Executing Sadam

[CrossCuT]

[size=1]Is it SOO wrong to not support murder?
[/size]

[Winchester]

That's a serious misapplication of that quote.

[CrossCuT]

[size=1]Yea well even if it is Sadam, it is still killing a person.
I am against the death penalty even if the church is not.
Im not going to hell for it.
[/size]

[catholicinsd]

For this case I say there are so many things worse than death.

[Guest Rick777]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1113269' date='Nov 6 2006, 08:55 PM']
.. the question of Saddam remaining a threat is a legitimate one to consider, although I don't think that is why he is being executed.
[/quote]

That's what I think. So, I'm Catholic. Probably no.

[CrossCuT]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1113487' date='Nov 7 2006, 01:43 AM']
For this case I say there are so many things worse than death.
[/quote]
[size=1]Yes
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[littlebreakdowns]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1113269' date='Nov 6 2006, 08:55 PM']
However, with that said, the question of Saddam remaining a threat is a legitimate one to consider, although I don't think that is why he is being executed.
[/quote]

Exactly. They're not killing him to protect people - they're killing him for doing bad things. I'm not cool with that.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='littlebreakdowns' post='1113613' date='Nov 7 2006, 10:44 AM']
Exactly. They're not killing him to protect people - they're killing him for doing bad things. I'm not cool with that.
[/quote]
Did that idea just 'come to you in a flash of brilliant light'?
Have you thought about the 'local insurgents' who are fighting the new Iraqi Government just to bing Sadaam back to power? What organization or group would be targeting the judges, lawyers, and court clerks.

[littlebreakdowns]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1113746' date='Nov 7 2006, 11:10 AM']
Did that idea just 'come to you in a flash of brilliant light'?
Have you thought about the 'local insurgents' who are fighting the new Iraqi Government just to bing Sadaam back to power? What organization or group would be targeting the judges, lawyers, and court clerks.
[/quote]

Do you honestly think that the insurgents are going to stop killing just because he's being killed? He'll be made a martyr. This isn't going to make the problems over there any better.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1113269' date='Nov 6 2006, 08:55 PM']
I deserve to hang. I thank God every day for not giving me what I deserve. In fact, this sentiment is built right into the Roman Canon (Eucharistic Prayer I):
However, with that said, the question of Saddam remaining a threat is a legitimate one to consider, although I don't think that is why he is being executed.
[/quote]
They're hanging him because he hanged other people. It's an eye for an eye ruling.
[size=1](Those are the facts. I have not stated my opinion one way or the other.)[/size]

[Red Knight]

[quote name='littlebreakdowns' post='1113912' date='Nov 7 2006, 01:24 PM']
Do you honestly think that the insurgents are going to stop killing just because he's being killed? He'll be made a martyr. [b]This isn't going to make the problems over there any better.[/b][/quote]

What problems? What do you expect to be happening in Iraq right now? There is a war being fought around the world and Iraq is one of the primary battlegrounds. Whether or not Saddam is put to death is irrelevant with regards to the war on terror. It is relevant to the Iraqi people and the soveriegnty of their government and the legitimacy of their judicial system.

People are going to continue blowing themselves and other people up regardless of what happens to Saddam.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='littlebreakdowns' post='1113912' date='Nov 7 2006, 02:24 PM']
Do you honestly think that the insurgents are going to stop killing just because he's being killed? He'll be made a martyr. This isn't going to make the problems over there any better.
[/quote]
Doh. The onese killing to get Sadaam back into power will stop. Who wants a Dead President? Wait. That didn't come out right.

Who wants a Dead Dictator? It's not going to solve all the problems in Iraq, just the ones killing because of Sadaam. Unless you believe that Sadaam is worth a half dozen expendable lives because he was 'The President'.

[Aloysius]

The Catholic Church does not teach that it is wrong to kill a man as retribution for killing others. It teaches that this is perfect justice, not reversed but rather confirmed by Our Lord, but that when nations have the capability to use non-lethal means and sufficiently protect society without enacting this perfect justice, it can be a greater good.

The means provided by the United States of America are not applicable here, because the ultimate good of Iraq is that it not be dependent upon the United States, the United States wants it to be stable on its own. Iraq tried Saddam. If Iraq's forces, and only Iraq's forces, are incapable of defending their society sufficiently without enacting perfect justice on Saddam then Iraq is justified in executing Saddam, for whosoever sheddeth a man's blood by man shall his blood be shed; Our Lord never reversed that principal of the natural law given in the Old Testament.

Saddam deserves death for his crimes. Iraq cannot sufficiently protect its own society from the instability offered by the insurgents who fight hoping Saddam might one day regain power. Therefore, Iraq may execute Saddam.

Of course, the United States has the means to keep the Iraq society relatively stable even while holding Saddam with safe non-lethal means. But the United States is a temporary power in the equation: Iraq itself does not have the capability to hold Saddam prisoner for the duration of his lifetime without danger of him being freed.

[God Conquers]

Al,

The Church does teach that this is perfect justice as expressed by God. And we are supposed to exercise perfect justice.

But we don't teach taking a life for a life, because the Church also images God's perfect mercy.

[Didymus]

I can't say I blame the Iraqis for doing this. I mean, I would want Al Quaida factions and leaders to receive the death penalty for their actions against Americans, but this is more than that for the Iraqis. Sadam actually took power of the government when he was killing and massacreing their people. Although I'd wouldn't be totally against giving him life in prison, I'm leaning more towards the death penalty. This is more than just a mass murderer.

Edited November 8, 2006 by Didymus

[dairygirl4u2c]

I appreciate Al's response. I'm not sure if he considered this. If Iraq asked the US to hold Saddam, I don't think arguing anything about dignity would be warranted. The CC teaches to keep the life if possible, so that would seem to me to trump some abstract notion that they should only tend to their own matters compettely, and if they can't be sure to hold Saddam securely, then execute him. I'm sure the US would hold him if Iraq asked us to.

I don't see the reasons behind everyone elses justification. The best other reason I saw was that Saddam's living would encourage people to chaos. Unless that was meant in the sense of what Al said, I don't see how that would be the case. It seems like a flimsy rationalization to justify killing him, and ignoring that the CC at least unofficially (i mean not ex cathedra, de fide or dogmatically etc, officially in that it came from its spokes people) teaches he shouldn't be killed.

I'd be interested in seeing a debate with people who think what they said was only a recommendation that doesn't need to be followed, versus a recommendatin that does need to be followed.

[mofca]

What's the point of this discussion. The people of Iraq are Muslim. Do you think it even matters to them whether the Catholic church approves or not?

[Azriel]

[quote name='mofca' post='1120918' date='Nov 15 2006, 04:58 PM']
What's the point of this discussion. The people of Iraq are Muslim. Do you think it even matters to them whether the Catholic church approves or not?
[/quote]


It doesn't matter to them, but it matters to us.

[Red Knight]

[quote name='mofca' post='1120918' date='Nov 15 2006, 03:58 PM']
What's the point of this discussion. The people of Iraq are Muslim. Do you think it even matters to them whether the Catholic church approves or not?
[/quote]

The majority, yes. However, there are substantial minorities of Christian and Zoroastian faiths.

[stuckinamo]

i don't really care who you are or what you've done.........no one deserves to be killed by another human being. that's just wrong.