The Fruits Of Sola Scriptura

[Katholikos]

By Eileen Finan

Newsweek

Oct. 30, 2006 - This wasn’t your Daddy’s religious revival. Last Saturday morning, 200 Christian men gathered in a downtown warehouse in Nashville for a day-long spiritual extravaganza. Inside, strobe lights flashed, and tracks by the Killers thumped from speakers stacked on either side of a stage. Four large video screens showed clips of karate fights, car chases and Jackass-style stunts. Then the music lowered and Christian comedian Brad Stine appeared. With his rat-a-tat delivery and aggressive style, Stine quickly whipped the crowd into a chorus of “Amens!” “A lot of guys out there wouldn’t have the balls to be here,” he shouted. “Are you ready to be a man? Are you ready to kick ass? Are you ready to grab your sword and say, ‘OK family, I’m going to lead you?’ Buckle up. This is GodMen!”

The event was the first of what Stine and other organizers hope will be a series of testosterone-fueled Christian men’s gatherings across the country. Their purpose: to reassert masculinity within a church structure that they say has been weakened by feminization. They call it an experiment for now and don't expect, or even want, their numbers to grow too quickly. Stine and his friend and manager Mike Smith dreamed up GodMen after reading David Murrow’s 2005 book, “Why Men Hate Going to Church.” In it, Murrow points out that on any given Sunday, 13 million more adult women than men attend church in America. “We have to find a way to give [men] something that matters to them,” says Stine.

One way is to create a worship space where guys can be guys. “In most churches, you’ll see flowers and ferns at the front,” says Stine. “That’s saying, ‘This is a place that a woman has composed.’” So GodMen sought to create a place where men could admit to flaws without being judged bad Christians and be unapologetically male, including plenty of rock and roll and sex talk. “There’s this idea if you don’t drink or don’t say bad words, you are doing your Christianity appropriately, and meanwhile, that same guy is on the Internet looking at pornography,” Stine says. “It’s all a smoke screen. We need to admit these issues in order to be free.”

The group has three rules. First: only laymen are allowed as speakers, never pastors. “If a pastor says the wrong thing he can get fired,” Stine says. “A layman has nothing to lose.” Second: no one under 17 is admitted. “One of the biggest issues with men is their sexuality,” says Stine. “We are tired of Christianity sounding so candy-coated. If we can’t talk about real issues, what’s the point of the church?” And third: no women allowed. (This female reporter was allowed to observe the events while remaining largely out of sight from the crowd.) “We want to create an environment where we can talk to each other the way men really do,” Smith says, adding that existing men’s groups like the Promise Keepers—an evangelical ministry for men—often mimic the same church environment that turns some men away.

The GodMen approach certainly enticed John Crawford, a father of three teenage sons from Elkhart, Ind. Between bites of barbecued pork during a lunch break, he explained that he appreciated the rawness of GodMen. “It is not wrong for a guy to be bold and to have some testosterone,” he said. “Jesus kicked over tables in the temple when he saw bad things going on.” The GodMen gathering “is a little more rated R than PG,” said Crawford, “but Jesus wasn’t always PG”

For the GodMen, the popular portrayal of a meek Jesus promotes an emasculated ideal for the Christian male. It’s a Jesus that never existed, says author Paul Coughlin, who wrote the 2005 book, “No More Christian Nice Guy,” a seminal text for many in this crowd. “Christian men need to know that it’s OK to be tough,” he says. “Jesus is tender and he’s tough. Right now, we are more disciples of Emily Post than we are Jesus.” During a talk on Saturday titled “Jesus—A Very Bad Christian Man,” Coughlin spoke while a projector beamed a “Wanted” poster of Jesus behind him “The idea that Jesus was always meek and mild is as fictitious as anything you’ll find in Dan Brown’s books,” he told the crowd. “Jesus was mighty disrespectful toward authority.” Then Coughlin riled the audience up: “You will never be able to be a warrior of light, to really fight on behalf of justice, if you think you have to be nice all the time!”

The GodMen also reject typical Christian music. It “doesn’t usher me into the presence of God,” says Smith, Stine’s manager. “It just ushered me into boredom.” Not so with the GodMen band that played on Saturday. On stage, as a series of words flashed on screens—Boss, Bold, Brash, Bully, Blunt—the band ripped into their first tune, “Testosterone High”: “Forget the ying and the yang/ I’ll take the boom and the bang/ Give me another dose of testosterone.”

Beyond the thrashing music, Saturday’s event included a number of risqué panels. One forum, titled “Training the Penis,” addressed struggles with masturbation and pornography. These were regarded as morally reprehensible but as weaknesses that should be addressed honestly. In another talk, Nate Larkin, a former pastor, told the crowd how he picked up his first prostitute on the way to preach at a candlelight service on Christmas Eve. Larkin says that he only began to overcome his sex addiction when he stopped pretending to be a perfect Christian. “This group targets the guys who went to Promise Keepers once and didn’t go back, the guys who believe in God, but relationships in church to them seem forced and fake,” he says. “There is an under-served market and I think it is a rising tide.”

Among the new adherents is Seth Kalb, 29, from Spring Hill, Tenn. The edgy nature of GodMen, which he jokingly described as Promise Keepers on crack, drew him in. “I wanted the real meat,” he said. “They touch on real things here, like masturbation. That’s something that would never be discussed in church, where you are supposed to keep your shame quiet.” Another fan is Adam Rundell, 25, who drove 13 hours from Clay Center, Kansas, with his buddy Brian Tholstrup, 32, after reading about the conference on Paul Coughlin’s web site. Rundell says the day empowered him. “People think that you have to be a goody-two-shoes to be Christian and I hate that,” he says. “This has strengthened me. I am a man and I can stand my ground and I’m not afraid to show my impurities and if someone has a problem with that, that’s their problem.”

When the GodMen band seized the stage again, they tore into an anthem called “Grow A Pair!”: “We’ve been beaten down/ Feminized by the culture crowd,” they sang. “No more nice guy, timid and ashamed/ We’ve had enough, cowboy up/ In the power of Jesus name/ Welcome to the battle/ A million men have got your back/ Jump up in the saddle/ Grab a sword, don’t be scared/ Be a man, grow a pair!” Said Tholstrup, as he surveyed the crowd: “If 200 men are feeling this, other men are feeling it too.” Which ought to provide enough testosterone for plenty of GodMen gatherings to come.

-------------------------------------------
Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Some of their ideas are based on broad generalizations...Jesus wasn't nice, but He also wasn't a jerk or anything. The idea that Jesus was disrespectful toward authority is a broadstroke...He was against abuse of authority.

However, it's cool that people can speak their mind there and admit their faults.

[mulls]

Happy Reformation Day!

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation[/url]

[Katholikos]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1106047' date='Oct 31 2006, 11:35 AM']
However, it's cool that people can speak their mind there and admit their faults.
[/quote]

What these guys [i]really[/i] need is to make a good confession and receive absolution. Telling my sins to 200 people does me no permanent good; it may make me feel good, but my sins remain on my soul. Confession to a priest -- in persona Christi -- who has the power to forgive sins blots out my sins and makes my soul whiter than snow. I am washed in the blood of the Lamb again, and again, and again . . .

----------------------------------------
Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1106074' date='Oct 31 2006, 02:06 PM']
What these guys [i]really[/i] need is to make a good confession and receive absolution. Telling my sins to 200 people does me no permanent good; it may make me feel good, but my sins remain on my soul. Confession to a priest -- in persona Christi -- who has the power to forgive sins blots out my sins and makes my soul whiter than snow. I am washed in the blood of the Lamb again, and again, and again . . .

----------------------------------------
Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!
[/quote]
Well of course, but it's a good step in the right direction to have that kind of humility instead of the "I'm okay, you're okay" philosophy.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='mulls' post='1106073' date='Oct 31 2006, 11:05 AM']
Happy Reformation Day!

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation[/url]
[/quote]
Appropriately happening on Halloween. I guess it is a day of victory for the devil.

[mulls]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1106074' date='Oct 31 2006, 12:06 PM']
What these guys [i]really[/i] need is to make a good confession and receive absolution. Telling my sins to 200 people does me no permanent good; it may make me feel good, but my sins remain on my soul. Confession to a priest -- in persona Christi -- who has the power to forgive sins blots out my sins and makes my soul whiter than snow. I am washed in the blood of the Lamb again, and again, and again . . .

----------------------------------------
Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!
[/quote]



well, you know, some people actually like to work through and conquer their issues, so they don't have to confess the same sins over and over and over.

[kamiller42]

Now Protestants are telling us confessing to others is good? I thought it was supposed to be between you and God. Oh well, another pick and choose what we like moment.

And what's wrong with ferns and some flowers in church? What do they want? A cold concrete place of worship?!

They complain of things they see in their churches. Yet, I wonder how many of them sit on parish councils or advisory boards. How many of them volunteer to maintain the appearance of the church? It's another case of reform without rather than from within. The drum beat of the Reformation continues.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]well, you know, some people actually like to work through and conquer their issues, so they don't have to confess the same sins over and over and over.[/quote]

That's just what Confession is all about. The priest advises and counsels the penitent as a part of the Sacrament, and the penance is designed to help you overcome temptation and lead a better life. Once, when I was feeling tired and stressed, I snapped at a group of friends during the lunch break at the student chaplaincy and left without doing my fair share of the washing-up. Nobody noticed that I had gone away without doing my part, but afterwards I felt sorry - although I was still defensive. I told all this to the priest at my next Confession. My penance was to go and make everyone in the chaplaincy's social area a cup of tea.

At first I was taken aback. But I obediently went upstairs (the chapel is just below the social area) and put the kettle on. There was only one person in the social area, and she was bent over a desk at the far end. When I placed the cup of tea at her elbow, she exclaimed, "Oh, that's so kind of you! I'm getting really worked up over this essay. Could you tell?"

That penance quietly showed me what grace can do. I'm not the only overworked student in this university, but as my degree is so solitary and intense it is difficult not to see that sometimes. That Confession taught me how to be more patient with other people, and that the best way to attain peace for yourself is to contribute to the peace of others - even if it is done in a small way, such as through making tea for someone.

Will I ever lose my temper and get impatient again? Yes, I expect so. I'm a human being. But the sanctification of the soul is a work in progress, and through the Sacrament of Confession that sanctification grows deeper. Next time I won't be [i]quite[/i] so irritable. And, God willing, there will come a day when I can control my temper perfectly. It's a wonderful thing to grow in Christ, even if it is a painful process sometimes.

Edited October 31, 2006 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='mulls' post='1106363' date='Oct 31 2006, 05:19 PM']
well, you know, some people actually like to work through and conquer their issues, so they don't have to confess the same sins over and over and over.
[/quote]
Really? It's a good thing that's what Confession is for, then. : It's just a shame that some humans are human.

[mulls]

the point was that katholikos didn't like the fact that these guys were being open about their struggles.

what good is confession if you can't break the bondage, and you got nobody to help you out?

that's great if the priest acts as a counselor. a positive of evangelical christians these days is the encouragement to have people around you like you can be open and honest with about anything, for moral and prayerful support.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='mulls' post='1106793' date='Oct 31 2006, 09:18 PM']
the point was that katholikos didn't like the fact that these guys were being open about their struggles.
[/quote]
Reread what he said, it certainly wasn't that. He didn't say that he didn't like what they were doing, he said they could do better.

[quote]what good is confession if you can't break the bondage, and you got nobody to help you out?

that's great if the priest acts as a counselor. a positive of evangelical christians these days is the encouragement to have people around you like you can be open and honest with about anything, for moral and prayerful support.[/quote]

That's why the Christian faithful are advised to ask priests for spiritual direction. Futher, that's why the Church encourages support groups (we invented AA, for instance) and accountability partnerships.

The Church can't be blamed directly for people's general lack of interest.

[Socrates]

While I'd say a lot of this "revival" was rather silly and laughable, I think it actually does address some very legitimate points.

Many have observed that Christianity in the Western world has grown increasingly feminized over the past several centuries, with the result that many men are put-off by religion, regarding it as mostly fit for women and sissies. This is true in both many protestant and Catholic churches.

There have been a number of theories regarding this, but I'd say much of it has to do with the way the Christian Faith has often been watered-down, sentimentalized, and made "sweet" and "comfortable." The essence of being a "good Christian" is seen as basically being a meek and mild sissy, and anything truly challenging or controversial is downplayed, in favor of being "nice."

This is made worse by modern feminism and liberalism, with excessive emphasis being placed on finding ever more roles for women in the church, and emphasizing "tolerance" at the expense of truth, while in the meantime, it is men that are missing from the church, and there is a homosexual crisis in the clergy!

Personally, I think new-agey feminist church practices would make much worse examples of the perils of "do-it-yourself religion" than this display (and I would say present a much larger problem in Christian religion in general than silly displays of excess testosterone.)

This represents merely the latest of various self-concious attempts through the years to make Christianity appeal to "manly men" - beginning with the "muscular Christianity" movement that was popular about 100 years ago. But these tend to come off more as cheesy gimmicks than something with a lasting effect on the Christian culture.

I think a large part of the solution is returning to a greater emphasise on "politically-incorrect" ideas such as sin and sacrifice, and the struggle to fight against evil in the world. If the Christian life is seen as a manly challenge and a battle to be fought and won, this will appeal to men a lot more than reducing everything to "Jesus loves everybody" and Kumbaya.

Heck, even on phatmass, it's hard to speak out bluntly and directly against error and certain sinful practices without being censored and chided for being "inappropriate," "uncharitable" and "un-Christlike."

I think in more orthodox "conservative" churches/parishes, feminization is less of a problem. (In my parish - in which no altar girls are allowed, btw - the number of men and women is more-or-less even, rather than being female-dominated.)

While some have brought up the Confession issue, while I agree that Sacramental Confession is needed, I think it is good that these guys are at least talking forthrightly about sexual sin, and the need to overcome it. If these things are never even spoken of as sinful in the first place, why should we expect (Catholic) men to confess them? And I think blunt talk about such matters among men can be positive thing, and can be motivating by giving support and encouragement, rather than simply being alone with one's struggles in the dark.

I think for men, a kind of blunt (and even crude) approach to fighting sin tends to be more effective than the "it-offends-Jesus-and-Mary-very-much" approach. (Not meaning to be offensive there - hope that makes some kind of sense)

[Budge]

While I disagree with the modernism and the Stines silly words, the warning that the Christian church has become feminized is true. Its become even overly-feminized even for some women, including me. I know I dont respect mushy-mouthed wimpiness from either sex.

Too much of Christianity is now centered on FEELINGS, and being NICE. HOW DO YOU FEEL leading the way rather then WHAT IS GOD's TRUTH? Bible Studies are more like self-help therapy sessions and books like Purpose Driven Life, almost promote God as some kind of life coach guru who will enhance your life, kind of like what God will do for you instead of the other way around. I refuse to have anything to do with a church organization that is affilated with Purpose Driven Life. There is no foundation of truth, no standing up for what it is right. Just pats on the head and wishy-washyness, and BTW, I am pointing here at an endless slew of Prot and Christian churches not just the Catholic church.


Wow me and Socrates actually agree on a partial point while differing on the definition of Christian faith, I definitely agree with this...

[quote]
There have been a number of theories regarding this, but I'd say much of it has to do with the way the Christian Faith has often been watered-down, sentimentalized, and made "sweet" and "comfortable." The essence of being a "good Christian" is seen as basically being a meek and mild sissy, and anything truly challenging or controversial is downplayed, in favor of being "nice."[/quote]


I think a major part of the problem is that Biblical standards for leadership in the church have not been followed. There has been a departure from God's Word, moral relativism and the message DO NOT JUDGE!, has silenced Christians.

[Eutychus]

He is DEAD ON.

I've been harping on all these issues now for months, mostly to blank stares.....

And the most feminized of all the major churches is guess who?

Men who { on paper } don't care about sex, running things.

Huge emphasis on the mommy of God.

The dress up days designed to make normal men run fast. { real men don't wear lace }

Add 'em all up.

And FOR THE RECORD, the churches on the prot side are not all that much better either!

Church is giving you what the people IN THEM NOW want, they meet, provide, and exceed at doing what is valuable, and important to women.

I'm in a nationwide bible study, 1000 groups around, and each week, the questions that we answer are dominated with....

"What do you think XXXX FELT about YYY?"

"Did AAA hurt his RELATIONSHIP with BBBB?"

"How do YOU think this is applicable to YOUR LIFE today?

Totally missing, are questions on strategy, military, economics, money, conquest, winning souls, and other masculine issues.

We have CHICK CHURCH for Girly Men, and the more you give the GM, the worse it seems to get.

[Budge]

Question for Catholic men here,

is Mark Shea correct that Catholicism is more of a feminine church?

[url="http://www.mark-shea.com/fem.html"]http://www.mark-shea.com/fem.html[/url]

Many of the evangelical ones have been feminized too...

[quote]Masculine and Feminine, Evangelical and Catholic

In a mathematically perfect world, conversation between Catholics and Evangelicals would be conducted on the level of pure theology and many misunderstandings would instantly be clarified:

Evangelical: [Stirs sugar into teacup] Tell me, Friend Catholic, what your understanding is of the place of Mary in the economy of salvation? It would appear (though I could be wrong) that you worship her in some way. How do you reconcile this with the biblical witness that God alone is to be worshiped? [Offers teacup to Catholic. Begins pouring his own cup and nodding in profound listening attentiveness throughout following speech.]

Catholic: [Takes teacup. Sips thoughtfully.] Actually, Friend Evangelical, Catholics do not worship Mary. They instead accord her the highest honor due a mere creature (hyperdulia) while according God latria, the worship due to God alone. This is not strange, since we all know what it is to honor a creature (such as our mother on Mother's Day) without honoring that creature to the same degree as God. Honor is, after all, a species of love and we know from the lips of Jesus himself that, so far from insulting God, it is an act of love to God to love our neighbor. Therefore, honoring Mary with hyperdulia is, in fact, an act of love which redounds to God's glory.

Evangelical: [Sips tea thoughtfully, nodding.] Ah! I see. Lucidly spoken! I agree completely. Now, with respect to transubstantiation, I have the following inquiry...

Unfortunately, this is not usually the way conversation begins. I know this from experience, since I used to be an Evangelical. Here's what really happens:

You walk into a Catholic Church and over there is a statue of Mary with some sort of gaudy crown on it. Meanwhile, over here there's a bunch of people in the front row, and they're praying the Rosary (ten to one ratio of Mary to Our Father prayers, you notice). You've got pictures, statues, icons and lots of stuff that you look at. Same when you go into a Catholic home and there is art on the walls featuring Our Lady of the Streets or some other Marian image or statue. If the family is devout, they're praying the Rosary again, often without explaining what they are doing. If they are like many Catholics, the faith is a mixture of old catechesis and affectionate folk piety ("Padre Pio used to tell that story about how when Jesus closed the door to heaven, Mama Mary would let sinners in through the back window.") And that's your first impression. That's what you start with as an Evangelical. So an Evangelical, not unreasonably, says, "There just seems to be a lot of emphasis on Mary." But because the emphasis is not contextualized (i.e., nobody is there to tell the Evangelical what exactly is going on and rare is the parish where somebody clearly articulates it) the Evangelical is more or less in the position of an archaeologist trying to reconstruct a forgotten civilization from the statues left behind while not being able to read the language. Not surprisingly, he concludes the statues or the people they represent are being worshiped.

All this is very funny for educated Catholics, who speak the mysterious hieroglyphic language called "Tradition" the Evangelical is struggling to decode. And sometimes, humorous things result from the miscommunication. For instance, I was on an internet list group one time when an angry young Fundamentalist wrote in and said, "Why is it you guys worship statues!?" A very droll deacon wrote back to him and said, "Oh, we don't worship statues anymore, now we worship banners."

However, as tempting as it is to reply like this, it is also vital to note that, for the Evangelical, it's a live question precisely because what you are often dealing with is not a theological treatise but a set of first impressions tangled, not merely with theological but with cultural differences.

Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. Imagine yourself opening up some Catholic magazine or turning on some Catholic program and seeing an ad with language like this (spoken with a distinct Southern accent):

"Support John Paul II Ministries! Marching out in the power in the Spirit to claim victory over the powers of Hell! Anointed! Dynamic! Making an impact on this generation for Jesus Christ!!"

Doesn't sound very Catholic does it? But stop. Is there, in fact, anything in the description of our mission as Catholics that's fundamentally at odds with that kind of language? No. Not a thing. We are, in fact, called to claim victory over hell by the power of the Spirit. We have been anointed in baptism and confirmation. We are called to dynamically bear witness to Christ and to "renew the face of the earth" through the Holy Spirit.

Yet you still associate such language with the 700 Club, don't you?

Now let's try another thought experiment. You flip on your TV to the 700 Club or TBN and you see an ad there as a woman with an English accent intones, "Read The Inner Way of Silence, and allow God to invite you to enter more deeply the path of contemplation. Experience sanctity as a fruit of dialogue with the Holy Spirit. Practice the presence of God and open yourself to the gentle prompting of the Spirit by saying, as Mary did, 'I am the handmaid of the Lord, be it done unto me according to thy will.' Allow the Spirit to breathe into your quiet reflection on the work of God in Scripture and Creation. Let God breathe forth in you, as in Mary's womb, the Christ who comes to us in prayer and mystery."

Again, is there anything in this that's not biblical? Not a thing. And yet you'd never hear such an ad on the 700 Club or some other Evangelical show. Why not?
[b]
Because the language is feminine and Evangelical culture tends to be overwhelmingly masculine. Conversely, Catholic culture tends to be overwhelmingly feminine. And the two cultures often mistake their cultural differences for theological ones. The Catholic approach to God tends to be feminine, body centered, Eucharistic, and contemplative. Prayer, in such a culture, is primarily for seeking union with God. Evangelical approaches to God tend to be masculine, centered on Scripture, centered on mission, and on the Spirit working in power. Prayer, in such a culture, is primarily for getting things done. Neither of these ways of approach are wrong. Both of these are legitimate Christian ways of approaching the Gospel. Indeed, both of them are, or should be, part of the Catholic way of approaching the Gospel. [/b]
But, largely because we don't recognize that they are cultural differences, these ways of approach often constitute a collision point between Evangelicals and Catholics. Take, for instance, the different approaches to prayer. The Feminine Spirituality of the Catholic tends to see the Evangelical approach to prayer as rather shallow and utilitarian. Prayer to get things done looks like prayer which uses God as a means to an end. Meanwhile, Catholic piety tends to be seen by Evangelicals as a cold inwardness cut off from "real life." Thus, Evangelicals frequently criticize the Catholic monastery for its "retreat from reality behind the walls of the cloister", praying piously while the world is going to hell in a handbasket. The Catholic who is tempted to pass judgement needs to be reminded that prayer for daily bread is encouraged by our Lord. The Evangelical who is tempted to pass judgment needs to be reminded that Jesus went into the desert to pray and seek union with the Father. Both are legitimate forms of prayer.

Such collision points represent an opportunity and a challenge. The Catholic response to this challenge is straightforward, we must be the first to do what Catholic faith does so well: embrace the Catholic Both/And so that Evangelical masculine piety is again embraced and honored in a healthy way. And I am convinced this is happening. That's why so many cradle Catholics are responding to the wave of Evangelical converts who have poured into the Church in the past 15 years. The Catholic faith is ripe for a renewal of, so to speak, masculine piety. But, by the same token (and I speak here as a "completed Evangelical" myself), Evangelicals both inside and outside the Catholic communion must also face facts: the feminine way has been too long denied and denigrated by us. We must find a way to integrate it back into our spiritual lives if we are to fully grasp the gift Christ has won for us. It was on many levels that Jesus spoke when, as his dying act, he gave us a Mother. We have feared the Blessed Virgin, Holy Mother Church, all that is feminine, for far too long.

In sum, Jesus made us, his "beloved disciples" the children of a Heavenly Father, but also of his Mother. We have lived with the division long enough. It is time once again for all Christians to honor our Father and our Mother.[/quote]

[Winchester]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1107369' date='Nov 1 2006, 09:41 AM']
He is DEAD ON.

I've been harping on all these issues now for months, mostly to blank stares.....

And the most feminized of all the major churches is guess who?

Men who { on paper } don't care about sex, running things.

Huge emphasis on the mommy of God.

The dress up days designed to make normal men run fast. { real men don't wear lace }

[/quote]

Yes, Roman Rite priests cannot marry. I guess it's feminine to not care about sex (Fallacy the First)

I won't touch the "mommy of God" thing. Yes I will. Stay inside during thunderstorms. Why the hatred of Mary, to be so condedscending toward her. Perhaps you have lost sight of due respect in faovr of offending Catholics. It will work; I'm sure some people are positively seething at your asinine statement. Congratulations, you irrritated some people.

Actually, depending upon the culture, I would reckon men do wear lace. I guess you're putting forth the position that lace is inherently feminine. Go down to the city, Oh Plato, and free the people from their nighted ways.

[homeschoolmom]

Seems Paul didnt care about sex either.

[img]http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/courses/nes275/studentproj/fall05/coj3/priest.jpg[/img]
Yeah, and everyone knows bells and pommegranets are what all the studs wear....

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1107376' date='Nov 1 2006, 12:48 PM']
Question for Catholic men here,

is Mark Shea correct that Catholicism is more of a feminine church?

[url="http://www.mark-shea.com/fem.html"]http://www.mark-shea.com/fem.html[/url]

Many of the evangelical ones have been feminized too...
[/quote]
Budge, I applaud your approach in the above post. Thank you for asking us for our thoughts instead of telling us what they are.

The Catholic Church is feminine in a mystical way because it is the Bride of Christ, that is, as one sees in looking at the prophecies about God coming like a Bridegroom for His Bride, they are, in a sense, married. This is what allows them to be one body and it is why we, the Church, say that we are the body of Christ ("the two shall become one flesh").

However, Catholic spirituality on a more individual basis can be very feminine or very masculine. On one hand, the contemplatives tend to practice a more feminine spirituality, one where the Catholic lies open, docile, waiting for the Bridegroom to come and enlighten, lift up, and bring into union. On the other hand, active members of the Church tend to be more masculine (perhaps this is why so many online, who certainly tend to be more masculine, are more abrasive when it comes to the faith, although we should be gentle but firm). Such active members are those who go out into the streets and live out the Catholic faith from day to day. They are the defenders and providers for the Church.

The split comes from a key distinction, I think. The Church as a whole is feminine and when one is entering into the mystery of the Church toward Christ, one is practicing a more feminine role (thus, when we are worshipping, we are to be open and docile, asking God's word to penetrate us, etc.). When one is entering into the mystery of the Church toward the world, that is, the mission to build up the Church and to evangelize the world, one takes on a more active, masculine role (thus we become defenders and providers for the Church in this role). Both are perfectly valid roles within the Church and different people practice each to different extents, but I think all Catholics are called to practice both...however, our primary role is toward Christ, and so the Church as a whole is feminine because the Church, when looking to Christ, represents humanity (feminine, since God is the masculine to humanity) and, when looking toward humanity, represents Christ (masculine, since humanity is feminine to Christ).

Anyway, that's just a matter of my observation. It doesn't mean that Catholic men are called to act like women or vice-versa; it just means that there are different roles which are typically classified as such and we use those classifications.

[Kosh]

Don't diss Mary. Or priests, for that matter.

And while I might agree that some Catholic churches (or lots, I don't really know) have been "feminized", the Catholic Church as a whole has not. And I think its amusing how people keep flip-flopping on whether or not we're pro women or anti-women. Da Vinci Code seemed to think we oppress women. You guys seem to think that we're too feminized. Make up yer mind already.