Winchester Posted November 2, 2006 Posted November 2, 2006 So the fact of requiring witnesses and dismissing cases when one of the witnesses was shown (by the accused) to be an enemy of the accused was bad and should be condemned.
KizlarAgha Posted November 2, 2006 Posted November 2, 2006 (edited) [quote name='Budge' post='1108715' date='Nov 2 2006, 12:22 PM'] Yes I can condemn the entire Inquisition. The entire premise was wrong and against the commandments of Jesus Christ. [/quote] Budge, budge, budge. My dear friend, I am not in it for the Catholics. I am merely telling it how it is. Sometimes when I tell it like it is, I happen to be on the "side" of the Catholic. Sometimes when I tell it like it is I get told I have a rotten little hellbound soul. But, either way, I'm just being as honest as I can be on the subjects which come before me. I will now explain to you why the Inquisition was an act of mercy and compassion. You see, Medieval Catholics honestly believed that only Catholics were saved, and that everyone who wasn't Catholic was going to Hell. That was the belief at the time, and protestants like yourself did not yet exist. So, they were, in effect, the only Christians. (We'll leave off the Eastern Orthodox because we're discussing Western Europe). Now, if you believe that everyone who isn't Catholic is going to Hell, then as a compassionate person, you will want to save them, won't you? Well, the first steps of saving come from evangelizing and from preachings, and from spreading the word - all of these things were done. In fact, the 13th century saw a huge rise in preaching and the birth of what we call the "mendicant orders" namely the Franciscans and the Dominicans. Alright, so we're in the 13th century and lay preaching is exploding on the scene. Suddenly, teachers with no formal theological training are picking up bibles and they're spreading the word of God. Well, this bothers the Church a great deal. You could read an evil motive into it, saying that they didn't want to be made irrelevant by the preachers, or that the preachers threatened their hierarchy, but there's really no evidence of that. I haven't met a modern historian who holds to that argument. Instead, I'll give you the generally accepted belief of secular historians. The evidence seems to show that one of the greatest concerns to come out of the new preaching movement was heresy - the idea that these preachers teaching without Rome's approval might be leading souls away from God rather than towards him. Now, before you jump all over that idea, allow me to tell you what some of these preachers taught. Some taught that there were two Gods, a good God, and an evil God. The evil god made all that was evil in the world - including some of the animals. The good god made only good things and good animals. Or, even stranger, the evil god made the world itself, and everything in it, and the good god only made spiritual things. Everything physical is a prison, and must be escaped - like the human body. Under such a belief system childbirth is evil. But no, these aren't even the most bizarre. One man consistently preached for almost two decades that the universe was a piece of wormy coagulated milk. I'm not joking. So, we have all of these bizarre ideas being preached to the masses, and some of the masses are believing them. That's a problem! These people are all going to go to Hell if they're not Catholic. So, in the interest of saving their souls, and doing them a favor, the Church decided to make it against Church law for lay people to preach. They made the Franciscans and Dominicans official orders, but after that they banned the creation of any new orders for a time. They then set up inquisitions in order to root out the heretics and ensure that people actually believed Catholic dogma and doctrine. Inquisitions were set up by local authorities - namely bishops, and were usually run by Dominicans. The people of a region would be brought in, and they would all be questioned. Those who had heretical beliefs would be questioned further, until a culprit could be found for spreading heresy. They would then tell those in error to confess to believe in the teachings of the Catholic Church. If this was done, a light penance was given and then everyone would go on about their business. Only if a person held an error to be true and obstinately defended that error was he considered to be a heretic. Once he was a heretic, he would usually be given at least one more chance to convert, and probably several. However, death was the penalty if he did not. You might be thinking at this point - how awful! They're murdering innocent people! No, they're not. If you honestly and truly believe that your religion gives you heaven in the afterlife, and anyone else goes to the fiery pits of Hell, then you have no real choice but to kill heretics. Heretics become worse than murderers. They are not killing the flesh of the people whose minds they poison, but killing their very souls. They're essentially murdering people's afterlives. And that is a very serious crime to honest Catholics. So, the death penalty then really does fit the crime if you honestly believe Catholicism. That's sort of a brief history of inquisitions, however there are special cases - the Albigensian crusade and the inquisitions following it are exceptionally well-studied and documented. There used to be a debate over whether the Cathars actually existed or not, but I happened to train under an expert in the Cathars and she says the current academic belief is that there is no doubt Cathars existed and really did preach their strange teachings. The second special case is the Spanish Inquisition which we've been discussing here. So, I hope I've given you some information to think about regarding the practice of inquisition. As I say, even secular historians are forced to admit that if you follow Catholic doctrine to its logical conclusion you almost have no choice but to use inquisitions. Edited November 2, 2006 by KizlarAgha
Budge Posted November 2, 2006 Author Posted November 2, 2006 Do you attend or are you affiliated with a Catholic college?
KizlarAgha Posted November 2, 2006 Posted November 2, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1108934' date='Nov 2 2006, 04:13 PM'] Do you attend or are you affiliated with a Catholic college? [/quote] No, I attended UCSB. I challenge you to find a more secular, liberal institution in modern academics than the University of California : Furthermore, my professors were all secular atheists except for my professor on medieval Spanish/Iberian history who was a Jew.
Budge Posted November 2, 2006 Author Posted November 2, 2006 [quote] I challenge you to find a more secular, liberal institution in modern academics than the University of California [/quote] Considering the move of our country to fascist viewpoints over all, I am not surprised that now the Inquisition is now being whitewashed as necessary by secular liberals. I suppose given that rights in America have been rescinded more and more everyday, after all Hillary and Ted Kennedy, love HATE CRIME LAWS {Ted always putting up that bill in front of Congress every few years} Hate Crime equals THOUGHT CRIME. The Inquisition was basically the same thing, the criminalization of THOUGHT. One thing I have noticed on the boards all these years, is that every non-Christian Christ rejecter is joining hands with Rome on a variety of issues. On my board a Christian-missionary hating Hindu and the resident occultist teamed up with the Catholics. One interesting thing on the webs is to realize how many actual knowing Satanists go to web-wide to promote Catholic beliefs. The Catholics I have the most hope for spirtually are the ones who reject the Inquisition. Why would you as an atheist support the Inqusitions when you would have been one of thsoe Cathars {different beliefs} marched off to the stake? Anyone who defends the Inquisition and makes excuses for it...{the context of that time, they believed everyone was going to hell...etc} lacks the Holy Spirit and is basically embracing evil. Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
KizlarAgha Posted November 2, 2006 Posted November 2, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1108972' date='Nov 2 2006, 04:32 PM'] Considering the move of our country to fascist viewpoints over all, I am not surprised that now the Inquisition is now being whitewashed as necessary by secular liberals. I suppose given that rights in America have been rescinded more and more everyday, after all Hillary and Ted Kennedy, love HATE CRIME LAWS {Ted always putting up that bill in front of Congress every few years} Hate Crime equals THOUGHT CRIME. The Inquisition was basically the same thing, the criminalization of THOUGHT. One thing I have noticed on the boards all these years, is that every non-Christian Christ rejecter is joining hands with Rome on a variety of issues. On my board a Christian-missionary hating Hindu and the resident occultist teamed up with the Catholics. One interesting thing on the webs is to realize how many actual knowing Satanists go to web-wide to promote Catholic beliefs. The Catholics I have the most hope for spirtually are the ones who reject the Inquisition. Why would you as an atheist support the Inqusitions when you would have been one of thsoe Cathars {different beliefs} marched off to the stake? Anyone who defends the Inquisition and makes excuses for it...{the context of that time, they believed everyone was going to hell...etc} lacks the Holy Spirit and is basically embracing evil. Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. [/quote] Don't be ridiculous, I wouldn't have been a Cathar. I would have been a Catholic clergy member writing necromancy texts in secret :
Budge Posted November 2, 2006 Author Posted November 2, 2006 No offense, but you arent one of those Catholic promoting occultists are you? I meet them all over the webs. Some of them told me the Inquisition was cool.... What kind of athiest are you? secular humanist, UU, materialist??? agnostic? What religion were you raised as?
RC_ Posted November 2, 2006 Posted November 2, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1108987' date='Nov 2 2006, 04:39 PM'] No offense, but you arent one of those Catholic promoting occultists are you? I meet them all over the webs. Some of them told me the Inquisition was cool.... What kind of athiest are you? secular humanist, UU, materialist??? agnostic? What religion were you raised as? [/quote] All those are pretty clear, if you would actually read Kizlar's posts.
Budge Posted November 2, 2006 Author Posted November 2, 2006 (edited) well why dont you tell me. What does this say? Is this a picture of a female sea monkey? [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/uploads/av-2766.jpg[/img] Edited November 2, 2006 by Budge
KizlarAgha Posted November 2, 2006 Posted November 2, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1108987' date='Nov 2 2006, 04:39 PM'] No offense, but you arent one of those Catholic promoting occultists are you? I meet them all over the webs. Some of them told me the Inquisition was cool.... What kind of athiest are you? secular humanist, UU, materialist??? agnostic? What religion were you raised as? [/quote] I was raised Catholic. I don't really categorize my atheism really. I just don't believe in the existence of a God. As to occultists, I was just subtly giving you a little anti-Catholic history. According to Richard Kieckheffer, the leading authority on medieval necromancy (explicitly demonic magic), the majority of necromancers in the middle ages were actually members of the Catholic clergy. (I did quite a bit of my independent research in medieval magical practices). Anyway, I never said the inquisition was cool. I merely told you the facts about the inquisition. The fact is, the inquisition was not one thing. There were many inquisitions in many different places and many different times. What was true for an inquisition in France in the 13th century might not have been true for the Spanish Inquisition or an inquisition in Italy in the 14th century. You can't generalize about such a giant, broad phenomenon. Secondly, the inquisition was, in many cases, quite lenient - not at all what we have been led to believe in most history books. I can't help it if people who don't study history professionally think that the inquisition was the most evil thing ever. They clearly haven't studied it as I have. [quote name='Budge' post='1108995' date='Nov 2 2006, 04:45 PM'] well why dont you tell me. What does this say? Is this a picture of a female sea monkey? [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/uploads/av-2766.jpg[/img] [/quote] It is a princess surrounded by trolls, painted by a turn of the century Swede. I thought it was appropriate for many of my forum dealings : Here's the whole picture: [img]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h97/ordoteutonicorum/trolls1.jpg[/img]
KizlarAgha Posted November 2, 2006 Posted November 2, 2006 [quote name='RC_' post='1109001' date='Nov 2 2006, 04:50 PM'] Do the trolls symbolize you or us? [/quote] I'm the princess! : Actually, I've used this image on several forums before this one, so it wasn't a specific knock at this forum in particular.
Budge Posted November 2, 2006 Author Posted November 2, 2006 [quote]was raised Catholic. I don't really categorize my atheism really. I just don't believe in the existence of a God. As to occultists, I was just subtly giving you a little anti-Catholic history. According to Richard Kieckheffer, the leading authority on medieval necromancy (explicitly demonic magic),[b] the majority of necromancers in the middle ages were actually members of the Catholic clergy.[/b] (I did quite a bit of my independent research in medieval magical practices).[/quote] One thing you should know, some Christians can discern an occultist even online. The occultists are invested btw not in advancing Chrsitian fundamentalism but in teaching and promoting the errors of Catholicism. You have already pretty much taken up defense for the Catholic side of things despite your claims to be an "athiest" I am not surprisd whatsoever that you have studied the leading authorities on demonic magic. Some will profess to being atheists while still believing in a higher being. This is nothing new to me. In fact I was a student of Theosophy during my UU days and called myself an athiest at the same time. It does not surprised me what I know about the Roman Catholic church that the majority of necromancers in the middle ages were actually members of the Catholic clergy. [quote] Anyway, I never said the inquisition was cool. I merely told you the facts about the inquisition. The fact is, the inquisition was not one thing. There were many inquisitions in many different places and many different times.[/quote] I know there were several ones, named for the place they were in. That is nothing new to me. [quote] What was true for an inquisition in France in the 13th century might not have been true for the Spanish Inquisition or an inquisition in Italy in the 14th century. You can't generalize about such a giant, broad phenomenon. Secondly, the inquisition was, in many cases, quite lenient - not at all what we have been led to believe in most history books. I can't help it if people who don't study history professionally think that the inquisition was the most evil thing ever. They clearly haven't studied it as I have.[/quote] History can be biased. In fact history is rewritten all the time. All I have to do is compare the attitudes in a 1950s American history book with one from 10 years ago. Right now Rome is totally invested in whitewashing the Inquisition even though it happened 500 years ago. Just about two years ago, JPII and others came out to claim the Inquisition wasnt so bad.... There are many non-Catholic occultists and defenders jumping on the Inquisiton bandwagon. They just call it different things... {new Agers speak of removing the unelightened ones...etc}
Justified Saint Posted November 2, 2006 Posted November 2, 2006 (edited) How impossible it is to suffer the patience for a fundamentalist. Sources are scrutinized for being pro-Catholic and when it turns out they are secular/atheist then the story suddenly changes. Budge, why does God command Moses to slay idolaters? Is it only ok to murder when God directly commands it? No wonder fundamentalists are such easy targets -- they are horribly incosistent even though they pride themselves on consistency the most. Edited November 2, 2006 by Justified Saint
KizlarAgha Posted November 2, 2006 Posted November 2, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1109006' date='Nov 2 2006, 04:57 PM'] One thing you should know, some Christians can discern an occultist even online. The occultists are invested btw not in advancing Chrsitian fundamentalism but in teaching and promoting the errors of Catholicism. You have already pretty much taken up defense for the Catholic side of things despite your claims to be an "athiest" I am not surprisd whatsoever that you have studied the leading authorities on demonic magic. Some will profess to being atheists while still believing in a higher being. This is nothing new to me. In fact I was a student of Theosophy during my UU days and called myself an athiest at the same time. It does not surprised me what I know about the Roman Catholic church that the majority of necromancers in the middle ages were actually members of the Catholic clergy. I know there were several ones, named for the place they were in. That is nothing new to me. History can be biased. In fact history is rewritten all the time. All I have to do is compare the attitudes in a 1950s American history book with one from 10 years ago. Right now Rome is totally invested in whitewashing the Inquisition even though it happened 500 years ago. Just about two years ago, JPII and others came out to claim the Inquisition wasnt so bad.... There are many non-Catholic occultists and defenders jumping on the Inquisiton bandwagon. They just call it different things... {new Agers speak of removing the unelightened ones...etc} [/quote] Okay, Budge. I don't believe in a higher power, or in demons. I just found medieval magic to be an interesting research field. Secondly, I didn't get my history from "history books." I read the actual period documents, many of them in the original medieval latin. I then formed an opinion based on what the sources at the time period had to say. That's not the same thing as parroting what you read in a history book. So to sum up: I'm not Catholic. I'm not an occultist. I'm not whitewashing anything. I'm presenting the facts of the inquisitions as I saw them from reading the actual documents.
Budge Posted November 2, 2006 Author Posted November 2, 2006 Ah a lady of light for your avatar... that is another marker... Sadly you and the Catholics do all worship the same false spirits... [quote] Vatican City (AsiaNews) – [b]The pope today once again talked about the apparitions in Fatima and the prophecy uttered by the “Lady of White Light” to the shepherds[/b]: “In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph”. He was speaking during the Regina Caeli prayer, one day after the anniversary of the beginning of the apparitions (13 May 1917) and 25 years after the assassination attempt against Pope Wojtyla, in which the “Servant of God, John Paul II, felt he had been miraculously saved from death by the intervention of ‘a maternal hand’, as he himself used to say. His entire pontificate was marked by what the Virgin pronounced at Fatima”. Only yesterday, the statue of Our Lady of Fatima was welcomed in St Peter’s Square by tens of thousands of believers, and a plaque was unveiled in the square on the exact spot where the attempt to take the life of the Polish Pope took place. Benedict XVI recalled that the message the Virgin entrusted in Fatima to the three children, Francesco, Giacinta and Lucia, “following on the one of Lourdes, was a strong call to prayer and conversion. It was a truly prophetic message considering that the XX century was ravaged by unheard-of destruction caused by wars and totalitarian regimes, as well as long drawn out persecution against the Church”. The promise of Mary, about the victory of the Immaculate Conception, is one of comfort, although “there is no shortage of worries and suffering, although there are still reasons for apprehension about the future of mankind”. The pope called on one and all to invoke “the most Blessed Mary, thanking her for her constant intercession and praying to her so she may continue to watch over the journey of the Church and of humanity, especially of families, mothers and children.” Some of the pope’s words before the Regina Caeli were dedicated especially to children. Recalling that many parishes are celebrating their First Holy Communion in these weeks, Benedict XVI said: “To all children who in these weeks are meeting Jesus for the first time in the Eucharist, I would like to deliver a special greeting, auguring that they may become branches of the Vine that is Jesus and that they may grow up as his true disciples.” Citing the parable of the Vine and the branches, proclaimed in today’s gospel, the pontiff said: “Christian life is a mystery of communion with Jesus… the secret of spiritual fecundity is union with God, a union realized above all in the Eucharist, rightly also called ‘Communion’.” “A certain way of remaining united in Christ is to have recourse to the intercession of Mary.”[/quote] [b]2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.[/b] [img]http://www.sarahsarchangels.com/justwestofrome/OLlight.jpg[/img] [img]http://images.quizilla.com/T/tigerr112/1037552045_ghtgoddess.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.vishwabhavan.org/images/lakshmi.jpg[/img] [b]The goddess of light, Lakshmi, is one of the most well known gods. She removes darkness, the personification of sin and ignorance. Her light brightens the path one travels, and leads them to prosperity and success. She is the dispeller of sickness and misery. One very special puja day that is observed in honor of Lord Lakshmi is Diwali. It comes around once a year in the months of late October and early November. [/b] Its always interseting to me how many occultists will come on and defend Catholic doctrine and practices. [quote]Okay, Budge. I don't believe in a higher power, or in demons. I just found medieval magic to be an interesting research field.[/quote] Why the attraction to medieval magic? Did you study Kabbalistic magic while you were at it? [quote] Secondly, I didn't get my history from "history books." I read the actual period documents, many of them in the original medieval latin. I then formed an opinion based on what the sources at the time period had to say. That's not the same thing as parroting what you read in a history book[/quote] Ive gone on Forham {CATHOLIC} university and elsewhere and read what translated official sources I could find. Interesting how we came to such different conclusions.
KizlarAgha Posted November 2, 2006 Posted November 2, 2006 (edited) Are you saying my avatar is a goddess I worship? I'm so stunned I'm not sure how to react. Okay, let me explain. In Sweden, they have a mythology of trolls. And the mythology is so strong that cavities (like in your teeth) are called "tandtroll" meaning "tooth-trolls" I thought that was really cute, and mentioned it to my swedish friends online. So, they sent me some pictures of swedish trolls, one of which being the one I posted. I thought it was a very cool looking painting, so I made the girl in it my avatar. I don't worship tooth trolls! Edit: Yeah, budge, fordham as a nifty compilation of primary sources, but I'm afraid a little web research doesn't make your opinion valid. In fact, as Alexander Pope says "A little learning is a dangerous thing..." You aren't trained to read those sources, and you don't have the background to understand their context. So, I'm afraid it's unsurprising you were led astray by them. Edited November 2, 2006 by KizlarAgha
RC_ Posted November 2, 2006 Posted November 2, 2006 Whether one goes in with an open mind, or with thier mind made up drastically alters the conclusion, Budgey.
Budge Posted November 2, 2006 Author Posted November 2, 2006 Hey thats a minor thing, Youre the one who admitted studying necromancy, basically demonlogy.... Catholics have no discernment, it seems I always find one or two on Catholic boards. Dont have such an open mind your brain falls out RC.
Justified Saint Posted November 2, 2006 Posted November 2, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1109006' date='Nov 2 2006, 02:57 PM'] History can be biased. [/quote] Yours especially.
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