Budge Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 [quote] [u]Ok, I trust in Jesus Christ to save me alone[/u]. He, not some Pope, Mary or sacrament, hung on the cross so that I could be counted in the flock of God the Father. I am dependant on the grace of God alone for all that is good and all that he wants for my life.[/quote] Jwsranch, Maybe you really are a Christian but if you truly believe the above, and believe in the Jesus of the Bible and am not just trying to twist evangelical lingo to confuse things, then you really are no longer a Catholic. Trent and the teachings of the Catholic church say differently then what you have written above. Trent does matter, even if you say it doesnt because Trent is the OFFICIAL teachings of the church and your statements of belief DIFFER. Thats fine with me, maybe one day it would bring you out. Since you are a new convert, I KNOW for a fact they are using evangelical lingo and telling new converts--one I personally know in my family, they dont have to believe official Catholic teachings to be a Catholic. This person was told they could reject Purgatory and the Immaculate Conception and convert to Catholicism with no problems. They did it to marry mostly.
jswranch Posted October 30, 2006 Author Posted October 30, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1104980' date='Oct 30 2006, 09:45 AM'] Jwsranch, Maybe you really are a Christian but if you truly believe the above, and believe in the Jesus of the Bible and am not just trying to twist evangelical lingo to confuse things, then you really are no longer a Catholic. Trent and the teachings of the Catholic church say differently then what you have written above.... [/quote] First, I want you to determine for yourself publically whether or not I am a Christian. All you have to do is say something like, "John, if you honestly and truly believe the 8 points you listed above and in this thread, then you are a Christian." After you do this, then we can discuss whether or not my beliefs are contary to Trent, CCC, VII etc.
cmotherofpirl Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 Ok this has been changed to non-catholics only since Budge refuses to answer. EVERYBODY else will be deleted
homeschoolmom Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 You mean "their posts will be deleted" right? Right?? Right??????
mulls Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 (edited) [quote name='jswranch' post='1104992' date='Oct 30 2006, 11:56 AM'] First, I want you to determine for yourself publically whether or not I am a Christian. All you have to do is say something like, "John, if you honestly and truly believe the 8 points you listed above and in this thread, then you are a Christian." After you do this, then we can discuss whether or not my beliefs are contary to Trent, CCC, VII etc. [/quote] Umm here we go again. the age old "what constitues being a Christian" thing. i can't remember how many of these dances i participated in (or willfully ignored) while i was spending alot of time here. but it looks like Budge is being set-up for a lose-lose situation here....if she says "No, you are not a Christian," won't that just lend credence for more nonsense like the "Budge can read people's heart" thread? and if she says "Yes, you are a Christian".....well, I doubt she would even say that, because, from what I know of her, she would be weary in giving someone a false sense of security (not to imply that jsw actually even cares what she says, or maybe he does?), and also, the most you can know on a forum like this is whether or not someone intellectually assents to some doctrinal bullet points. i think most would agree that intellectuall assent, agreement, with some ideas does isn't what makes a Christian a Christian. but Budge and jsw might agree on those 8 points, but still disagree about each other's standing before the Lord. and since it seems all of her credibility is based on answering this question then SSSPHHHHHHHHHHSjg4o438tu-gjklmvj4ou2-89mv-vmh-8-b38v6mv u498y9-ut7ksdjlg;85tuaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!! ohhh right, so this is why i stopped posting on message boards.... Edited October 30, 2006 by Raphael
jswranch Posted October 30, 2006 Author Posted October 30, 2006 (edited) Mulls, I have not even once read the "Budge can read people's heart" thread. [quote]but Budge and jsw might agree on those 8 points, but still disagree about each other's standing before the Lord.[/quote] The discussion is on whether I am a Christian. It is not a debate on what constitues a Christian. I believe Budge is a Christian. What do you say? If I truthfully and honestly profess the above 8 statements, am I a Christian or must I do something else? Edited October 30, 2006 by jswranch
mulls Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 (edited) [quote]I have not even once read the "Budge can read people's heart" thread.[/quote] fair enough, it just seems like her credibility to the point where people can say stuff like that and nobody has a problem with it. but if you can remain a stalwart of objectivity no matter how she responds, more power to you. [quote]The discussion is on whether I am a Christian. It is not a debate on what constitues a Christian. [b]I believe Budge is a Christian.[/b][/quote] that's great, but it does matter what constitutes a Christian, because if that's not defined (which i'm saying is really hard to do in a setting like this), it can just turn into an empty, check-box, what-i-was-born-into-and-believe-in-my-head label. you thinking someone is a Christian... i would like to take that to mean that their sins are forgiven, they have full access to and communion with God because of Christ alone, and will go to heaven upon their death. that's how i read that, even though there's obviously more to it than that. and that's why defining our terms matters. if you agree, then awesome. [quote]What do you say? If I truthfully and honestly profess the above 8 statements, am I a Christian?[/quote] ok, i'll bite anyways... [quote]1. I accept Jesus as my lord and saviour 2. I am redeemed by His blood alone 3. I have faith in Jesus 4. I try and read the bible and study the Word atleast an hour a day 5. I have been born again. 6. I am sure (assured) of this salvation. 7. I am not in a state of salvation because of what I have done, but by the free gift of grace alone. 8. I spend time in prayer everyday where I find the HS speaks to me on matters of faith and the actions God wishes for me.[/quote] if this is all i have to go by, never having known you in real life, not knowing your testimony, unable to have fellowship with you....if you put a gun to my head, then yes, absolutely, i'd call you a christian. Edited October 30, 2006 by mulls
jswranch Posted October 30, 2006 Author Posted October 30, 2006 (edited) [quote name='mulls' post='1105155' date='Oct 30 2006, 01:04 PM'] if this is all i have to go by, never having known you in real life, not knowing your testimony, unable to have fellowship with you....if you put a gun to my head, then yes, absolutely, i'd call you a christian. [/quote] Thanks! BTW, how would knowing: a. testimony b. know in real life c. able to have fellowship with me help you be certain without the threat of violence? Edited October 30, 2006 by jswranch
mulls Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 [quote]Thanks![/quote] hmm, that's a curious response. did you receive that as a compliment? [quote]BTW, how would knowing: a. testimony b. know in real life c. able to have fellowship with me help you be certain without the threat of violence?[/quote] because you gotta walk the walk in my book. God's too. i can't measure your faith or what exactly you really truly believe in deep down in your soul, but i can see how you live.
jswranch Posted October 30, 2006 Author Posted October 30, 2006 [quote name='mulls' post='1105166' date='Oct 30 2006, 01:12 PM'] hmm, that's a curious response. did you receive that as a compliment? [/quote] Yes, especially how some folks deny this.
Quietfire Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 Oh, I am so sorry to hijack and I promise not to interrupt again but these repsonses to an honest question really bothered me and then.... You gotta walk the walk in my book? You can see one's faith by how they live? Im not taking you out of context. I have made this same mistake again and again in my life. One of His constant criticisms was that Jesus spent time with “defiling people” like tax gatherers, swindlers, irreligious people (“sinners”), and probably even prostitutes. Though He was perfect, sinless — though He never did anything that was actually evil — by the standards of the religious, Jesus seemed regularly to have the appearance of evil. And as such was thought to be of evil. Think about this for one moment before you blast me, as I will not respond. Me thinks you may need to rethink that.
Guest T-Bone Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 I think mulls' point was that he has to take jswranch's word.
mulls Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 (edited) you gotta be kidding me. thank you t-bone. it's that whole "faith without works thing" that everyone here likes to preach about. but when the non-catholic brings up it and applies it to real life, it's pharisaism. walking the walk = growing in maturity = becoming like Christ = love. my goodness. Edited October 30, 2006 by mulls
jswranch Posted October 30, 2006 Author Posted October 30, 2006 Unless someone else wants to confirm that my 8 statements do or do not make me a Christian, this thread is continued in the tread [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=59798"]Exommunicated Myself For Assurance And Grace?, According to what?[/url]
Budge Posted November 1, 2006 Posted November 1, 2006 (edited) [quote]I believe Budge is a Christian.[/quote] Honestly Im surprised. You do know that according to the teachings of your church because I was raised, baptized and confirmed Catholic, and fully have rejected the Catholic church, I am officially a HERETIC and thusly hellbound. {Im not worried} The Dalai Lama has far more chance of getting in then me according to such teachings, and I love and affirm Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. BTW, I know there are some Catholics who have put full trust and faith, in Jesus Christ, but they are no longer Catholics once that happens they are Christians and most likely will one day be on their way out. I even was witnessing to a Catholic lady I believed was born again--[she was afraid to leave because of her mother] God really truly knows who is saved and isnt, but I do believe that some fruits of salvation are love of Gods Word, and well when someone is defending the inquisition--applies to some here--that is definitely NOT ONE. Edited November 1, 2006 by Budge
jswranch Posted November 1, 2006 Author Posted November 1, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1107355' date='Nov 1 2006, 08:03 AM'] Honestly Im surprised. You do know that according to the teachings of your church because I was raised, baptized and confirmed Catholic, and fully have rejected the Catholic church, I am officially a HERETIC and thusly hellbound. {Im not worried}[/quote] Yes I know. If you really want to be surprised, start a thread: [i]According to the teachings of the Catholic Church am I a Christian?[/i] In the text, make sure you mention you have been baptized Catholic and now still believe in Jesus. As for the heretic thing, there are two types of heretics: object matter heretics and subject matter heretics. One can still go to heaven and the other is hellbound. Only God truly knows which one you are. If you want to discuss this responsibly, you should study it. I can send you a link if you want.
mulls Posted November 1, 2006 Posted November 1, 2006 i'll take you up on a new thread, with twist.... was i better off as the catholic i was, or the non-catholic christian i am today?
Budge Posted November 2, 2006 Posted November 2, 2006 [quote]As for the heretic thing, there are two types of heretics: object matter heretics and subject matter heretics. One can still go to heaven and the other is hellbound. Only God truly knows which one you are. If you want to discuss this responsibly, you should study it. I can send you a link if you want.[/quote] The invincible ignorance clause wouldnt apply here. Really Im not worried. Its not your Pope and Magisterium determining who gets in.
RC_ Posted November 2, 2006 Posted November 2, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1108693' date='Nov 2 2006, 11:56 AM'] Really Im not worried. Its not your Pope and Magisterium determining who gets in. [/quote] And the Church doesn't teach that they do.
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