jswranch Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 I am Catholic (as of last year) 1. I accept Jesus as my lord and saviour 2. I am redeemed by His blood alone 3. I have faith in Jesus 4. I try and read the bible and study the Word atleast an hour a day 5. I have been born again. 6. I am sure (assured) of this salvation. 7. I am not in a state of salvation because of what I have done, but by the free gift of grace alone. 8. I spend time in prayer everyday where I find the HS speaks to me on matters of faith and the actions God wishes for me. So what else am I lacking before I can be considered a Christian by the two of you?
mulls Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 [quote]6. I am sure (assured) of this salvation.[/quote] i thought you couldn't be sure.....that you can't presume your own salvation?
Budge Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 As a new Roman Catholic, do you believe that ALL the pronouncements of Trent, confirmed and reapproved by Vatican II are true, correct, and binding?
jswranch Posted October 30, 2006 Author Posted October 30, 2006 [quote name='mulls' post='1104875' date='Oct 30 2006, 08:12 AM'] i thought you couldn't be sure.....that you can't presume your own salvation? [/quote] Great question based on a misconception. Start a new thread.
Budge Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 (edited) Actually against Catholic teachings. You used evangelical lingo, to defend yourself, found that interesting, given several of your points definitely go AGAINST traditional Catholic teaching including the teachings of Trent which are still in place. You said: [quote] 6. I am sure (assured) of this salvation.[/quote] Trent says... [url="http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html"]http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html[/url] [quote] For even as no pious person ought to doubt of the mercy of God, of the merit of Christ, and of the virtue and efficacy of the sacraments, even so each one, when he regards himself, and his own weakness and indisposition, may have fear and apprehension touching his own grace; [b]seeing that no one can know with a certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God[/b]. [/quote] [quote]ANDCHAPTER XII. [b]That a rash presumptuousness in the matter of Predestination is to be avoided. [/b] No one, moreover, so long as he is in this mortal life, ought so far to presume as regards the secret mystery of divine predestination, as to determine for certain that he is assuredly in [Page 40] the number of the predestinate; as if it were true, that he that is justified, either cannot sin any more, or, if he do sin, that he ought to promise himself an assured repentance; for except by special revelation, it cannot be known whom God hath chosen unto Himself. [/quote] You said: [quote]7. I am not in a state of salvation because of what I have done, but by the free gift of grace alone.[/quote] Trent says: [b][quote] CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema. [/quote] [/b] Im glad you believe differently from Trent and Catholicism but the beliefs you have stated above do not match Catholic teaching. Edited October 30, 2006 by Budge
Eutychus Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 (edited) Budge, I believe that poor fellow just EXCOMMUNICATED himself, and falls under the terrible curse of ANATHAMA on more than one level. Shall we mark him down as one more "Cafeteria Catholic?" Or send him an invite to a church that actually BELIEVES what he BELIEVES? Edited October 30, 2006 by Eutychus
Thy Geekdom Come Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1104921' date='Oct 30 2006, 12:48 PM'] You said: [quote]7. I am not in a state of salvation because of what I have done, but by the free gift of grace alone.[/quote] Trent says: [b][quote] CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema. [/quote] [/b] Im glad you believe differently from Trent and Catholicism but the beliefs you have stated above do not match Catholic teaching. [/quote] Actually, Budge, that quote is against pelagianism and semi-pelagianism...it says that salvation is a gift from God and not something merely earned. You just supported his argument.
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 Budge, The second case you brought up looks like it's in perfect harmony to me. I assume jswranch has more to say about the first one.
jswranch Posted October 30, 2006 Author Posted October 30, 2006 Budge, We can talk about the meaning of Trent later. Please answer the question, am I a Christian?
Budge Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 No as hard as that is for you to hear, and here is why... [b]2Cr 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].[/b]
Thy Geekdom Come Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1104933' date='Oct 30 2006, 01:05 PM'] No as hard as that is for you to hear, and here is why... [b]2Cr 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].[/b] [/quote] Then what is required to be a Christian?
Budge Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 (edited) [b]Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. [/b] This means total trust in Jesus Christ, not dependence on sacraments, religious system or church. Salvation is a free gift. This means belief in the Christ of the Bible, not false christs which include the Catholic Eucharist, and "Vicars" of christ. Edited October 30, 2006 by Budge
Eutychus Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 [quote] Actually, Budge, that quote is against pelagianism and semi-pelagianism...it says that salvation is a gift from God and not something merely earned. You just supported his argument.[/quote] Note the inserted weasle word..."MERELY." I simply cannot believe that you folks are trying to make the case that the Catholic Church believes in FREE UNMERITED grace based salvation. The ruling from TRENT, confirmed at VATICAN II, is very clear, and to further buttress up EXACTLY that it is still operative today, all one needs to do is open the CCC and quote it: [quote]Catechism of the Catholic Church 2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, [b][u]we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods[/u].[/b][/quote] Note the WEASLE WORDS here, trying to have things both way. Grace is FREE, but thereafter in order to KEEP IT, you must get on the Roman Catholic treadmill of Masses, Sacraments, Indulgences, and Purgatory. HOWEVER, if you are uber good, you can gather up MORE EARNED { Works Based } grace than you need to balance the "feathr on the scale" and pass it along as a "Catholic Lend Lease Program" to others. Clever these guys, but I'm onto how the game is played now. DENY the facts to non-Catholics, and hide behind featherly language, and when non-Catholics are not around, revert back to Catholicese and tell 'em the unvarnished truth.
Thy Geekdom Come Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1104937' date='Oct 30 2006, 01:11 PM'] [b]Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. [/b] This means total trust in Jesus Christ, not dependence on sacraments, religious system or church. Salvation is a free gift. This means belief in the Christ of the Bible, not false christs which include the Catholic Eucharist, and "Vicars" of christ. [/quote] Salvation is a free gift. You're completely right. That's why God gives it to us by means of the sacraments and the Church. However, since this isn't my thread, I'll let you get on with JSWRanch. [quote name='Eutychus' post='1104939' date='Oct 30 2006, 01:14 PM'] Note the inserted weasle word..."MERELY." I simply cannot believe that you folks are trying to make the case that the Catholic Church believes in FREE UNMERITED grace based salvation. The ruling from TRENT, confirmed at VATICAN II, is very clear, and to further buttress up EXACTLY that it is still operative today, all one needs to do is open the CCC and quote it: Note the WEASLE WORDS here, trying to have things both way. Grace is FREE, but thereafter in order to KEEP IT, you must get on the Roman Catholic treadmill of Masses, Sacraments, Indulgences, and Purgatory. HOWEVER, if you are uber good, you can gather up MORE EARNED { Works Based } grace than you need to balance the "feathr on the scale" and pass it along as a "Catholic Lend Lease Program" to others. Clever these guys, but I'm onto how the game is played now. DENY the facts to non-Catholics, and hide behind featherly language, and when non-Catholics are not around, revert back to Catholicese and tell 'em the unvarnished truth. [/quote] There's nothing weasely about it. The Catholic view is quite clear and can be seen as necessarily following from the principles Christ gave us, using right reason to draw out further principles. See this thread: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=58464"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=58464[/url]
jswranch Posted October 30, 2006 Author Posted October 30, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1104933' date='Oct 30 2006, 09:05 AM'] No as hard as that is for you to hear, and here is why... [b]2Cr 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].[/b] [/quote] And how am I believing in another Jesus? I believe in the same Jesus professed in the bible. I believe in the same Jesus professed by the early chruch between 100-200 AD through today. What beliefs of what did Jesus, besides the sacrifice of Him alone to save me, do I have to hold before I can call myself a Christian in your eyes? [quote name='Budge' post='1104937' date='Oct 30 2006, 09:11 AM'] [b]Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. [/b] [/quote] Ok, I believe this 100% and would not deny it under torture. [quote name='Budge' post='1104937' date='Oct 30 2006, 09:11 AM'] This means total trust in Jesus Christ, not dependence on sacraments, religious system or church.[/quote] Ok, I trust in Jesus Christ to save me alone. He, not some Pope, Mary or sacrament, hung on the cross so that I could be counted in the flock of God the Father. I am dependant on the grace of God alone for all that is good and all that he wants for my life. [quote]Salvation is a free gift.[/quote] Amen. I agree 100%. See #7 of my profession of beliefs.
cmotherofpirl Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 So Budge are you going to answer the question???? Its really not that difficult, like the pinned one which you have ignored for several weeks.
jswranch Posted October 30, 2006 Author Posted October 30, 2006 All others, I would like to keep this tread on topic. We can discuss the implications of Trent, VII, and CCC later. I just want to know what else I have to do before I can be called a Christian by B, E and all other takers.
cmotherofpirl Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 ok, nobody respond from now on except Budge, all else wil be deleted
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