Did The Pope Contradict Himself?

[Aloysius]

again, "they adore God" is not the same as "allah is God"... if one directs their worship towards the one true God, then one worships the one true God. but allah as described by the koran and all islamic theology and understanding is not that God.

I know it screams to your scratch-the-surface fundamentalism of confusion and evil... but subtleties can be good and important.

their fundamental and total substantial understand of allah speaks to me of them understand a pagan god. but they direct worship towards Our God... and as such I cannot find fault in the statement that they "worship the One God"

please... a little bit of depth will go a long way towards identifying where the real enemies, falsehoods, and mistruths are.

[Budge]

[quote]
their fundamental and total substantial understand of allah speaks to me of them understand a pagan god. but they direct worship towards Our God... and as such I cannot find fault in the statement that they "worship the One God"[/quote]

So basically you believe they are worshipping God, just that they 'misunderstand' Him.

This to be honest is what I was taught while UU, course while there was no one true church or religion, all UU ministers taught that false religions all had archetypes of God. That it was impossible for man to truly to KNOW God, but that all religions had a piece of the puzzle so to speak.

I definitely no longer believe that way and that is where we definitely part ways.

My belief is that they are worshipping a false god, and in bondage to a false religion and a false spirit.

In fact this demonic spirit is the reason for the evils associated with Islam. I see the people as victims, even reading the memroir of a lady who grew up in Saudia Arabia was absolutely heart-breaking.

Bad rotten fruit all around.

[Aloysius]

3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. [b]They[/b] [u]adore[/u] [i]the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men;[/i] [b]they[/b] [u]take pains to submit[/u] [i]wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom [/i][b]the faith of Islam[/b] [u]takes pleasure in linking[/u] [i]itself, submitted to God. [/i]Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, [b]they[/b] [u]revere [/u][i]Him as a prophet. [/i][b]They[/b] also [u]honor[/u] [i]Mary, His virgin Mother; at times[/i] [b]they[/b] even [u]call [/u][i]on her with devotion.[/i] In addition, [b]they[/b] [u]await[/u] [i] the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead.[/i] Finally, [b]they[/b] [u]value[/u] [i]the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.[/i]


NOTE:
[b]BOLDED STATEMENTS[/b] Subjects of sentences, things that Nostra Aaetae is directly describing
[u]UNDERLINED STATEMENTS[/u] verbs of sentences, things that Nostra Aaetae is directly describing
[i]ITALICIZED STATEMENTS[/i] objects of the verbs (and other parts of speech I didn't discriminate against)... things which Nostra Aeatae is not specifically describing: IT IS DESCRIBING WHAT IS BEING DONE TO THOSE THINGS> simple linguistic skills will show you this.

[Anomaly]

[size=7][b]BUDGE[/b][/size]

[font="Comic Sans Ms"]I don't recall [b]Jesus telling his Apostles [/font] [/b] or followers [size=5]not to listen to each other[/size], do you?

I don't recall [color="#CC6600"]Jesus telling his Apostles [/color] or followers that [size=6][font="Palatino Linotype"]they only have to read [/font] about God in a book[/size], do you?

I [font="Book Antiqua"]don't [u]recall Jesus telling any of his followers [/font] that they must belong[/u] to a [b]certain group [/b] or you are against God, do you?

[u]If you have, [i][size=6]please[/size][/i] provide [/u] the [size=6]relevant [u]scripture [/size] [b]pass[/u]age.[/b]

[Budge]

[quote]I don't recall Jesus telling any of his followers that they must belong to a certain group or you are against God, do you?[/quote]

Actually yes, HE DID tell them they must belong to a CERTAIN GROUP...
[size=5]
Mat 12:30 [u]He that is not with me is against me[/u]; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.[/size]

This would include Muslims, UUs, and any other false religion that rejects Jesus Christ and is "not with him"

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1072006' date='Sep 22 2006, 08:40 PM']
3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. [b]They[/b] [u]adore[/u] [i]the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men;[/i] [b]they[/b] [u]take pains to submit[/u] [i]wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom [/i][b]the faith of Islam[/b] [u]takes pleasure in linking[/u] [i]itself, submitted to God. [/i]Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, [b]they[/b] [u]revere [/u][i]Him as a prophet. [/i][b]They[/b] also [u]honor[/u] [i]Mary, His virgin Mother; at times[/i] [b]they[/b] even [u]call [/u][i]on her with devotion.[/i] In addition, [b]they[/b] [u]await[/u] [i] the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead.[/i] Finally, [b]they[/b] [u]value[/u] [i]the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.[/i]
NOTE:
[b]BOLDED STATEMENTS[/b] Subjects of sentences, things that Nostra Aaetae is directly describing
[u]UNDERLINED STATEMENTS[/u] verbs of sentences, things that Nostra Aaetae is directly describing
[i]ITALICIZED STATEMENTS[/i] objects of the verbs (and other parts of speech I didn't discriminate against)... things which Nostra Aeatae is not specifically describing: IT IS DESCRIBING WHAT IS BEING DONE TO THOSE THINGS> simple linguistic skills will show you this.
[/quote]
They [the muslims] adore (the One True God)
They [the muslims] take pains to submit (to the decrees of the One True God)
the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself (to Abraham)
They [the muslims] revere (Jesus as a prophet)
They [the muslims] honor (Mary, Jesus' Mother)
They [the muslims] await (the day of judgement)
They [the muslims] value (the moral life)
They [the muslims] worship (God) through prayer, almsgiving and fasting

The document was not saying anything about the above parenthetical phrases. It only said things about what the muslims and the faith of islam were doing, and acknowledged where the muslims were directing these things towards (towards our God)

[Winchester]

Jesus also said "He that is not against us is with us."

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Budge' post='1072032' date='Sep 22 2006, 06:50 PM']
Actually yes, HE DID tell them they must belong to a CERTAIN GROUP...
[size=5]
Mat 12:30 [u]He that is not with me is against me[/u]; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.[/size]

This would include Muslims, UUs, and any other false religion that rejects Jesus Christ and is "not with him"
[/quote]
Super!
[size=4]And in Matthew, Jesus pointed [/size] says [size=3]that casting [i]out demons[/size] is a[font="Century Gothic"] sign [/i] of God's power[/font].

But in [u]Luke, the Apostles question [/u] Jesus about others who were casting out demon's in Jesus' [u]name, but they weren't [/u] [size=5]a member of their group. They had your attitude and [size=2]asked Jesus if [i]they [/size] should [/i] make [/size] them stop.

[u]Whats[font="Book Antiqua"] up with [/u] that [/font] [size=5]conundrum?[/size]

[Budge]

Jesus was NOT referring to Muslim exorcists...

[b]You forgot a core part of Mark 9[/b]
[quote]
And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils[b] in thy name[/b], and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us[/quote]

Not in Allah or Muhammed's name!!!

Jesus's name.

You all really love that universalism dont you, will defend it to no end!

This verse means all true Christians are united in Christ.

Not in Allah..

Sheesh where do you folks come up with some of this stuff? Edited September 23, 2006 by Budge

[Anomaly]

What about Catholics?

I'm not a 'universalist' either...

Edited September 23, 2006 by Anomaly

[Winchester]

Yeah, I gotta go with Budge on that one there.

There's plenty of supposed exorcists casting out demons, but only in Jesus's name is it acceptable to us.

The fact is, Muslims seem to be trying to worship the God of Abraham. They have a flawed concept. They say some things that are true and some that are not. We can accept the true and recognize what we think is a mistake. They are not atheists. Are they rejecting Christ? We do not know, because that rejection takes place in one's heart. They probably don't know who Christ is.

Let's remember that the doctrine of the Trinity horrified Mohammed, who misunderstood, thinking we had begun teaching that there were multiple gods. He misunderstood. The foundation of his religion is a misunderstanding. That which flows out of it--the repugnant parts of it--are an occassion of grace for us. We can see that without Christ, we are set adrift, and though we may have our eyes on the proper star, without a rudder, our boat will drift off course.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1072048' date='Sep 22 2006, 08:57 PM']
They [the muslims] adore (the One True God)
They [the muslims] take pains to submit (to the decrees of the One True God)
the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself (to Abraham)
They [the muslims] revere (Jesus as a prophet)
They [the muslims] honor (Mary, Jesus' Mother)
They [the muslims] await (the day of judgement)
They [the muslims] value (the moral life)
They [the muslims] worship (God) through prayer, almsgiving and fasting

The document was not saying anything about the above parenthetical phrases. It only said things about what the muslims and the faith of islam were doing, and acknowledged where the muslims were directing these things towards (towards our God)
[/quote]
bump for nostra aeate... which I probably mispell each time I type it out instead of copy/pasting it

[dUSt]

Budge, your logic allows only the God in your mind to be the one true God. Let me explain.

You say God, according to how Islam describes him, is a false God--on the basis of their beliefs about God not being in perfect alignment with what you believe about God.

So, if we logically follow that same line of thought, then the Jewish God is a false God. The Catholic God is a false God. The Lutheran God is a false God. The Methodist God is a false God. The only true God is the one that aligns with all of [b]your[/b] beliefs about Him.

Don't you see why this reverse way of thinking doesn't make sense? God is not negotiable or exist based on what we believe about Him. He is there, unmoving, and unchanging, regardless of how we interpret who He is. There is only one true God. Period.

To break it down even further, if we bothed believed the exact same things about God, except that I thought he had grey hair, and you thought he had white hair, I suppose I'd be worshipping a false God, huh?

That's ridiculous.

Oh... and you STILL have not addressed my first point, but continue to carry on as if you did.

God bless.

[Budge]

[quote]
So, if we logically follow that same line of thought, then the Jewish God is a false God. The Catholic God is a false God. The Lutheran God is a false God. The Methodist God is a false God. The only true God is the one that aligns with all of your beliefs about Him.[/quote]

And if we follow your logic, any god will do.

Shiva, Krishna, Allah, Zoraster, Baal.....

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='Budge' post='1072187' date='Sep 22 2006, 09:33 PM']
And if we follow your logic, any god will do.

Shiva, Krishna, Allah, Zoraster, Baal.....
[/quote]

Out of curiosity, what happens to your current god if you change your mind again and switch religions again? Was that one ultimately the wrong and a false god?

[Socrates]

[quote name='CatholicCid' post='1072198' date='Sep 22 2006, 09:37 PM']
Out of curiosity, what happens to your current god if you change your mind again and switch religions again? Was that one ultimately the wrong and a false god?
[/quote]
Yeah, it's good Budge worships the One True God of the Southern Baptists, rather than that false demon worshiped by Euty's Evangelical non-denoms!

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1072228' date='Sep 22 2006, 09:47 PM']
Yeah, it's good Budge worships the One True God of the Southern Baptists, rather than that false demon worshiped by Euty's Evangelical non-denoms!
[/quote]

Or the god she worshipped before that... or before that...

[Farsight one]

[quote name='Budge' post='1072062' date='Sep 22 2006, 08:13 PM']
Not in Allah or Muhammed's name!!!

Jesus's name.
[/quote]What's in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. Are you really implying that because they call Him "Allah" instead of "God" that they believe in a false god? Who cares what we call Him(provided we don't blaspheme). The name by which we refer to God is irrelevent, as long as our concept of Him is not horribly off.

I would not say that a polytheist believes in the one true God. That would be ridiculus. Some religions also say that their god can die. I would not say that is belief in the one true God. Yes, Jesus came and died for our sins. That's not quite what I mean. When they believe that their god can die, I mean DIE die. As in no more. No resurrection/whatever. I would not say that someone who believes that their god is evil is worshipping the one true God either, as kind and loving as at the core of what God is.

You say that muslims do not believe that Jesus is God and therefore do not believe in the real God. I say that since muslims believe in the real God, they DO believe that Jesus is God, whether they know it or not. Your argument implys separation between Jesus and God when in reality they are one and the same. This mentality and way of talking of yours is what freaked Mohammad in the first place.

Edited September 23, 2006 by Farsight one

[Budge]

[quote]they DO believe that Jesus is God, whether they know it or not.[/quote]

Ok that explains everything....

Where do some of you come up with this stuff?

[Aloysius]

they don't believe Jesus is God, they believe in allah who neither begets nor is begotten and is above reason (but of course, Jesus is the eternal Logos, the eternal reason)

be careful not to go too far and off the deep end in reaction to budge's comments. as Catholics we believe that on the muslims end, on their actions and on their directions, they're directing their worship, prayers, belief towards the One True God (of Abraham, of Iassac, of Jesus).... but on God's end only Christian worship is truly pleasing to Him... and on the muslim's end their understanding of him is their own construction of a false god even if they direct their prayers towards the true God.

shiva, krishna, zeus, et al are not proper names for God. a rose by any other name would smell as sweet but a god by any other name is heresy, blasphemy, and paganism. if folks of those religions were to keep their constructions of one of those gods and keep those names for god but were to focus their prayers towards the One True God, the God of Abraham et cetera, then they would be directing their worship towards the one true God but their zeus, their shiva, or their krishna would still be a pagan god. The allah of the muslims is, in this same respect, a pagan god.