Redemptive Suffering

[Katholikos]

As many of you know, I have been ill. I can honestly say that I know now what it means to suffer. I have had 21 surgeries since May of 2003, including amputation of my left leg. My last surgery was August 22, 2006, and it's not over yet. I tell you that not to complain or to elicit sympathy, but simply to state my qualifications as an expert on suffering.

Colossians 1:24 RSV: [b][i]Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church.[/i] [/b] I, too, learned to "rejoice in my sufferings" because I came to understand the redemptive value of suffering. I did not waste it. I joined it, as best I could, to the sufferings of Christ on the Cross and was never closer to Him because of it. My suffering had value and meaning. I offered it to God for my sins and for the salvation of others.

If anyone but St. Paul had written this, those who are not Catholic would be calling him a heretic. But my experience is that Protestants ignore this verse or explain it away -- it couldn't possibly mean what it says, they say.

Our beloved Holy Father, John Paul the Great, explains it in a Bible study called [i]Salvifici Doloris[/i], which I highly recommend you all read. We are all called to carry our cross, and one day you'll be carrying yours on the road to your own Calvary. Perhaps you have started that journey already.

I'm posting this in the debate section so we can hear from all those who object to the Catholic belief in redemptive suffering. Pretty nervy, those Catholics, to think that their own suffering can assist in the salvation of others!

Thank you, God, for the gift of suffering.

Edited October 21, 2006 by Katholikos

[Eutychus]

My thoughts were with you on that one.

EXTERNAL suffering, such as yours is indeed redemtive.

Self inflicted suffering is quite a different matter.

You have been through a lot, and your attitude is a good one, and I'm sure you are storing up treasures in heaven for the pain, sorrow, and loss that is your burden now to bear.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1097687' date='Oct 21 2006, 12:40 PM']
My thoughts were with you on that one.

EXTERNAL suffering, such as yours is indeed redemtive.

Self inflicted suffering is quite a different matter.

You have been through a lot, and your attitude is a good one, and I'm sure you are storing up treasures in heaven for the pain, sorrow, and loss that is your burden now to bear.
[/quote]
Eutychus, what is that makes self-inflicted suffering non-redemptive? I assume here that you mean fasts and other penances (such as cords)?

[MilesChristi]

[quote]Self inflicted suffering is quite a different matter.[/quote]

"but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor 9:27).

[Eutychus]

All one has to do is read on, and you see that the "pommelling" of his body, was done by others, five times whipped 39 lashes, 3 times with rods, stoned and left for dead once, and twice shipwrecked, travelling in cold, hot, and other EXTERNAL manifestations upon his body.

I doubt Paul wore a hairshirt, or imposed upon his being personal additions to what OTHERS had done to him.

[MilesChristi]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1097986' date='Oct 21 2006, 08:27 PM']
All one has to do is read on, and you see that the "pommelling" of his body, was done by others, five times whipped 39 lashes, 3 times with rods, stoned and left for dead once, and twice shipwrecked, travelling in cold, hot, and other EXTERNAL manifestations upon his body.

I doubt Paul wore a hairshirt, or imposed upon his being personal additions to what OTHERS had done to him.
[/quote]


The verse is clear: [b]I[/b] pommel. Paul is the one pommeling his own body.

But since the clearly written Word contradicts your personal views on suffering, you have to make a leap and try to connect it to a passage from a later epistle when the answer is right in front of you.

[mulls]

i do believe in the value of redemptive suffering.

as a young believer, i experienced my first taste of suffering like Christ over this past year. a small, small taste, but it was suffering nonetheless, and quite unpleasant.

i wouldn't say that i "offered it up" in the sense which that term is used around here, but i certainly did ask for the Lord's grace, and for insight and understanding as to what it really means to suffer like Christ......in which we become like Him.

it is a great blessing when the Lord chooses who will suffer, much like Job, one of the greatest types of Christ in the OT. but no, i would not go out of my way to inflict my own suffering, ON MY OWN TERMS, and call it Christ-like.

but redemptive suffering, at the Lord's discretion......yes indeed.

[Eutychus]

Only when you use that horrid translation the NAB does that word get rendered POMMEL.

[quote]
The verse is clear: I pommel. Paul is the one pommeling his own body. [/quote]


In the rest of the world, here is the passage:

[quote]1Co 9:27
But I keep under my body, [u]and bring it into subjection:[/u] lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.[/quote]

In other words, when TRANSLATED by competant people, he had to FORCE his beat and broken body daily, to keep on moving, for yet one more day of efforts. Despite the scars, hurts, pain, and effort to keep that old body, MISTREATED by the others and the elements ... going for yet one more effort at speading the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[quote]1396. doulagogeo

Search for G1396 in KJVSL

doulagwgew doulagogeo doo-lag-ogue-eh'-o

from a presumed compound of 1401 and 71; to be a slave-driver, i.e. to enslave (figuratively, subdue)[b][u]:--bring into subjection.[/u][/b][/quote]

Please get a real bible, OK? { even the Roman Catholic experts consider the NAB worthless, worse than worthless....}

Edited October 22, 2006 by Eutychus

[cmotherofpirl]

Wrong. We have no quarrel with the translation, we are simply don't like all the footnotes. It is far superior to the KJV.

[Eutychus]

The NAB?

You MUST be kidding. I have yet to read a Catholic scholar that thinks that translation is worth the paper it is printed upon.

I do believe, even the Vatican has ordered that it be retranslated ONE MORE TIME, what is this now, the fourth?

There are other VERY good bibles, that the Catholic Church can use, approved at one time by the Catholic Church, the NAB isn't one of them.

[MilesChristi]

[quote]Only when you use that horrid translation the NAB does that word get rendered POMMEL.[/quote]

Actually, I was using the Revised Standard Version. But if you don't like that Bible, let's try the Douay-Rheims, which predates the KJV:

"But I chastise my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway" (1 Cor. 9:27)


Sorry, but the point still stands.

[Eutychus]

1Co 9:27

But I keepe vnder my body, and bring it into subiection: lest that by any meanes when I haue preached to others, I my selfe should be a castaway

As written in version ONE 1611

-----------------------------------------------------------

Well, I tried.

If you want to beat the snot out of yourself, thinking that will endear you to God, have at it.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1098208' date='Oct 22 2006, 02:06 AM']
1Co 9:27

But I keepe vnder my body, and bring it into subiection: lest that by any meanes when I haue preached to others, I my selfe should be a castaway

As written in version ONE 1611

-----------------------------------------------------------

Well, I tried.

If you want to beat the snot out of yourself, thinking that will endear you to God, have at it.
[/quote]
Your above statement makes it sound like you misunderstand our view of salvation. Christ is endearing to God, we are merely conformed to Him so that we may be endearing inasmuch as we are in His likeness.

[Katholikos]

What do you think St. Paul meant, [b][i]"I rejoice in my sufferings for [u]your sake[/u], and in my flesh I complete WHAT IS LACKING IN CHRIST'S AFFLICTIONS for the sake of HIS BODY, that is, THE CHURCH.[/i][/b]? Colossians 1:24 RSV

What is "lacking in Christ's afflictiions" that Paul is able to complete in his own flesh "for the sake of His Body the Church"?

[Budge]

Every Catholic misinterprets that verse.

Your OWN sufferings, even as horrible as they have been, {I am truly sorry for what you have gone through} will not save you. One must have total trust in the sufficency of what Christ did for us on the cross.

Those who have had severe health problems will attest that becoming a Christian and no longer being told they are "holier" then others for all their sufferings, is a life of much more joy when God becomes an never-ending source of comfort to them. God is their loving Father they run into the arms of for comfort and solace. Do you view God as a loving Father?

Jesus taught the blind man, it wasnt any sin you did, nor of your fathers generation. Sickness and death happen to people because of sin in the world in general. These things happen and only God knows the purpose why. Some times it can be a chastisement, other times it can be to change you, there have been others who have been broken who have come to Christ, otherwise they would have died in their sins and gone to hell. But our sufferings do not make us more holy in that we add to our own salvation, or have to "make" an addition to what Christ did on the cross for us.

The book of Job definitely is an enriching one for anyone going through troubles, and the faith of Job...[b]Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.[/b] is a wonderful example.

[Winchester]

Ah yes, if we view our actions as participating in our salvation, then we must (in accord with the moronic principle of all or nothing) believe that we cause our own salvation.

It's so clear now!

[Budge]

Jesus is more then the door opener to salvation. He is its finisher and completer as well. He is responsible for ALL.

There is no finishing the job for him. All goodness comes from God.

[Winchester]

[quote]Jesus is more then the door opener to salvation. He is its finisher and completer as well. He is responsible for ALL.

There is no finishing the job for him. All goodness comes from God.[/quote]

Are you arguing that we do not perticipate in our salvation?

[Norseman82]

My NAB (the 1970 version) has 1 Corinthians 24-27 translated as follows:

"You know that while all the runners in the stadium take part in the race, the award goes to one man. In that case, run as to win! Athletes deny themselves all sorts of things. They do this to win acrown of leaves that withers, but we a crown that is imperishable. I do not run like a man who loses sight of the finishline. I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing. What I do is [b]discipline my own body and master it[/b], for fear that after having preached to others I myself should be rejected."

(The Vulgate has "castigo corpus meum", FYI).

I felt it important to start at verse 24 so that we know the context of what St. Paul was speaking and then emphasized in [b]bold[/b] what my 1970 NAB translation said. If we look at this in the context of and for the purpose of "spiritual training" instead of some sick way of proving some macho frat-boy stunt, it makes perfect sense.

It is also to be noted that traditionally, the "self-mastering" refers to controlling one's sexual desires, as evidenced by references to St. Francis throwing himself into thornbushes by St. Escriva.

Edited October 22, 2006 by Norseman82

[Eutychus]

[quote] What is "lacking in Christ's afflictiions" that Paul is able to complete in his own flesh "for the sake of His Body the Church"?[/quote]

The EV-ANGEL-ISM.

The work and completion is the EV = tellling, ANGEL = message, ISM = going out and doing it.

The ACT was complete, but useless to the unsaved till the day they heard, and believed.

[quote]It is also to be noted that traditionally, the "self-mastering" refers to controlling one's sexual desires, as evidenced by references to St. Francis throwing himself into thornbushes by St. Escriva. [/quote]

It is controlling the mind, not the sex organs, the MIND is where all sin starts, and where all sin ends too.

[quote]Romans 12:1 (KJV) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God,[b][u] that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind,[/b][/u] that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.[/quote]