The City That Sits On Seven Hills.

[Eutychus]

[quote]Saint Peter was certainly first among equals and even as early as Saint Ignatios of Antioch, we have the written account and exhortation of such primacy. [/quote]

And what VERSE does any other Apostle acknowledge what you so blithely stated above?

There isn't ONE, you and I both know that, and there are many verses, INCLUDING in Peter's own writing that would indicate that even HE saw himself as merely a worker in the field for Jesus.

Given the massive forgeries endemic in the latter centuries of the first milleniem and thereafter, frankly many question the foundational validity of these documents . And as I have continually asked, how come no one ever responds to the FACT that the Franciscan's in Jerusalem FOUND the bones of Peter interred in the mout of Olives, published a book, and POOF....the coverup came into play big time.

The Petrine claims to supremacy, are non existant, and the succession aspect is even moreso, frankly ludicrous given the procession of hundreds of corrupt, incompetant, thugs, buggery and thuggery that constitutes an honest assesment of the line of malcontents that managed to murder and bribe thier way onto that throne.

[url="http://biblelight.net/peters-jerusalem-tomb.htm"]http://biblelight.net/peters-jerusalem-tomb.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.leaderu.com/theology/burialcave.html"]http://www.leaderu.com/theology/burialcave.html[/url]

[Oik]

Eutychus,

I am not sure exactly what you are looking for.

You have quickly and cooly dismissed a few thousand years of accepted Apostolic tradition for both East and West.

You dismissed the writings of the Early Church.

I am very surprised you have not dismissed the Bible. The canon was not formally recognized until later. The Canon you accept was formally recognized much much much later.


As for the question of Saint Peter's bones, why don't you question that?


On the statement of burial and the questioning of primacy, I can only refer you to the writings of the Early Church. If you reuse the testimony handed down, what else can a saw to you?

As for the bones of Saint Peter, what relevance is it? What does it matter where he was buried or not buried? The Peterine office has nothing to do with bones or seats or cities. It is Saint Peter who makes Rome, not Rome who makes Saint Peter.

Saint Ignatios confirms the primacy. Clement and other confirm it.

As for the claim that Saint Peter never writes of his own primacy, nor other affirm it, I am not sure what you mean here. Not all of tradition is written in the Bible. The Christian accepts Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. This is especially important because it is the Sacred tradition that was the rule used to codify Sacred Scripture.

But, even if you wanted to point to the precurser of the priesthood, primacy, and hierarchy, you yourself are more than capable of seeking out those various happenings and influences in and from Judasim, both in Praxis and Doxa.

[KnightofChrist]

Eutychus,

Well seems you've highjacked this thread... guess its all you can do when you can not answer the tough questions asked of you, by me and others. If you would like to debate the primacy of peter, then start another thread. However if you wish to be a man, or an adult and answer the tough questions asked of you, then do so, if not I will take your refusal, and/or inability to answer as your defeat in this Debate, and every chance you give me, I will point it out yoru defeat to you, and others. As well as your and Budge's defeat in the theard "The Seven Missing Books." Its what you do in debates if you prove someone to be wrong, defeat them on a subject and that person keeps on bringing that topic up, you point out to that person that they have already been defeated on that subject.

I await your answers, or your defeat.
Peace in Christ,
KoC

[Socrates]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1063602' date='Sep 15 2006, 03:01 PM']
And what VERSE does any other Apostle acknowledge what you so blithely stated above?

There isn't ONE, you and I both know that, and there are many verses, INCLUDING in Peter's own writing that would indicate that even HE saw himself as merely a worker in the field for Jesus.[/quote]
And following Peter, Pope Benedict XVI said the same of himself after being elected Pope.
Another title of the Papacy is "Servant of the Servants of God."


[quote]Given the massive forgeries endemic in the latter centuries of the first milleniem and thereafter, frankly many question the foundational validity of these documents . And as I have continually asked, how come no one ever responds to the FACT that the Franciscan's in Jerusalem FOUND the bones of Peter interred in the mout of Olives, published a book, and POOF....the coverup came into play big time.[/quote]
And this from the man who expects us to uncritically swallow all that conspiracy-theory nonsense about the Jesuits starting the Civil War and assasinating Lincoln?


[quote]The Petrine claims to supremacy, are non existant, and the succession aspect is even moreso, frankly ludicrous given the procession of hundreds of corrupt, incompetant, thugs, buggery and thuggery that constitutes an honest assesment of the line of malcontents that managed to murder and bribe thier way onto that throne.

[url="http://biblelight.net/peters-jerusalem-tomb.htm"]http://biblelight.net/peters-jerusalem-tomb.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.leaderu.com/theology/burialcave.html"]<a href="http://www.leaderu.com/theology/burialcave.html" target="_blank">http://www.leaderu.com/theology/burialcave.html[/url]</a>[/quote]
Buggery, thuggery, yada, yada, yada . . .
Nice rhymes. How about a little substance?
Anyway, on to business . . .

As for evidence of Petrine Supremacy, we can start with Matthew 16:18-19:[quote]And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.[/quote]
Yes, it's one of those Bible verses Catholics like to repeat over and over, but it's also one anti-Catholics brush aside repeatedly.
If Christ did not intend to give Peter any special authority, what was Christ doing here? Was Christ just fooling around with all that "bound in heaven" stuff?

Here's just a few resources:

[b][url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Peter_and_the_Papacy.asp"]Peter and the Papacy[/url]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Authority_of_the_Pope_Part_1.asp"]Authority of the Pope (from the Early Church Fathers)[/url]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Origins_of_Peter_as_Pope.asp"]Origins of Peter as Pope[/url]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Peter_Successors.asp"]Peter's Successors (Church Fathers)[/url]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Was_Peter_in_Rome.asp"]Was Peter in Rome?[/url]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9202vbv.asp"]Peter's Primacy in the Bible[/url]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1996/9610eaw.asp"]More on Peter's Primacy from Scripture[/url]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9805chap.asp"]Peter and Galatians[/url][/b]

Edited September 16, 2006 by Socrates

[Eutychus]

[quote]I am not sure exactly what you are looking for.

You have quickly and cooly dismissed a few thousand years of accepted Apostolic tradition for both East and West.

You dismissed the writings of the Early Church. [/quote]

Yes, I did.

And here is why....

[quote] Built Upon Forgeries and Created Myths?


The Donation of Constantine was a known forgery that was used by Pope Stephen III (752-757) against the Franks, which successfully increase the powers and influence of the Roman Church. In the year 753 the Lombards threatened Rome, a barbarian tribe from the Baltic. Stephen approached Pepin, the king of the Franks. The Roman bishop showed the Frankish king a document that purports to be dated 30th March 315; a document that came to be called The Donation of Constantine The document tells the story of how Emperor Constantine, after being miraculously healed of leprosy, gave Pope Sylvester I (314-335), the regions of Italy surrounding Rome and pronounced Rome supreme over the other main centers of the church, namely, Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria and Jerusalem.

----------------------
It is important to add that Gregory not only used fake documents, he had a whole school set up to manufacture still more fraudulent documents:



Pepin, the king of the Franks.

this will become important in later studies


Now to my main point

Peter Says
there will arise a group of men that will do these things in order to bring into the church
Damnable Heresies
heresies that will beaver dam those who do and espouse these thing to hell
and they will do these things
Privily



Quote:

* privily #3919


from 3844 and 1521;
to introduce or bring in secretly or craftily


---------

To be dependent on a set of facts or properties in such a way
that change can occur
only after change has occurred in those facts or properties given.

--------


3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you:

* covetousness


avarice, i.e. (by impl.) fraudulency, extortion:— covetous (-ness) practices, greediness.

* with feigned words



To give a false appearance of: feign sleep.
To represent falsely pretend to:
feign authorship.
Spurious Documents = counterfeit[/quote]

[url="http://www.bereanpublishers.com/Cults/The%20Roman%20Catholic%20Church/forged_documents_and_papal_power.htm#3"]DOCUMENT ONE[/url]


Given the MASSIVE level of forgeries, today it is almost impossible to have much faith in any of the so called letters that were entrusted to those forgers in Rome.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1063831' date='Sep 15 2006, 09:13 PM']
Yes, I did.

And here is why....
[url="http://www.bereanpublishers.com/Cults/The%20Roman%20Catholic%20Church/forged_documents_and_papal_power.htm#3"]DOCUMENT ONE[/url]
Given the MASSIVE level of forgeries, today it is almost impossible to have much faith in any of the so called letters that were entrusted to those forgers in Rome.
[/quote]


Amazing is it not? When you believe Early Church writings match your beliefs, you use them, when they do not they become "forgeries" and can not be trusted. Tell us which one of your two sides should we choose?

Offer proof that the documents that Socrates has shown are forgeries, [color="#990000"]you can not because they are not.[/color] You stand defeated, yet again.

[Eutychus]

[quote]Amazing is it not? When you believe Early Church writings match your beliefs, you use them, when they do not they become "forgeries" and can not be trusted. Tell us which one of your two sides should we choose? [/quote]

Go with trusting none of them, that is the safe bet.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1063844' date='Sep 15 2006, 09:37 PM']
Go with trusting none of them, that is the safe bet.
[/quote]

What should we go with not trusting? Early Church Writings, which all Christian Churches trust and use in some way? Or your ever changing opinion?

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1063844' date='Sep 15 2006, 11:37 PM']Go with trusting none of them, that is the safe bet.[/quote]With an attitude like this, it's a wonder that you trust the early Church writings which make up the New Testament.

[Eutychus]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1063876' date='Sep 15 2006, 09:27 PM']
With an attitude like this, it's a wonder that you trust the early Church writings which make up the New Testament.
[/quote]

A concept that is way beyond your pay grade currently is the hepatic structures within scripture. Once understood in it's complete depth, you can verify fairly rapidly if the Holy Spirit inspired a book or not. Fascinating study. Apparently God put in "code verifiers" that today cannot even be duplicated with the most advanced computing systems.

If anyone is mathematically inclined, likes to delve deeply into the sub structure of scripture and is SERIOUS about verification issues...this is well worth the time and effort to explore.

[url="http://www.wordworx.co.nz/panin.html"][b]BIBLE VERIFICATION WITH HEPATIC UNDERPINNINGS ~ GOD's CODE THAT PROVES HUMANS DID NOT INSPIRE THE BIBLE.[/b][/url]

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

I notice that the article you cited shows the Apochrypha as divinely inspired. Does that mean you are going to Follow the Canon of the Apostles? I can send you a new Bible if you don't have one. (seriously, I'm not trying to be snippy or anything)

[Eutychus]

I noticed that one too.

To date, none of the readings have applied the Hepatic tests to the apocraphal writings, that would be interesing indeed.

By the way, I have read them all, they are a fun read for the most part, now if they are scripture....that is another matter.

I would like to have the Book of Enoch elevated some, and Jubilees too, as they are mentioned or strongly alluded to by Peter Jude and Jesus. And one cannot fully grasp the implications of Noah's flood, Joshua's directive to slaughter ALL the inhabitants of the promised land, or for that matter marian apparitions and UFO's without those understandings.

THAT will get everyone going....but prior to Augustine, MY understanding of Nephilim WAS ACTUALLY the Catholic Church's too, until they merged with political Rome and the understandings were changed for obvious reasons.

Best.

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

So if the apocraphal writings DID show the numerical consistency of the Hepatic tests, Would you swich scripture?

[Oik]

Eutychus,

Numbers are abstractions. Granted, there was a great deal of interest in numerology in the Catholic Church at one time. Are you seriously suggesting that there is some secret knowledge to be had? This whole idea of a secret knowledge through a secret code seems to me to be a revival of gnosticism.

Really, I am not sure what your point is. Are you saying numbers are God or that creation is arranged according to numbers?

[Eutychus]

[quote]So if the apocraphal writings DID show the numerical consistency of the Hepatic tests, Would you swich scripture? [/quote]

Frankly, if they did, I would have to really give that option an open ended qualified yes.

[Mateo el Feo]

OK, so you use numerology to prove inspiration...how Biblical.

BTW, why do they call it "Hepatic"? What does numerology have to do with the liver?

[Eutychus]

[quote]BTW, why do they call it "Hepatic"? What does numerology have to do with the liver?[/quote]

Here is a little trick I have learned....

Actually READ the links if you don't understand something. And NO, you won't find this in the diocesan bulletin ever either, nor the Readers Digest Bible in the pew this sunday.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1064490' date='Sep 16 2006, 09:10 PM']
Here is a little trick I have learned....

Actually READ the links if you don't understand something. And NO, you won't find this in the diocesan bulletin ever either, nor the Readers Digest Bible in the pew this sunday.
[/quote]If you can find the word "Hepatic" on the page you linked to, you might have a point. I'll ask again: Why do they call it "Hepatic"?

Another statement of mine could easily have been a question, so I'll re-phrase it. Where in the Holy Bible does it say that we should use numerology to verify its authenticity?

[Winchester]

It's in the kabballa!

Tree of Life!

The Sephiroths!

Stupid Red Bracelet Madonna Wears!

[Socrates]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1063831' date='Sep 15 2006, 09:13 PM']
Yes, I did.

And here is why....
[url="http://www.bereanpublishers.com/Cults/The%20Roman%20Catholic%20Church/forged_documents_and_papal_power.htm#3"]DOCUMENT ONE[/url]
Given the MASSIVE level of forgeries, today it is almost impossible to have much faith in any of the so called letters that were entrusted to those forgers in Rome.
[/quote]
If you read the articles I linked you, you would see that nowhere was the so-called "Donation of Constantine" listed as a source. The Donation of Constantine has absolutely nothing to do with any of the quotes from the Early Church Fathers, which are considered genuine even by most atheists.
The fact that the "Donation" was a forgery has absolutely no bearing on the authenticity of the quotes from the Church Fathers which you so blithely dismiss.
Until you can bring forth specific compelling evidence than any one of these sources used is fake, you have no case.

To simply dismiss the entirety of recorded Christian writings from the first several centuries of the Church as phony, based on an unrelated 8th century forgery concerning land rights, is beyond absurd.
By that standard, we must reject absolutely all ancient records.

And the 19th, 20th, and 21st centuries have certainly seen their share of hoaxes and forgeries. Does this mean we should dismiss the authenticity of absolutely everything written during this time too?

Way to conveniently dismiss all of recorded early Christian writing simply because it happens to contradict own opinions (for which you have produced no historical evidence whatsoever)!

But if you feel compelled to dismiss all of the Church Fathers, three of the articles I cited were based on evidence from Scripture alone, with no reference to the Fathers' writings. (And which you have also failed to refute).


[quote name='Eutychus' post='1063902' date='Sep 15 2006, 10:51 PM']
A concept that is way beyond your pay grade currently is the hepatic structures within scripture. Once understood in it's complete depth, you can verify fairly rapidly if the Holy Spirit inspired a book or not. Fascinating study. Apparently God put in "code verifiers" that today cannot even be duplicated with the most advanced computing systems.

If anyone is mathematically inclined, likes to delve deeply into the sub structure of scripture and is SERIOUS about verification issues...this is well worth the time and effort to explore.

[url="http://www.wordworx.co.nz/panin.html"][b]BIBLE VERIFICATION WITH HEPATIC UNDERPINNINGS ~ GOD's CODE THAT PROVES HUMANS DID NOT INSPIRE THE BIBLE.[/b][/url]
[/quote]
So we are to determine which writings are inspired by [b]numerology[/b] and [b]secret codes[/b]?
Where's it say[i] [b]that[/b][/i] in the Bible?

Where do we get our "Eutychus Decoder Rings" to uncover the truth?