What I Believe

[NewReformation]

Since Budge has asked so nicely.

I believe in God the Father, Almighty Maker of heaven and earth. I believe in God the Son, Jesus Christ, forever existent with the Father, begotten-not created. I believe that Jesus Christ stepped down from heaven to be born of the Virgin Mary, lived a perfect, sinless life, died on the cross as the perfect Sacrifice which atones for my sins. I believe He was resurrected on the Third Day. He ascended to the heavens, and sits at the right hand of the Father. I belive that Christ will one day return to take the believers home to Glory, and the unbelievers cast into Judgement(hell). I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Godhead, who indwells all believers and convicts of sin and righteousness. I believe that the local church is an autonomous organization. I believe in the universal church, that is to say, that all believers are part of the Body of Christ, past, present, and future. I believe that the church was instituted by Christ during His ministry on earth. I believe in Baptism for Believers, and that it is an ordinance created by Christ to show ones affiliation with His Body. I believe in the Lord's Supper, as a symbol for the death of Christ, by which we are to remember His Sacrifice. Those who partake unworthily are to beware, for partaking of the Lord's Supper unworthily may result in being brought home early. I look forward to the ressurection of the dead and the life to come with Christ.

Oh yeah, Amen.

[Cam42]

Here is what I believe. Good luck reading the Ms. Budge:

Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipoténtem, factórem cæli et terræ, visibílium ómnium et invisibílium. Et in unum Dóminum Iesum Christum, Fílium Dei unigénitum. Et ex Patre natum ante ómnia sæcula. Deum de Deo, lumen de lúmine, Deum verum de Deo vero. Génitum, non factum, consubstantiálem Patri: per quem ómnia facta sunt. Qui propter nos hómines et propter nostram salútem descéndit de cælis et incarnátus est de Spíritu Sancto ex María Vírgine: Et homo factus est. Crucifíxus étiam pro nobis: sub Póntio Piláto passus, et sepúltus est. Et resurréxit tértia die, secúndum Scriptúras. Et ascéndit in cælum: sedet ad déxteram Patris. Et íterum ventúrus est cum glória judicáre vivos et mórtuos: cujus regni non erit finis. Et in Spíritum Sanctum, Dóminum et vivificántem: qui ex Patre Filióque procédit. Qui cum Patre, et Fílio simul adorátur, et conglorifícatur: qui locútus est per Prophétas. Et unam, sanctam, cathólicam et apostólicam Ecclésiam. Confíteor unum baptísma in remissiónem peccatorum. Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum. Et vitam ventúri sæculi. Amen.

BTW, I speak Latin. So does Raphael. He is a bit better at it than me. But this is the most accurate way to express by understanding of the Faith.

Benedicte.

[NewReformation]

[quote name='Cam42' post='1078602' date='Sep 28 2006, 10:32 PM']
Here is what I believe. Good luck reading the Ms. Budge:

Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipoténtem, factórem cæli et terræ, visibílium ómnium et invisibílium. Et in unum Dóminum Iesum Christum, Fílium Dei unigénitum. Et ex Patre natum ante ómnia sæcula. Deum de Deo, lumen de lúmine, Deum verum de Deo vero. Génitum, non factum, consubstantiálem Patri: per quem ómnia facta sunt. Qui propter nos hómines et propter nostram salútem descéndit de cælis et incarnátus est de Spíritu Sancto ex María Vírgine: Et homo factus est. Crucifíxus étiam pro nobis: sub Póntio Piláto passus, et sepúltus est. Et resurréxit tértia die, secúndum Scriptúras. Et ascéndit in cælum: sedet ad déxteram Patris. Et íterum ventúrus est cum glória judicáre vivos et mórtuos: cujus regni non erit finis. Et in Spíritum Sanctum, Dóminum et vivificántem: qui ex Patre Filióque procédit. Qui cum Patre, et Fílio simul adorátur, et conglorifícatur: qui locútus est per Prophétas. Et unam, sanctam, cathólicam et apostólicam Ecclésiam. Confíteor unum baptísma in remissiónem peccatorum. Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum. Et vitam ventúri sæculi. Amen.

BTW, I speak Latin. So does Raphael. He is a bit better at it than me. But this is the most accurate way to express by understanding of the Faith.

Benedicte.
[/quote]

Oh! I know what it says!

But I'm not telling.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='NewReformation' post='1078604' date='Sep 28 2006, 11:33 PM']
Oh! I know what it says!

But I'm not telling.
[/quote]
I don't think it would be that hard to figure out.

In any event...NewReformation, the fact that you're willing to put it into the form of a creed is cool with me. I'm open for discussion of these things if you are. It's been a long time since I've had a discussion that wasn't all debate.

[NewReformation]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1078613' date='Sep 28 2006, 10:42 PM']
I don't think it would be that hard to figure out.

In any event...NewReformation, the fact that you're willing to put it into the form of a creed is cool with me. I'm open for discussion of these things if you are. It's been a long time since I've had a discussion that wasn't all debate.
[/quote]

I'm game. Where do you wanna start?

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='NewReformation' post='1078597' date='Sep 29 2006, 01:22 AM']
Since Budge has asked so nicely.

I believe in God the Father, Almighty Maker of heaven and earth. I believe in God the Son, Jesus Christ, forever existent with the Father, begotten-not created. I believe that Jesus Christ stepped down from heaven to be born of the Virgin Mary, lived a perfect, sinless life, died on the cross as the perfect Sacrifice which atones for my sins. I believe He was resurrected on the Third Day. He ascended to the heavens, and sits at the right hand of the Father. I belive that Christ will one day return to take the believers home to Glory, and the unbelievers cast into [color="#FF0000"]Judgement(hell)[/color] [b][All men will be judged, so judgment and hell are not the same thing][/b]. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Godhead, who indwells all believers and convicts of sin and righteousness. [color="#FF0000"]I believe that the local church is an autonomous organization[/color][b] [The New Testament is made up of letters to churches divided by geography to which the apostles exercised authority over][/b]. I believe in the universal church, that is to say, that all believers are part of the Body of Christ, past, present, and future [b][Have you heard of "The Church Militant, the Church Suffering, and the Church Triumphant, that is what you are describing here][/b]. I believe that the church was instituted by Christ during His ministry on earth. [color="#FF0000"]I believe in Baptism for Believers, and that it is an ordinance created by Christ to show ones affiliation with His Body[/color] [b][Scripturally, baptism is never considered 'ordinance'. It is however given emphasis over and over again to the covenantal effect of baptism][/b]. I believe in the Lord's Supper, as a symbol for the death of Christ, by which we are to remember His Sacrifice. Those who partake unworthily are to beware, for partaking of the Lord's Supper unworthily may result in being brought home early. I look forward to the ressurection of the dead and the life to come with Christ.

Oh yeah, Amen.
[/quote]

It's interesting that baptists really don't like creeds, but you have made for yourself here a creed. And it's almost Catholic - save what I've highlighted in red. You're close to being able to come home to the visible part of the Church on earth that Christ instituted in the New Covenant. Do you understand the deeply rooted history behind the Nicene Creed which some of your own creed takes after? Have you read the exchanges between Nestorius and Cyril? The Nestorian heresy rested first on his denial of Mary as the Mother of God - and through that he denied the divinity of Christ. I don't think many non-Catholics realize what they are saying when they say "begotten, not made". That is a very pregnant statement. I'd be happy to explore it more with you.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='NewReformation' post='1078615' date='Sep 28 2006, 11:43 PM']
I'm game. Where do you wanna start?
[/quote]
Doesn't matter much. You seem not to have so many disagreements until it gets to the Church and the Sacraments. I suppose one of those topics might be best. I just long for some good, civil, ecumenical dialogue.

[NewReformation]

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='1078618' date='Sep 28 2006, 10:44 PM']
It's interesting that baptists really don't like creeds, but you have made for yourself here a creed. And it's almost Catholic - save what I've highlighted in red. You're close to being able to come home to the visible part of the Church on earth that Christ instituted in the New Covenant. Do you understand the deeply rooted history behind the Nicene Creed which some of your own creed takes after? Have you read the exchanges between Nestorius and Cyril? The Nestorian heresy rested first on his denial of Mary as the Mother of God - and through that he denied the divinity of Christ. I don't think many non-Catholics realize what they are saying when they say "begotten, not made". That is a very pregnant statement. I'd be happy to explore it more with you.
[/quote]

Baptists like creeds, they just have a different name for them "Statement of Faith." I chose to write it in the form of a creed just because it's easier than hitting "enter" after every sentence, and then putting which point number comes next. : I've done an article on the some of the history on the Nicene Creed(mainly the history of the first writing of the creed) for a ministry I work for(it's a newsletter thing). I've not read the exchanges you mentioned. But I am familiar with the Arian heresy that was being combatted with the first writing of the creed.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='NewReformation' post='1078624' date='Sep 29 2006, 01:50 AM']
Baptists like creeds, they just have a different name for them "Statement of Faith." I chose to write it in the form of a creed just because it's easier than hitting "enter" after every sentence, and then putting which point number comes next. : I've done an article on the some of the history on the Nicene Creed(mainly the history of the first writing of the creed) for a ministry I work for(it's a newsletter thing). I've not read the exchanges you mentioned. But I am familiar with the Arian heresy that was being combatted with the first writing of the creed.
[/quote]

Good for you. Two excellent source texts (by a Protestant publisher) are "the Trinitarian controversy" and the "Christological controversy" where you can read their exchanges. I would even encourage you to go further back in time to the original apostles and their disciples. Consider reading Clement, Ignatius, and Polycarp. Though Clement did not end up in the canon of scripture, there was a short period of time that it was read with the canonical books and some early scholars placed Clement among the canonical books. They give deep, wonderful insight into the early Christians and their life and thought. Even if you don't agree with tradition as a source of any kind of authority, they will help you to know your roots as a Christian even more. You could read the vast majority of the significant works by those fathers of the church in a single sitting.

Blessings.

Edited September 29, 2006 by Brother Adam

[cmotherofpirl]

Actual civil conversation ! What a thought!
What a precedent!
Amen!

[NewReformation]

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='1078628' date='Sep 28 2006, 10:54 PM']
Good for you. Two excellent source texts (by a Protestant publisher) are "the Trinitarian controversy" and the "Christological controversy" where you can read their exchanges. I would even encourage you to go further back in time to the original apostles and their disciples. Consider reading Clement, Ignatius, and Polycarp. Though Clement did not end up in the canon of scripture, there was a short period of time that it was read with the canonical books and some early scholars placed Clement among the canonical books. They give deep, wonderful insight into the early Christians and their life and thought. Even if you don't agree with tradition as a source of any kind of authority, they will help you to know your roots as a Christian even more. You could read the vast majority of the significant works by those fathers of the church in a single sitting.

Blessings.
[/quote]
I actually have the entire "Ante-Nicene Fathers" in my digital library(for free mind you, God Bless E-Sword). I find it a very interesting read.

[Brother Adam]

which of the ante-nicene fathers have you read? What did you find most interesting? Having spent a better part of my youth as a non-Catholic, I have a passion for patristics.

"We are writing in this vein, dear friends, not only to admonish you but also to remind ourselves. For we are in the same arena and involved in the same struggle. Hence we should give up empty and futile concerns, and turn to the glorious and holy rule of our traditon." - Clement's First Letter 7,2-3

Edited September 29, 2006 by Brother Adam

[Budge]

You all believe God exsists but have you become a new creature in Christ?
[b]
2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.[/b]

[NewReformation]

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='1078636' date='Sep 28 2006, 11:03 PM']
which of the ante-nicene fathers have you read? What did you find most interesting? Having spent a better part of my youth as a non-Catholic, I have a passion for patristics.

"We are writing in this vein, dear friends, not only to admonish you but also to remind ourselves. For we are in the same arena and involved in the same struggle. Hence we should give up empty and futile concerns, and turn to the glorious and holy rule of our traditon." - Clement's First Letter 7,2-3
[/quote]
Origen, Clement of Alexandria, and Justian Martyr are some of those that I have read thus far. I'm still working on Origen. I also like Cyprian.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1078646' date='Sep 29 2006, 12:13 AM']
You all believe God exsists but have you become a new creature in Christ?
[b]
2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.[/b]
[/quote]
Yes, I was baptized and made into a new man, and I am washed in the Blood of the Lamb continually in the Sacraments.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='NewReformation' post='1078651' date='Sep 29 2006, 02:17 AM']
Origen, Clement of Alexandria, and Justian Martyr are some of those that I have read thus far. I'm still working on Origen. I also like Cyprian.
[/quote]

What about them interests you. btw, you are absolutely right that the fathers disagree with each other, there are even fathers who held heretical views. Catholics certianly won't say that the writings and teachings of the fathers are inspired scripture. They offer insights into the development of Christian doctrine though that are very important. You believe that Jesus is 'begotten, not made' and that God is "a Trinity, three persons and yet one essance" through the fathers whether you realize it or not, as it has been handed down to us. The fathers express the life and thought of Christians throughout the early history of the Church and help us get a picture for what the Church was and is. Justin Martyr is also an excellent author. He gives us great insight into the Logos. Origin is also quite the figure. If you have the time, let's dig into their texts.

[Budge]

So New Reformation, please list the Catholic doctrines/disciplines you do not agree with.
Here I'll get you started....

Purgatory?

Eucharist?

Infant Baptism?

Immaculate Conception?



[quote]
Origen, Clement of Alexandria, and Justian Martyr are some of those that I have read thus far. I'm still working on Origen. I also like Cyprian.[/quote]

All early deceivers.

You know the score on Origen dont you?
[quote]
Or·i·gen (ôr'ĭ-jĕn', -jən, ŏr'-) pronunciation, A.D.185?–254?.

Greek philosopher and theologian who reinterpreted Christian doctrine through Neo-Platonist philosophy. His influential work was later condemned as unorthodox.
[/quote]

It's odd, I know years ago this guy was considered unorthodox as it says above, odd how he is becoming ever so popular, castration and all.

[NewReformation]

[quote name='Budge' post='1078646' date='Sep 28 2006, 11:13 PM']
You all believe God exsists but have you become a new creature in Christ?
[b]
2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.[/b]
[/quote]
Yes. Had you read another thread we had this discussion in, you would have your answer already.



[quote name='Brother Adam' post='1078661' date='Sep 28 2006, 11:23 PM']
What about them interests you. btw, you are absolutely right that the fathers disagree with each other, there are even fathers who held heretical views. Catholics certianly won't say that the writings and teachings of the fathers are inspired scripture. They offer insights into the development of Christian doctrine though that are very important. You believe that Jesus is 'begotten, not made' and that God is "a Trinity, three persons and yet one essance" through the fathers whether you realize it or not, as it has been handed down to us. [b]The fathers express the life and thought of Christians throughout the early history of the Church[/b] and help us get a picture for what the Church was and is. Justin Martyr is also an excellent author. He gives us great insight into the Logos. Origin is also quite the figure. If you have the time, let's dig into their texts.
[/quote]
Which is precisely why I read them.

[Budge]

Every person that reads the early church 'fathers' [call no man father] and follows those false teachings over God's Word is usually led into more confusion.

What kind of Baptist rejects Gods glorious, beautiful Word for the writings of Neo-Platonians, wannabe pagans like Origen?

[NewReformation]

[quote name='Budge' post='1078664' date='Sep 28 2006, 11:26 PM']
So New Reformation, please list the Catholic doctrines/disciplines you do not agree with.
Here I'll get you started....

Purgatory?

Eucharist?

Infant Baptism?

Immaculate Conception?
All early deceivers.

You know the score on Origen dont you?
It's odd, I know years ago this guy was considered unorthodox as it says above, odd how he is becoming ever so popular, castration and all.
[/quote]

As to the doctrines/disciplines above, no...er...yes. Or whatever means I disagree with them. I'm not sure based on how your question is worded. But no, I don't believe them.

All early decievers? You do realize that had it not been for Cyprian, the KJV translators likely would not have put 1John 5:7 in the Bible right? Apart from Cyprian, there's very little support for that verse, even in the TR.