten because we march for peace 1 day a week?

Abortion is a matter of peace and justice, as is war. They are both matters of innocent lives being killed. You can't have war without killing those innocent people and destroying their lives. Whether you intend to or not, their lives are taken and destroyed with the same violence and consequences as an unborn child.

If someone murders a family member of yours today, will you let it go because thousands of babies are murdered today as well? No. You will want to see that person brought to justice. If you have to go to court to testify, you could find time in between your pro-life activities. It doesn't mean you're "diverting" anything. Does standing up against euthanasia and gay marriage take away from our efforts against abortion? Of course not.

Why can't we find time for peace? How would marching for peace one day a year divert our efforts on behalf of the unborn? It's like having two children. You can give attention to both of them, plus your wife. The tone of the Bishops and the Holy See is remarkably different from our tone here in America.

[quote]First, a "YES TO LIFE"! Respect life itself and individual lives: everything starts here, for the most fundamental of human rights is certainly the right to life. Abortion, euthanasia, human cloning, for example, risk reducing the human person to a mere object: life and death to order, as it were! When all moral criteria are removed, scientific research involving the sources of life becomes a denial of the being and the dignity of the person. War itself is an attack on human life since it brings in its wake suffering and death. The battle for peace is always a battle for life!

--Pope John Paul II

[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/2003/january/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20030113_diplomatic-corps_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...c-corps_en.html[/url][/quote]
The Pope says "war itself is an attack on human life". That is why the Bishops are always the first voice for peace, because this is not about partisan politics. This is about standing up for the weak and innocent of the world.

Edited September 16, 2006 by Era Might

[Veritas]

+

Era, first, I'm speaking from a prudential light: We all have a limited amount of time, energy, and resources. Second, war ISN'T always wrong. So, considering our resources are finite, I believe they should be directed towards pro-life work as the larger, more consistent, problem. Babies in the womb have NO hope. Those in war torn areas, as difficult as it may be, may at least have some hope of relocation, foreign aid, and life. There are hundreds of thousands of relief workers (not enough) all over the world. War is, at least, limited to the few relatively speaking. Abortion on the otherhand, gives every single person in this country the "right" to kill.

Do we need to pray for peace, of course. Do we need to advocate for peace, of course. Do we need to provide material support for those in war torn areas, of course.

However, is there a time for war, of course. Is this it? That, thank God, is not up to me.

Instead of spending my time, protesting something, which may or may not be acceptable (I don't have the information to make that decision), I'm going to involve myself in something I KNOW is abhorent -the murder 4,000 human being before they are born LEGALLY in this country EVERY day.

[Era Might]

[quote]Second, war ISN'T always wrong. So, considering our resources are finite, I believe they should be directed towards pro-life work as the larger, more consistent, problem.[/quote]
You're missing the point. War IS a pro-life problem. "The battle for peace is always a battle for life" according to Pope John paul II.

Must we divert our energy away from euthanasia because we have to stand up against abortion? Technically, the elderly have a chance to live. If someone tries to kill them, they can fight back. That's more than you can say for the unborn.

[quote]Instead of spending my time, protesting something, which may or may not be acceptable (I don't have the information to make that decision), I'm going to involve myself in something I KNOW is abhorent -the murder 4,000 human being before they are born LEGALLY in this country EVERY day.[/quote]
I have the information. According to the Church, "War is always an attack on human life". That means when the United States went to war with Iraq, it decided to unleash an attack on human life. Whatever the intentions, when you go to war, you are saying, "We are ready and willing to kill the innocent to solve this problem". This is why the Church's doctrine of just war is framed around self-defense, as an absolute last ditch effort. Preemption is completely alient to the Church's moral theology. If Christians don't stand up and hold the government to the stringent standards of peace and life, then we have failed in our duty.

If you feel we don't have time to devote to anything but abortion, I guess I just have to say do what you feel is possible and right. I think we have time and resources to stand up about many things. About abortion. About war. About euthanasia. About gay marriage. About Liturgical abuse. And even about sports.

Unfortunately, we have left peace out of the equation as American Christians. We will have to stand before God and answer for that one day. He gave us the standard himself. "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall inherit the earth".

[quote]At the same time we believe that you realize the need for creating a new mentality in regard to the relations between peoples-a mentality that does not admit recourse to war and weapons, but envisions civilization as the expression of justice and fraternal love.

--Pope Paul VI

[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/speeches/1978/february/document/hf_p-vi_spe_19780204_collegio-difesa-nato_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/...sa-nato_en.html[/url][/quote]

Edited September 16, 2006 by Era Might

[Veritas]

"You're missing the point. War IS a pro-life problem. "The battle for peace is always a battle for life" according to Pope John paul II" Era

I agree with this, I think it's your method is problematic. For one thing, protesting in the streets is about being anti-Bush, not anti-war here in the Twin Cities --there is so much hate involved. Secondly, we must ask, "Where can I be the most effective in my fight for life? Where am I informed to protest?" Protesting this war is minimally effective, questionably appropriate, and majorly annoying.

"Should we divert our energy away from euthanasia because we have to worry about abortion? Technically, the old people have a chance to live. If someone tries to kill them, they can fight back. That's more than you can say for the unborn." Era

This is a good point. But, again, where can we be effective --yes we can be effective in the battle against euthanasia and it IS our place --it isn't a matter of national security.

Well, I have the information. According to the Church, "War is always an attack on human life". Era

Yes, but not "innocent" human life -- there is an important difference.

"That means when the United States went to war with Iraq, it decided to unleash an attack on human life. Whatever the intentions, when you go to war, you are saying, "We are ready and willing to kill the innocent to solve this problem". If Christians don't stand up and hold the government to the stringent standards of peace and life, then we have failed in our duty." Era

It is the government's job to provide national security. It's mine to support peace where I can, but not to undermine that effort.

"If you feel we don't have time to devote to anything but abortion, I don't know what to say. You do what you feel is possible and right. Personally, I believe we have time to worry about many things. About abortion. About war. About euthanasia. About homosexual "marriage". About Liturgical abuse. And even about sports. " Era

I don't think we should "worry" about anything, but pray for everythong (but perhaps that is semantics). I'm not saying we don't have time and energy for anything else, but I think we need to unite and prioritze.

"Unfortunately, we have left peace out of the equation as American Christians. We will have to stand before God and answer for that one day. He gave us the standard himself. "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall inherit the earth". Era


Who's saying we're not peacemakers? I see it all the time. We're just not a bunch of hippies, who are insane about it -- wow that was an intelligent, intriguing, well- articulated statement I just made!

Edited September 16, 2006 by Veritas

[Era Might]

[quote]I agree with this, I think it's your method that is the problem for me. Protesting in the streets is about being anti-Bush, not anti-war here in the Twin Cities --there is so much hate involved.[/quote]
You don't have to protest in the streets. I don't think the march for life is a wild protest in the streets. It's a respectful march for life. The same can be done on behalf of peace.

[quote]Yes, but not "innocent" human life -- there is an important difference.[/quote]
No, it is an attack on innocent human life. It kills women, children, and other civilians who are not involved in the war.

[quote]It is the government's job to provide national security. It's mine to support peace where I can, but not to undermine that effort.[/quote]
The government is subject to the moral law.

[quote]I don't think we should "worry" about anything, but pray for everythong (but perhaps that is semantics). I'm not saying we don't have time and energy for anything else, but I think we need to unite and prioritze.[/quote]
Again, what force for peace is there in this country among orthodox Christians? We can't prioritize until we give peace some priority in the first place.

[quote]Who's saying we're not peacemakers? I see it all the time. We're just not a bunch of hippies, who are insane about it -- wow that was an intelligent, intriguing, well- articulated statement I just made! [/quote]
Some would say they're not a bunch of fundamenalists who are obsessed with abortion.

I am insane with innocent people being killed. I'll admit it. If bombs were dropping on my home and on my children, I don't know what I would do. but bombs are dropping on the children of other people. They just happen to live in another country, and it's my government dropping those bombs and killing those children and those women and those civilians.

But, we could go on and on about this. Maybe I need to take the initiative and start some kind of movement for peace among orthodox Christians instead of just diagnosing the problem. I'll think about that.

Peace. Good discussion.

[dspen2005]

biting...

[ardillacid]

[quote name='zwergel88' post='1064119' date='Sep 16 2006, 08:44 AM']
Well I usually think political figures are fair game, and it's mostly sarcasm anyway. But come to think of it, I usually have to do a double take with most of you folks, becuase every time I get told that I'm a bad Catholic, and I don't think, act, or say what I should, I have to remind myself that its self-righteous hypocrites and not open minded compassionate people's words that I'm reading.

Needless to say, I think I'm done with Phatmass for a while.
[/quote]
A little bit off topic, but here is why online debates get so fired up. People can say things with no [i]repercussions[/i], things that people wouldn't dare to say face-to-face.

Anywho, play on

Edited September 16, 2006 by notardillacid