Did The Pope Contradict Himself?

[Budge]

I know the man who wrote this stuff is Catholic, may be of Trad persuasion but not a sedevancantist as least acouple years ago.

Some food for thought.

Nostra Aetate has painted the Vatican into an interesting corner.

[quote]
Did he contradict himself? YES.

If readers think that I’m overstating my case that the pope has contradicted himself or that I am seeing a contradiction that is not even there, here again is what he said on Wednesday, September 20 at St. Peter’s Square:

I wanted to extend an invitation to a dialogue of Christian faith with the modern world and to a dialogue of all cultures and religions. I hope that on different occasions during my visit – for instance, in Munich when I stressed how important it is to respect that which is sacred to others – my profound respect for the great religions, and in particular for the Moslems, who “adore the one God” and with whom we are engaged in “defending and promoting together, for all men, social justice, moral values, peace and freedom” (Nostra Aetate, 3) was clearly apparent.

Quoting Nostra Aetate (which I have previously discussed here), he’s saying that Muslims—not just some Muslims, but “the” Muslims—are engaged with Christians in “defending and promoting together, for all men, social justice, moral values, peace and freedom.” Not only is this a complete, total lie, and an extremely dangerous lie because it puts non-Muslims to sleep about the reality of Islam, but it also is a complete, total contradiction from what he said at Regensburg on September 12:

The emperor goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. “God is not pleased by blood, and not acting reasonably is contrary to God’s nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats.... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death....”

The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: Not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God’s nature. ... for the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality....

In this passage the pope, drawing on Manuel II, is not merely saying that violence in general is incompatible with the nature of God. Though the word Islam doesn’t appear in the passage, from the whole context we know he is saying that Islam in its sacred core calls for the violence that is incompatible with the nature of God. In the second paragraph he does refer specifically to the god of Islam who is utterly other, arbitrary, made of pure will, and thus (connecting back to the first paragraph) also violent. (See my exposition of the paragraph here.) So he is saying that the god of Islam is not compatible with the true God. And he is saying that Islam is a religion of violence against non-Muslims. But in his September 20 quotation of Nostra Aetate, he says that Muslims adore the One God and work with Christians to advance the general good of the human race.

Let me repeat that.

In Regensburg he said the god of Islam is a god of will, violence, and forced conversions. But at St. Peter’s Square he said that Muslims “adore the One God.”

In Regensburg he said that implicit at the core of Islam is war against non-Muslims. But at St. Peter’s Square he said that “the Muslims” are engaged in promoting “social justice, moral values, peace and freedom ... for all men.”

I know there are a lot of people who want to deny that the pope contradicted himself, just as there are a lot of people who denied that his “evil and inhuman” quotation was at all an aggressive act or fighting words. But the truth is plain to see.

For anyone who built a structure of thought based on the pope’s Regensburg address (as I did), his comments at St. Peter’s Square have cut the ground from under one’s feet and the structure has come tumbling down. That doesn’t mean the thoughts themselves are discredited, but it destroys the expectation that there was a new shared direction being established here for the Christian West.

A man in a high position of leadership and respect who carefully enunciates a position on one of the most important issues in the world,—which naturally causes others to study what he has said and to build on it—and then, as the pope has done, totally reverses himself and undercuts his previous statement, is a man who is not to be trusted.

Of course, it would be easy not to feel betrayed by Benedict’s September 20 statement, if you had not thought seriously about—and taken seriously—his September 12 statement.



QUOTE
As a result of what the pope said on the 20th, we now realize that Nostra Aetate is the very framework within which he thinks about Islam and that, as long as it remains so, his criticisms of Islam will never come to a definite and serious point. His criticisms will be no more than unprincipled exceptions to Nostra Aetate, indulged in on occasion, as in the Regensburg address, but soon abandoned.

If the Church is to resist its age-old and now resurgent enemy, the pro-Islam sections of Nostra Aetate must be repealed, or, at least, be allowed to slip into desuetude.[/quote]

So Allah [of Islam] is either a false god of false conversion, violence, capriciousness and against reason or Allah is God according to Nostra Aetate...

I believe this guy is right, the Pope DID CONTRADICT HIMSELF.

[url="http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/006453.html"]LINK[/url]

[cmotherofpirl]

You can worship God, and still get the facts about Him wrong. Look at calvinists, unitarians, mormons, Fred Phelpers etc.

[Budge]

The Catholic idea that worshipping a false god and one of either Satans making or your own making is worshipping God [except you got a few things wrong about Him] is fallicious.

I was a Unitarian, I didnt know "god" from a potted plant and I was on my way to hell.

I was not worshipping God, in fact UUs unknowingly worship Satan when they pray the Lucis Trust Great Invocation.

It wasnt a matter of getting a few "facts" wrong about God, I simply didnt know Him, and that applies to all these false religions.

[Winchester]

Even if the author is right, he's still a Catholic.

Your experience as a Unitarian is not universal to all Unitarians. You're making an error. Just as all Catholics aren't faithful. You really apply the behavior thing across the board, don't you? Does that mean that if a cop violates the SOPs regarding shooting people, that the SOPs actually permit his actions?

[dUSt]

This whole "contradiction" is based off of this claim: "In Regensburg he said the god of Islam is a god of will, violence, and forced conversions."

Devastating to your argument, the pope never said that. Please read the speech here: [url="http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=46474"]http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=46474[/url]

After you read it, please come back and point out to me where the pope said what you claim.

God bless.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1071360' date='Sep 22 2006, 12:29 PM']
This whole "contradiction" is based off of this claim: "In Regensburg he said the god of Islam is a god of will, violence, and forced conversions."

Devastating to your argument, the pope never said that. Please read the speech here: [url="http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=46474"]http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=46474[/url]

After you read it, please come back and point out to me where the pope said what you claim.

God bless.
[/quote]



BOOYAH!

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Budge' post='1071337' date='Sep 22 2006, 11:57 AM']
I know the man who wrote this stuff is Catholic, may be of Trad persuasion but not a sedevancantist as least acouple years ago.

Some food for thought.

Nostra Aetate has painted the Vatican into an interesting corner.
So Allah [of Islam] is either a false god of false conversion, violence, capriciousness and against reason or Allah is God according to Nostra Aetate...

I believe this guy is right, the Pope DID CONTRADICT HIMSELF.

[url="http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/006453.html"]LINK[/url]
[/quote]

You remember the guy's name who wrote this? It looks familiar.

[Farsight one]

[quote name='Budge' post='1071347' date='Sep 22 2006, 12:06 PM']
The Catholic idea that worshipping a false god and one of either Satans making or your own making is worshipping God [except you got a few things wrong about Him] is fallicious.

I was a Unitarian, I didnt know "god" from a potted plant and I was on my way to hell.

I was not worshipping God, in fact UUs unknowingly worship Satan when they pray the Lucis Trust Great Invocation.

It wasnt a matter of getting a few "facts" wrong about God, I simply didnt know Him, and that applies to all these false religions.
[/quote]Then it would be horrible for you to learn that according to your own logic of "getting a few things wrong about God is not actually believing in the real God" means that you do not believe in the true God either. You cannot get it all right. You cannot completely know him. He is God! You are human, and just like all humans, are flawed, along with your perception of what/who/where God is.

Some people have a more flawed perception than others, but that cannot by default make them an unbeliever. Everyone from primitive island natives to the worlds leading astronomers have have a concept of the universe. Some have a much better understanding of it than others. Some have a horrible flawed understanding of it. Some have concepts about the universe that they believe to be true when they are actually false, but they all know that the universe exists and they all believe "in" the real universe.

[Budge]

Reread the article, it is pointed out how the god of Islam in the quote is not based on reason and only on transcendence.

The Pope cant have it both ways.

[quote]Some people have a more flawed perception than others, but that cannot by default make them an unbeliever.[/quote]

So believing in 'SOMETHING' is all it takes?

So all those fellow Unitarian-Universalists..the pagan and theists at least who beleived in powers greater then them are "believers" [in the ONE TRUE GOD] in your book and simply are wrong about a few things?

One reason the WEST is so confused and being taken by over Islamic Dhimmitude, is the liberalism has duped many into believing Allah [of Islam] is God too!

[Anomaly]

reREAD the Article AND the [font="Courier New"]Pope's speech[/font].

[size=3]God is [font="System"]reasonable in His interactions [/font] with [/size] Humanity so [u]we[/u] can [size=5]comprehend and know God[/size].

[size=5]God Trancends the[/size] [color="#000099"]necessities of the world [/color] because they don't inject [size=5]'needs' upon God[/size].

[b]It only takes a 6th [size=2]grade standard [/size] [/b] of proficiency for the [u]required concept [/u] comprehension.

[Budge]

So is Allah [of Islam] REASONABLE?

the false spirit that orders jihad right in the Koran over and over?

The Pope cant hold to the Nostra Aetate claim that Allah [of Islam] is God while at the same time claim jihad violence is NOT of God.

Saying Jihad is not from God is basically saying Islam is not from God.

Nostra Aetate contests that.

The Pope cant have it both ways.

[quote]
I wished to explain that not religion and violence, but religion and reason, go together. [font="Arial Black"]I hope that my profound respect for world religions and for Muslims, who "worship the one God"[/font] and with whom we "promote peace, liberty, social justice and moral values for the benefit of all humanity" (Nostra Aetate, 3), is clear. Let us continue the dialogue both between religions and between modern reason and the Christian faith! [/quote]

So is the Pope now saying REASON and ISLAM go together or HAVE THE POTENTIAL OF GOING TOGETHER?

[url="http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20060920&fname=pope&sid=1"]LINK[/url]

With leaders this confused, so wonder this board is full of interfaith confusion.

Edited September 22, 2006 by Budge

[Anomaly]

[size=3]If the [font="Fixedsys"]POPE[/font] is talking [/size] about the [size=4]God of Abraham[/size], wouldn't that be the SAME GOD?

Or are you a pantheist that believes [u]a [font="Century Gothic"]God is [i]created [/i] by communal belief[/font][/u]. Kinda like [size=4]mass hysteria[/size].

[Aloysius]

Budge, I'd like to know what you think of my post... in which in one breath I find myself not faulting either one pope for beginning dialogue with muslims by claiming we aim towards the same God (notice, in official documents like Nostra Aete and the CCC, the context of allah being the same god <if i'm not mistaken> always uses a verb whose subject is the muslims, not the subject of God or Allah as in 'god is allah' or 'allah is god', but 'the muslims [attempt to] worship the one true God'... it's all from the basis of their actions, not of God's essence

post: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=57520"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=57520[/url]

anyway, their actions are attempts to find the one true God as I understand it. God's substance is not the same as Allah.

[Budge]

[quote]If the POPE is talking about the God of Abraham, wouldn't that be the SAME GOD?[/quote]

Allah [of Islam] is not the God of Abraham

The Koran may say so, but why believe the Koran? Why believe a religion that is authored by the father of lies and has the fruits of the deceiver?

Ive read some of the Koran, the qualities of Allah are not those of Jehovah.

Allah is capricious.

It is even written in the Koran that Allah is the author of evil and a schemer.
[quote]
And (the unbelievers) schemed and planned, and Allah schemed also, and the best of schemers is Allah. S. 3:54[/quote]

Allah supports sin.
[quote]
Verily Allah has fixed the very portion of adultery which a man will indulge in, and which he of necessity must commit (or there would be no escape from it)." Sahih Muslim #6421, 6422
[/quote]

Allah teaches kill the unbeliever and "infidel"
[quote]
Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39[/quote]

According to scriptural tests because Allah and the Koran denies Jesus Christ, he and it are antichrist.

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

{Jesus is directly denied in Surah 4}
[size=5]
How could Allah be God, while being antichrist?
[/size]
That makes no sense.

Actually Im worried more about the interfaithers being the pantheists around here.

They seem to see God only in fuzzy terms as a FORCE of all religions more then Who God truly is. It seems you believe far more in the god of communal belief.

[Anomaly]

Didn't Luther say if you must sin, to sin MIGHTILY?

Can it be denominationalists are trying to get to the same point but wander off because they're making their own map?

Eat my flesh, dunk yourself under water, which son of Abraham, don't get wet, listen to the Pope, listen to yourself, listen to the preacher on TV or buy Dr. Somebody's book that will explain it.

Some obscure directions, just different compasses.

Budge, you make me laugh. Sorry about the plain text. The pointed sarcasm was wasted though I enjoyed it.


Really, it's really ridiculous. A bunch of people arguing who has defined God the most accurately so you can carry his description in you zippered denomination book and pat yourself on the back you've got it right because look at all the others who have it wrong. God is somethings and isn't other things. Our misunderstandings don't create a new God that's different from their God. We all can't be right and we all can't be wrong though it makes it easier to identify the goat living next door.

Edited September 22, 2006 by Anomaly

[Budge]

[quote]Budge, I'd like to know what you think of my post... in which in one breath I find myself not faulting either one pope for beginning dialogue with muslims by claiming we aim towards the same God (notice, in official documents like Nostra Aete and the CCC, the context of allah being the same god <if i'm not mistaken> always uses a verb whose subject is the muslims, not the subject of God or Allah as in 'god is allah' or 'allah is god', but 'the muslims [attempt to] worship the one true God'... it's all from the basis of their actions, not of God's essence[/quote]

Telling Muslims you already know God too is a lie that will lead them to hell.

If I had been told the same thing as a UU, instead of the saving gospel of Jesus Christ, I would be as lost as well.

Are Muslims really people who are seeking god, or mostly folks who believe a false religion that they believe has given them the truth when it is not?

One can ATTEMPT to worship the one true god all they want and STILL GET IT WRONG.

Worshipping a false god, of any kind doesnt get you to heaven.

Heres the facts unless you are worshipping the one true God, have become a born again believer in Christ and have embraced the true gospel not another gospel or false religion, you are going to be sunk.

This Im Ok, You're Ok, we all love 'God' together stuff, is false and leading no one to God.

Allah teaches his followers to kill infidels...

Allah teaches it is ok to beat your wife with a stick the size of a thumb.

Allah teaches that women have far more chance of hell then men.

This may make some of you upset but the Catholic church has definitely marked itself as antichrist, by teaching in Nostra Aetate that Allah [of Islam] equals God.








[quote]Didn't Luther say if you must sin, to sin MIGHTILY?[/quote]

I am not a Lutheran.

I do not claim perfection for the men of the Reformation, some of which held some Roman baggage.

[quote]

Can it be denominationalists are trying to get to the same point but wander off because they're making their own map?[/quote]

Own map?

Allah isnt God, all I have to do is read the Bible for that one.

I already encountered an endless slew of false gods,[demons and false spirits] in the UU church where all false religions are brought together as one...[including Islam]

I dont remember Jesus ever teaching Listen to the Pope.

Why would you defend a false god that denies Jesus Christ and salvation in Him?

Who is your Father?

[Aloysius]

read my post in that thread (I know it's somewhat long, but you just posted a thread that's long too). I said I do not fault the popes who start saying "yes, the God of Abraham (who you aim towards, who you [attempt to] worship) is the One True God, now let's look at who He really is"... but nor do I fault the popes... neigh I even lean more towards their side... who said that the muslims worship satan.

Nostra Aete teaches muslims "adore the one God". this is an action by the muslims, originated by the muslims, solely done by the muslims. how do they "adore the one God"? they identify the God of Abraham, the God of Jesus, they identify the God of the Jews and Christians when they direct their worship towards a god.

if this document had said "Allah is God" I would stand right there with you and either go very rad trad, sedevacantist, or some form of very traditional protestant if they could answer some other problems I had

but as it stands, it does not. it says muslims adore the one God, and I can accept that. they identify Him and point their worship and prayers towards Him. I might think it's not as forcefully opposed to islam as it ought to be; as some of the great popes of the past had been; but I cannot find fault with it.

[Budge]

[quote]I said I do not fault the popes who start saying "yes, the God of Abraham (who you aim towards, who you [attempt to] worship) is the One True God, now let's look at who He really is"... but nor do I fault the popes... neigh I even lean more towards their side... who said that the muslims worship satan.[/quote]


Why not get off the fence, and stop making excuses for Popes who seriously are confused.

This is the problem when men put their own authority above God's Word.

The Popes today, definitely have rejected all those warnings in the Bible about "false gods"

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Budge' post='1071922' date='Sep 22 2006, 06:11 PM']
Who is your Father?[/quote]His name was Stan.

Who's your Mom?

I don't recall Jesus telling his Apostles or followers not to listen to each other, do you?

I don't recall Jesus telling his Apostles or followers that they only have to read about God in a book, do you?

I don't recall Jesus telling any of his followers that they must belong to a certain group or you are against God, do you?

If you have, please provide the relevant scripture passage.

[Budge]

[quote]
Nostra Aete teaches muslims "adore the one God". this is an action by the muslims, originated by the muslims, solely done by the muslims. how do they "adore the one God"? they identify the God of Abraham, the God of Jesus, they identify the God of the Jews and Christians when they direct their worship towards a god.[/quote]

That IS SAYING Allah is God.

Muslims adore the one God...

When Nostra Aetate says this, it DEFINITELY is saying Allah is God..
[quote]
who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even [u]His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God.[/u] Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when [u]God[/u] will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. [u]Finally, they value the moral life and worship God[/u] especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.[/quote]

Right there where it says they WORSHIP GOD...it is saying Allah is God.

How direct of a statement do you need?

[quote]

but as it stands, it does not. it says muslims adore the one God, and I can accept that. they identify Him and point their worship and prayers towards Him.[/quote]

The one true God is the God of the Bible...if you believe that Islamics are worshipping the ONE TRUE GOD OF the Bible, you believe then that that Allah is the same God, even if 'they got a few things wrong.'




[quote]
I don't recall Jesus telling his Apostles or followers that they only have to read about God in a book, do you?[/quote]

When one rejects God's Word as a guide, they have basically are a stumbling around in the dark, so wonder they think the demons of false religions represent God...