What I Believe

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Budge' post='1078674' date='Sep 29 2006, 12:31 AM']
Every person that reads the early church 'fathers' [call no man father] and follows those false teachings over God's Word is usually led into more confusion.

What kind of Baptist rejects Gods glorious, beautiful Word for the writings of Neo-Platonians, wannabe pagans like Origen?
[/quote]

What kind of christian doesn't read the writings of the earliest members of his faith?
To despise the past is to be confused in the present.

[NewReformation]

[quote name='Budge' post='1078674' date='Sep 28 2006, 11:31 PM']
Every person that reads the early church 'fathers' [call no man father] and follows those false teachings over God's Word is usually led into more confusion.

What kind of Baptist rejects Gods glorious, beautiful Word for the writings of Neo-Platonians, wannabe pagans like Origen?
[/quote]

Ok, "Early Church Leaders." Is that better for you? I'm just using a common term already in place.

Where did I say I reject God's Word for the writings of the Early Church Leaders? I merely stated that I was studying them to look at the history of Christianity in that time period.

Question for you Budge: What camp are you in? Nationwide? Southwide? HAC or BJU? What IFB camp is your church in? Ruckman? Hyles? Gray?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1078674' date='Sep 29 2006, 12:31 AM']
Every person that reads the early church 'fathers' [call no man father] and follows those false teachings over God's Word is usually led into more confusion.

What kind of Baptist rejects Gods glorious, beautiful Word for the writings of Neo-Platonians, wannabe pagans like Origen?
[/quote]
Budge, we don't take their teachings over God's word. In fact, Origen took an ultra-literalist view of Christ's words on being eunuchs for the kingdom and castrated himself. Do you think we follow his advice in that regard? Certainly not. We read the Fathers of the Church in order to see what the learned members of the Early Church thought about Scripture...to see their interpretations...much the same as the followers of Budgianism at some point in the future would look up these threads to find out your interpretations rather than come to their own ideas without guidance.

[Budge]

[quote]
What kind of christian doesn't read the writingsd earliest members of his faith?
To despise the past is to be confused in the present.
[/quote]

The Bible over and over warns of EARLY deceivers, even deceivers at the time of ACTS, so how can you trust these men at their word? You cannot.

Tts 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:

I havent even gotten started on all the FORGERIES there are of this EARLY 'HISTORY'.


[quote]
Question for you Budge: What camp are you in? Nationwide? Southwide? HAC or BJU? What IFB camp is your church in? Ruckman? Hyles? Gray?
[/quote]

Im a Christian first and foremost, Im not going to get into nit-picks and denominational turf battles with you.

I know there are Baptists going the way the dying liberal mainlines have gone.


[quote]
Budge, we don't take their teachings over God's word. In fact, Origen took an ultra-literalist view of Christ's words on being eunuchs for the kingdom and castrated himself. Do you think we follow his advice in that regard? Certainly not. We read the Fathers of the Church in order to see what the learned members of the Early Church thought about Scripture...to see their interpretations...much the same as the followers of Budgianism at some point in the future would look up these threads to find out your interpretations rather than come to their own ideas without guidance.[/quote]

[url="http://www.cuttingedge.org/articles/RC144.htm"]HOW RELIABLE ARE ROMES CHURCH FATHERS?[/url]

This is trusting in man, and Rome's version of History and facts {betrayal of the Reformation} rather then in God's pure eternal Word.

[NewReformation]

[quote name='Budge' post='1078720' date='Sep 29 2006, 12:04 AM']

Im a Christian first and foremost, Im not going to get into nit-picks and denominational turf battles with you.

I know there are Baptists going the way the dying liberal mainlines have gone.

[/quote]

Not about turf. I just want to know which IFB church leaders you respect and whose writings you are reading in order to establish what exactly you believe. Besides David Cloud I mean.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1078720' date='Sep 29 2006, 01:04 AM']
[url="http://www.cuttingedge.org/articles/RC144.htm"]HOW RELIABLE ARE ROMES CHURCH FATHERS?[/url]

This is trusting in man, and Rome's version of History and facts {betrayal of the Reformation} rather then in God's pure eternal Word.
[/quote]
Budge, having met Dr. Hahn and being a friend of his son, I request you to stop slandering him and linking to sources that slander him. That article is clearly misguided, claiming academic dishonesty when the quote it uses from Dr. Hahn actually claims the exact same thing it does.

Furthermore, that source takes quotes from something called the "Question Box Column." This is hardly an official Magisterial document.

[Budge]

The only thing I will tell you is I am not a Ruckmanite.

My Christian life is not centered in denominationalism.

Scripture is what I read first and foremost, and test the words of all men by.

[quote]
Budge, having met Dr. Hahn and being a friend of his son, I request you to stop slandering him and linking to sources that slander him. That article is clearly misguided, claiming academic dishonesty when the quote it uses from Dr. Hahn actually claims the exact same thing it does.[/quote]

How come you claim Dr. Hahn is slandered everytime someone simply disagrees with him?

By the way Ive read several of his books, the Lamb's Supper was one of the last books I read before I left the Catholic church.

[NewReformation]

[quote name='Budge' post='1078727' date='Sep 29 2006, 12:11 AM']
The only thing I will tell you is I am not a Ruckmanite.

My Christian life is not centered in denominationalism.

Scripture is what I read first and foremost, and test the words of all men by.

[/quote]
Good. Now, do you hold that some of these men you read(like say, David Cloud) may be in error in some areas, but are very solid in other areas?

[Budge]

No man is perfect only Jesus Christ is perfect, that is who we are to center our lives on, not any men, or men that claim infallibility.

[Counter-Reformer]

[quote name='Budge' post='1078727' date='Sep 29 2006, 01:11 AM']
The only thing I will tell you is I am not a Ruckmanite.

My Christian life is not centered in denominationalism. [/quote]
Yet wasn't that the very heart of the Reformation? Neither of the reformers believed in an invisible Church of believers. Infact, Luther went after Zwingili becuase he saw that Swingili was a heretic against the "Evangelicals" of Germany. John Calvin broke with the Lutherans on sever points and set up his own theocracy in Geneva becuase he believed that only a literal 144,000 would be saved and that his Calvinists in Geneva would be the Church that everybody saw.



[quote]Scripture is what I read first and foremost, and test the words of all men by.[/quote]
Yet for THe Traditional protestants from the outset this is not so. The Means of norming and the means of interpretation go by thier various confessions. The Westminister Confession is a means of norming and interpreting scripture for traditional Calvinists. For the Lutherans, scripture is noormed by the Augsburg confessions. By traditional protestantism, you are considered a heretic.

Edited September 29, 2006 by Counter-Reformer

[NewReformation]

[quote name='Budge' post='1078739' date='Sep 29 2006, 12:16 AM']
No man is perfect only Jesus Christ is perfect, that is who we are to center our lives on, not any men, or men that claim infallibility.
[/quote]

That's not my question. My question is: Do you believe these men may have been in error in some areas, but very solid in other areas? It's really a simple question, yes or no will suffice.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1078727' date='Sep 29 2006, 01:11 AM']
How come you claim Dr. Hahn is slandered everytime someone simply disagrees with him?
[/quote]
Because the source you linked to says that he claims something he doesn't claim. That's slander (actually, it's libel) and it's dishonest.

Edited September 29, 2006 by Raphael

[Cam42]

[quote name='Budge' post='1078720' date='Sep 28 2006, 11:04 PM']
I know there are Baptists going the way the dying liberal mainlines have gone.
[url="http://www.cuttingedge.org/articles/RC144.htm"]HOW RELIABLE ARE ROMES CHURCH FATHERS?[/url]

This is trusting in man, and Rome's version of History and facts {betrayal of the Reformation} rather then in God's pure eternal Word.
[/quote]

On whose authority is this bit of doctrine written? It certainly isn't the Word of God, yet you tote it out like it has some sort of authoritative truth or something? You are contradicting yourself.

[Mary-Kathryn]

New reformation:

I am more observer than debater but please continue the original discussion/debate that was initiated. Budge de-rails it quickly and before ones knows it, this civil interesting thread becomes just about Budge.

I would really like to sit back and read what the thread was originally about "What I believe."

I found your first post to be very interesting the way you framed your beliefs and I enjoyed the first few responses....

Thanks for bringing sharing about what you believe.

Edited September 29, 2006 by Mary-Kathryn

[homeschoolmom]

[Cam42]

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