Early Church Fathers..and Their "damnable Heresies'

[Budge]

The apostles warned of EARLY DECEIVERS.

I believe the majority of Rome's EARLY CHURCH FATHERS, fit the bill.

Origen most definitely.

[b]2Pe 2:1 ¶ [u]But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies[/u], even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.[/b]


Paul warns of grievous wolves to Come RIGHT after his departure.

[b]Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing [u]shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.[/u]

Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.[/b]


* In Pauls Day -"Already"- they were in the church
* Not 1500 years later, in at the Reformation

ct 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Act 20:32 [b]And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and [b]to the word of his grace[/b], which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.[/b]

Paul warns the church to stick with God's Word.

[Aloysius]

yeah, there were tons of early heretics and the church dealt with them accordingly and prevailed (for we know that the evil things cannot prevail against the true church). good thing st. paul and all the subsequent apostolic bishops were so vigilant at rooting out all heresies!

[Budge]

Why do you assume, that some of your favored men are not heretics as well.

Since you have made them the foundation instead of Gods Word to judge them by? Where is the standard?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1079130' date='Sep 29 2006, 01:39 PM']
Why do you assume, that some of your favored men are not heretics as well.

Since you have made them the foundation instead of Gods Word to judge them by? Where is the standard?
[/quote]
They were judged by the Church with God's word and found to be proficient. Since knowledge of the Scriptures has grown and developed (an instant argument against the notion that Scripture is self-explanitory), they may not each have had everything right. That is why the Church doesn't give them infallible credence, but looks to the things they all agreed were Scriptural and those things the whole Church has always believed to be true. Thus, the Vincentian Canon defines the deposit as that which has been believed always, by all, and in all places.

[Budge]

They were the founders of your church were they not?

How were they held accountable then if they were their own judges?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1079210' date='Sep 29 2006, 02:33 PM']
They were the founders of your church were they not?

How were they held accountable then if they were their own judges?
[/quote]
Jesus Christ is the founder of our Church.

They were not the judges. The Church is the judge. They were not the whole of the Church, but a part of it, nor were they each individually the Magisterium, but each a part of it. The Magisterium is a corporate entity, not an ability held by each bishop.

[cmotherofpirl]

THOSE men are the ones who chose the canon of the New Testament, I would be careful how I refer to them. Remember the bible is younger than the Church.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Budge' post='1079111' date='Sep 29 2006, 12:09 PM']
[b]2Pe 2:1 ¶ But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be [u]false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies[/u], even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.[/b][/quote]
How do we know you're not the "false teacher among you who privily shall bring in damnable heresies"? You're the one who was using a pagan symbol as an avatar image.

[quote]Paul warns the church to stick with God's Word.[/quote]
It would be nice if you would select an issue where you think the Church has not stuck to God's word rather than copy/pasting scripture.

[NewReformation]

[quote name='Budge' post='1079111' date='Sep 29 2006, 12:09 PM']
The apostles warned of EARLY DECEIVERS.

I believe the majority of Rome's EARLY CHURCH FATHERS, fit the bill.

Origen most definitely.

[b]2Pe 2:1 ¶ [u]But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies[/u], even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.[/b]
Paul warns of grievous wolves to Come RIGHT after his departure.

[b]Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing [u]shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.[/u]

Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.[/b]
* In Pauls Day -"Already"- they were in the church
* Not 1500 years later, in at the Reformation

ct 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Act 20:32 [b]And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and [b]to the word of his grace[/b], which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.[/b]

Paul warns the church to stick with God's Word.
[/quote]

I'm disappointed. This post doesn't show any of these heresies of which you speak.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Budge' post='1079210' date='Sep 29 2006, 12:33 PM']
They were the founders of your church were they not?

How were they held accountable then if they were their own judges?
[/quote]

This is a joke, right?

Isn't the whole point of the Reformed tradition that each one of us can read and interpret the Bible for him/herself?

David Koresh, anyone? Or Jimmy Swaggart? Or Jim Bakker? Or Jim Jones? Hello, McFly, it's "your" guys who are doing a "solo run" because they're not constrained by any larger authority, i.e. they're their "own judges."

[Laudate_Dominum]

I'm pretty sure the best bet on those sorts of passages would be the early gnostics and maybe judaizers.

[Budge]

[quote]This is a joke, right?[/quote]

Nope...

Matthew 23:10, Jesus says "Nec vocemini magistri: quia magister vester unus est, Christus." (Jerome's Vulgate) which means [size=4]"Neither be ye called masters; for one is your master, Christ." [/size](Catholic Douay-Rheims)

So what does the Catholic church do?

It reads Jesus' statement that Christians are not to call anyone MAGISTER and.....creates a group of men they call the MAGISTERIUM!


Another case of Scripture saying one thing and Rome doing another!

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Budge' post='1079404' date='Sep 29 2006, 03:05 PM']
Nope...

Matthew 23:10, Jesus says "Nec vocemini magistri: quia magister vester unus est, Christus." (Jerome's Vulgate) which means [size=4]"Neither be ye called masters; for one is your master, Christ." [/size](Catholic Douay-Rheims)

So what does the Catholic church do?

It reads Jesus' statement that Christians are not to call anyone MAGISTER and.....creates a group of men they call the MAGISTERIUM!
Another case of Scripture saying one thing and Rome doing another!
[/quote]

Look, Budge, all I have to do is say the words "David Koresh" to smash your argument into a million little pieces. Quote anything you like but if it's taken out of context, it can mean anything you want it to mean. In terms of the tired old canard cited above, it's been debunked umpteen times on this board, so there's really no further point in responding.

Unless you look at scripture as a whole, and unless you do so in its linguistic and historical context, you can make it say whatever you want. Ironically, that's where heresies come from.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Budge' post='1079404' date='Sep 29 2006, 05:05 PM']
Nope...

Matthew 23:10, Jesus says "Nec vocemini magistri: quia magister vester unus est, Christus." (Jerome's Vulgate) which means [size=4]"Neither be ye called masters; for one is your master, Christ." [/size](Catholic Douay-Rheims)

So what does the Catholic church do?

It reads Jesus' statement that Christians are not to call anyone MAGISTER and.....creates a group of men they call the MAGISTERIUM!
Another case of Scripture saying one thing and Rome doing another!
[/quote]
I think there must be a short term memory problem somewhere, because we covered this exact thing about a week ago. And since we already did, and that is not the topic of this thread, the thread should probably be closed.

[Budge]

[quote]Look, Budge, all I have to do is say the words "David Koresh" to smash your argument into a million little pieces. Quote anything you like but if it's taken out of context, it can mean anything you want it to mean. In terms of the tired old canard cited above, it's been debunked umpteen times on this board, so there's really no further point in responding.[/quote]

David Koresh, made the same mistake, making himself the same ultimate authority with no accountability.

This is something every cult does....

Cults always have a strong leader or group of leaders, that are not to be questioned no matter what who hold complete power and sway over their followers. Really this is how mind control is done in cults.
[b]
87 Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me", the faithful [b]receive with docility [/b]the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.[/b]

The apostles taught differently, "follow me as I follow Christ"

Christianity is not supposed to be a religion of blind obedience. but obeying God rather then men.

[Counter-Reformer]

[quote name='Budge' post='1079715' date='Sep 29 2006, 09:19 PM']

[b]
87 Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me", the faithful [b]receive with docility [/b]the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.[/b]

The apostles taught differently, "follow me as I follow Christ"

Christianity is not supposed to be a religion of blind obedience. but obeying God rather then men.
[/quote]

Funny you skip the parts about Christ giving the Apoostles the ability to bind and to loose, and St. Paul talks about leadership is key in the Church. He even instructs not to ordain those hastily. Infact the first thing St. Paul did was get ordained rather than start preaching. Let's not forget that St. Peter had to teach the Ethiopian eunich what Isaiah was really saying and Peter reaffirms this that prophecy is not a matter of personal interpretation and that it is reserved to the Church.

Edited September 30, 2006 by Counter-Reformer

[Akalyte]

Poor budge. She seems like such an unhappy miserable person. If you are so close to Christ then why do you despair so much? All you can do is point out people's so called "errors". You see no good in anything but your own opinions and beliefs. You attack the early Church Fathers because the Early Church fathers prove the Church is correct. It's typical protestant jargin.

Instead of seeing things as "in Christ and one with Christ" you seperate everything from him. We dont put anyone or anything on the same level as Christ. We do believe Christ works through people.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Budge' post='1079715' date='Sep 29 2006, 08:19 PM']
David Koresh, made the same mistake, making himself the same ultimate authority with no accountability.
[/quote]

congrats budge, you, by your own comments, are not an authoritative teacher with any accountability. By your own arguments, there is not a single reason why we should believe you any more than David Koresh.

ahh the beauty of protestantism, you can make up whatever you want, piece together some Bible verses, and then claim to be some authority and tell everyone else they're wrong. ..then build a mega church and make millions

Edited September 30, 2006 by rkwright

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Budge' post='1079404' date='Sep 29 2006, 04:05 PM']
Nope...

Matthew 23:10, Jesus says "Nec vocemini magistri: quia magister vester unus est, Christus." (Jerome's Vulgate) which means [size=4]"Neither be ye called masters; for one is your master, Christ." [/size](Catholic Douay-Rheims)

So what does the Catholic church do?

It reads Jesus' statement that Christians are not to call anyone MAGISTER and.....creates a group of men they call the MAGISTERIUM!
[/quote]
Magister is Latin for teacher. The Magisterium is teaching the life of Jesus Christ to others. Is even teaching others about Christ blasphemy in Budge's Bible?

True, Christ is the master teacher. He and no other can take the title and role from Him. Neither does the Church. All of her teachings come from Christ.

[quote]Christianity is not supposed to be a religion of blind obedience. but [b]obeying God rather then men[/b].[/quote]
Which is why I'm Catholic.

[jswranch]

[quote name='Budge' post='1079111' date='Sep 29 2006, 11:09 AM']
The apostles warned of EARLY DECEIVERS.

I believe the majority of Rome's EARLY CHURCH FATHERS, fit the bill.

Origen most definitely.
....
[/quote]
I suppose you know Origen was not a church father. He is also never refered to as 'St. Origen'.


Which Early Chruch Fathers do you refer?