The Fruits Of Sola Scriptura

[Mary-Kathryn]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1107369' date='Nov 1 2006, 10:41 AM']
He is DEAD ON.

I've been harping on all these issues now for months, mostly to blank stares.....

[color="#FF0000"] You know very well your statements, like the ones below, are said only to get emotional reactions and not much else.[/color]

And the most feminized of all the major churches is guess who?

[color="#FF0000"]Jesus didn't seem feminine to me when He was hanging on His Cross or when He was walking this earth. I don't think I'd want to question His Humanity or His Divinity. I believe. How about you?[/color]

Men who { on paper } don't care about sex, running things.

[color="#FF0000"]Priests do care about "sex", as you carelessly put it. They have simply been called to a different vocation than married men and are celibate. I have not had a chance to read it, but I have heard that John Paul The Great's Theology of The Body is an absolute masterpiece. You might want to pick it up. Of course they also have to care about "running things" whether it be from the parish level all the way to the Vatican level. They care most of all about the souls of those entrusted to them. [/color]

Huge emphasis on the mommy of God.

[color="#FF0000"]Mary is The Mother of God...nothing more...but nothing LESS[/color].

The dress up days designed to make normal men run fast. { real men don't wear lace }

[color="#FF0000"]There are different forms of dress all over the world. Simply because you are not a part of that particular belief or culture does not mean it is unmanly. Kilts are worn in Scotland and in Ireland I think for certain ceremonies, other countries have their native dress also. [/color]
[color="#FF0000"]So it is with The Church. Hopefully someone here can give you legitimate links that can provide you a good historical [not hysterical] overview.[/color]

Add 'em all up.

[color="#FF0000"]It equals a below-the-belt argument with not one bit of rational discussion. You look for a fight. You accuse our Church of being feminine, our priests of being the same and of not caring about sex [ "on paper" insinuating otherwise]. You further insult The Mother of God for good measure--which you need to think of how you would feel if someone insulted YOUR mother, then think what you just did to God's mother...then tried to get us going by the classic "all I get is blank stares" One of the many many, many, reasons why I couldn't stomach the god you worship [/color]
[/quote]



note: my answers in red

Edited November 1, 2006 by Mary-Kathryn

[Winchester]

I seem to recall something about the church (Catholic or not) being the Bride of Christ. Wouldn't that be feminine?

[Mary-Kathryn]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1107832' date='Nov 1 2006, 05:30 PM']
I seem to recall something about the church (Catholic or not) being the Bride of Christ. Wouldn't that be feminine?
[/quote]

Yes of course. But not in the sense he seems to be implying. It seems he is implying that The Church is somehow "weak" or "girly". Goes along with the "real men don't wear lace" thing

[Socrates]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1107369' date='Nov 1 2006, 10:41 AM']
Huge emphasis on the mommy of God.
[/quote]
So real men don't respect Mother?

Should take that up with [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_rBidCkJxo"]Mr. T![/url]

[cathoholic_anonymous]

Since when did feminine become another word for 'sissy'? And since when did decorating the church with flowers become a sissy thing to do? Our Lord created the flowers, and not even the greatest masterpiece of human artwork can ever match up to the beauty of His creation. So as well as using our God-given artistic talents to decorate churches, isn't it natural to make places of worship beautiful with flowers? As humans, we're not going to create anything better in a hurry.

Furthermore, lots of men enjoy gardening. My grandfather used to spend hours planning out his garden, tending to it, and just sitting in it to admire its loveliness. He was in the Royal Navy during the Second World War and he did back-breaking work on a farm after his discharge. He was no sissy. It is just a stereotype that flowers are a 'girly' thing - a stereotype invented and propogated by men, I might add, as they seem to have had the privilege of deciding what is appropriately feminine or not over the years. Flowers were made by God. And He is not a pansy. :

[Balthazor]

This sect is a little off base I think.

It used to be that men did go to church a lot more.
In fact the Salt mines in Wieliczka have chapels where the miners, which I assure you were all male, said their prayers. They made these Chapels, these miners, heavy blue collar workers in a hole in the ground.....and you see thsee beautiful chapels. Made by the callosed hands of salt miners. Amazing. How is that femine?
And it used to be in major cities there would be REALLY early masses on Sunday, so that the printers that ran the presses for the newspaper could go to mass...once again an all male demographic until VERY recently.
Chanting.... used to be restricted to men.
The Priesthood ...restricted to men.

I just do not see how anyone can look at the Catholic Church and get a pink fluffy femanine world.
The Church of knights and crusaders?
The church unpon which the modern day university system was founded....which also used to be restricted to males....
the Church which within it has stone Cathedrals with gargoyles clinging to it's eves????
Huh?
Being a real man does not mean you have to be a baudy, testosterone junkie. Look at Vince Lombardi, for example, few would call him femanine or weak. And yet he always had a Rosary in his pocket, he was a devoted Catholic.

These guys are not looking very carefully I think. Or perhaps they are interpreting things in their own way.

To be a masculine does not just mean to be not femanine, but rather to compliment the femanine. This testosterone church lacks balance, it is also , in my opinion borderline selfish, because it eliminates the element of having family come together to Church. Which is askinig for trouble down the road. In todays world most people see their family very little because they work so much. What this church does is give guys a free pass to go alone and hang out with other guys excluding thier family.....this could be asking for trouble.

[Mary-Kathryn]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1108527' date='Nov 2 2006, 07:40 AM']
And feminine or not over the years. Flowers were made by God. And He is not a pansy. :
[/quote]

[desertwoman]

Yes. Why is feminity being demonized. The same for masculinity. It's quite crazy in my opinion.

[Budge]

Are men supposed to be the leaders of a church or not?

Feminized churches always go the way of feminism, the most extreme ones, entering into worship of the "goddess" {I believe the elevations of Mary in Rome definitely are related to its feminization} Churches run by women and homosexuals always give up Biblical truth, for their own. The UU which is probably an extreme feminine church ran by homosexuals openly with its worship of the goddess held these things in common.

Doesnt the Bible consider effiminancy alone to be a sin?

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, [b]nor effeminate[/b], nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1108564' date='Nov 2 2006, 12:00 PM']
Are men supposed to be the leaders of a church or not?

Feminized churches always go the way of feminism, the most extreme ones, entering into worship of the "goddess" {I believe the elevations of Mary in Rome definitely are related to its feminization} Churches run by women and homosexuals always give up Biblical truth, for their own. The UU which is probably an extreme feminine church ran by homosexuals openly with its worship of the goddess held these things in common.

Doesnt the Bible consider effiminancy alone to be a sin?

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, [b]nor effeminate[/b], nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[/quote]
The Church has elevated Mary no higher than God did in the Assumption: she is a venerated creature, perfected by God's grace, and held out as an example of authentic humanity.

[desertwoman]

Feminization, not homosexual. So to say, a man crying, a man communicating and using his mind instead of brawn all the time. Why is it demonized. It could be a cultural thing, especially in my circle.

But I guess these are gender roles and these are learned behavior.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='desertwoman' post='1108670' date='Nov 2 2006, 11:33 AM']
Feminization, not homosexual. So to say, a man crying, a man communicating and using his mind instead of brawn all the time. Why is it demonized. It could be a cultural thing, especially in my circle.

But I guess these are gender roles and these are learned behavior.
[/quote]
Agreed, and they can keep both genders locked into strangulating molds.
Real men can cry and real women defend the hearth.

[123]

[quote]Stine quickly whipped the crowd into a chorus of Amens!A lot of guys out there wouldn't have the balls to be here, he shouted. Are you ready to be a man? Are you ready to kick ass? Are you ready to grab your sword and say, OK family, I'm going to lead you? Buckle up. This is GodMen![/quote]

Wow, this seems to be a statement of the world, not Christians. I am greatly suprised that christian conferences have stooped this low to just keep people happy with their religion...Are Christains really this bored with Christ?

Edited November 2, 2006 by GloriaIesusChristi

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1106947' date='Oct 31 2006, 10:13 PM']I think in more orthodox "conservative" churches/parishes, feminization is less of a problem. (In my parish - in which no altar girls are allowed, btw - the number of men and women is more-or-less even, rather than being female-dominated.)[/quote]
Yeah, I go to an indult Tridentine parish and the pews are full of young Catholic guys who are really into their faith--there's definitely a majority of them over women. And the church looks the way a church is supposed to look--with roses in the Sanctuary, and a big crucifix. I think there is more of an emphasis on the Christ Crucified, the Mass as a sacrifice and the battle between good and evil than in other churches and so it draws men who are looking for an authentic expression of the faith.

[quote name='Socrates' post='1106947' date='Oct 31 2006, 10:13 PM']I think for men, a kind of blunt (and even crude) approach to fighting sin tends to be more effective than the "it-offends-Jesus-and-Mary-very-much" approach. (Not meaning to be offensive there - hope that makes some kind of sense)[/quote]
it's true in a sense. i know a guy who went to confession, told the priest about struggles with masturbation, and the priest said "St. Thomas Aquinas said it's better to have sex with your mother than to masturbate." He never did it again.

[Mary-Kathryn]

[quote name='photosynthesis' post='1108764' date='Nov 2 2006, 01:20 PM']
i know a guy who went to confession, told the priest about struggles with masturbation, and the priest said "St. Thomas Aquinas said it's better to have sex with your mother than to masturbate." He never did it again.
[/quote]

That should cure anyone

[kamiller42]

This thread reminds me the paradox of the Catholic Church continues, and it's a good thing. To me it means it's on its proper course.

The Church is accused of being too masculine (male only priesthood, male hierarchy, male dominated Scripture, ...) while also being too feminine (too much Mary, too many rosaries, too many ferns and flowers, ...)

The Church interprets the Bible too literally (Eucharist) while not being literal enough (1st commandment, shall call no one Father, ...).

The Church is too prudish about sex (celibacy, chastity, ...) and also too free with it (against birth control, pro-life, ...).

The Bible is full of paradoxes. Jesus was full of paradoxes. My Church is full of paradoxes. GK Chesterton would be proud. We all should be proud.

"Paradox has been defined as ‘Truth standing on her head to attract attention.’"
- GK Chesterton

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Budge' post='1108564' date='Nov 2 2006, 10:00 AM']
Are men supposed to be the leaders of a church or not?

Feminized churches always go the way of feminism, the most extreme ones, entering into worship of the "goddess" {I believe the elevations of Mary in Rome definitely are related to its feminization} Churches run by women and homosexuals always give up Biblical truth, for their own. The UU which is probably an extreme feminine church ran by homosexuals openly with its worship of the goddess held these things in common.

Doesnt the Bible consider effiminancy alone to be a sin?

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, [b]nor effeminate[/b], nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[/quote]

For the record, I think that effeminate refers to me, not to actual women. I don't like Paul...

[Winchester]

[quote name='Budge' post='1108564' date='Nov 2 2006, 09:00 AM']
Are men supposed to be the leaders of a church or not?

Feminized churches always go the way of feminism, the most extreme ones, entering into worship of the "goddess" {I believe the elevations of Mary in Rome definitely are related to its feminization} Churches run by women and homosexuals always give up Biblical truth, for their own. The UU which is probably an extreme feminine church ran by homosexuals openly with its worship of the goddess held these things in common.

Doesnt the Bible consider effiminancy alone to be a sin?

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, [b]nor effeminate[/b], nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[/quote]


Again. I'll type slowly. Isn't the Church called the Bride of Christ?

You think Christ would choose a masculine bride?

[VeniteAdoremus]

We identify with God as the Father (which I think is great - there are very little things that annoy me more than the "God's a she, too"-movement, let no doubt exist about that), but because we always speak in analogies like that (the church as the Bride of Christ is another) we're likely to forget that He's beyond things like gender.

The Church is the Bride of Christ because we belong to Him, we're "reserved" for Him, and bound to Him alone. It doesn't say much about the supposed "gender" of the Church.

I don't think the Church is particularily feminine. I don't think we should talk in "masculine/feminine aspects" at all. It's true that men and women are different, in a more fundamental way than two women or two men are different (although they, too, can be VERY different). Our vocations are different, we look different, and it's 99% of the time easy to tell whether someone is a man or a woman. But (apart from the physical) it's often hard to tell why. If you split people up in traits, you're not doing them justice. The same goes for organisations.

Yes, our Church is caring for the weak, the sick, the poor, the children, the lost souls. That's what we've been sent out to do. We're supposed to turn the other cheek, always act with charity, be meek as lambs - no, that doesn't sound very masculine. It does sound like Christ, the Shepherd, who (in my humble opinion) IS masculine.

We shouldn't ignore the gender issues in the Church. They're real, and they're important. But we shouldn't let them lead us into thinking EVERYTHING is a gender issue.

Edit: typo one of many.

Edited November 4, 2006 by VeniteAdoremus

[son_of_angels]

As a man, I'm offended by this portrayal of "Christian" devotion. What they have created is little more than a male mystery cult, centered around the basest level of manhood.

On the other hand, at my campus, when we organized a Saturday devotion to our Lady, icons and "girly" statues and all, with rosary and invocation referring to Rose and Lily, etc. It was pretty much five or six guys, with only the very occasional girl, all gathered around worshipping one Lady.

The trick to engaging men is to emphasize the importance of daily, real faith, and frank confession of faults. It is to emphasize the realness of faith, and not simply what they want.