Minimum Wage

[Red Knight]

The minimum wage is a bad idea. Why? It's a price floor, and price floors have a tendancy to negatively impact the economy.

For more details check [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_floor"]here[/url].

[quote]
Price floors cause surpluses. When there is a minimum wage law, a surplus of labor is created (more people are looking for jobs than can find jobs). With this price floor, those who can find jobs, win (they were being paid a smaller wage, and now they get a higher wage), but unemployment also occurs.
[/quote]

[Winchester]

And your solution?

Perhaps unions could assassinate CEOs? Shall we return to the days of the industrial revolution?

[Groo the Wanderer]

Solution: git off yer lazy duff, do a good job at work, and get raises and promotions

Minimum wage is not supposed to be for peeps trying to support a family. It is for unskilled, entry level employees.

If you get a job and remain unskilled at it for a long time, whose fault is that? If yer employer is a bad one and doesn't give raises or promotions for hard work...this is America...find a new job.

SO tired of the whining: "I have no skills and no drive to get any, I do a half-baked job at work, show up late and call in sick a lot, but I am ENTITLED to a living wage in return. It's my right!"

[Red Knight]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1115072' date='Nov 8 2006, 11:10 AM']
And your solution?

Perhaps unions could assassinate CEOs? Shall we return to the days of the industrial revolution?
[/quote]

I tend toward a laissez-faire attitude regarding the economy. I haven't worked out all the details though.

In general though, any significant changes to how the government interacts with the people and the economy, both of which are far overdue, will be painful in the short term, yet beneficial in the long term.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' post='1115081' date='Nov 8 2006, 11:28 AM']
Solution: git off yer lazy duff, do a good job at work, and get raises and promotions

Minimum wage is not supposed to be for peeps trying to support a family. It is for unskilled, entry level employees.

If you get a job and remain unskilled at it for a long time, whose fault is that? If yer employer is a bad one and doesn't give raises or promotions for hard work...this is America...find a new job.

SO tired of the whining: "I have no skills and no drive to get any, I do a half-baked job at work, show up late and call in sick a lot, but I am ENTITLED to a living wage in return. It's my right!"
[/quote]


So if a job is "unskilled labor," then it's okay to not pay a livable wage? I believe the last time I checked that "unskilled" does not mean "unneccesary." It does typically equate to exploitable.

Plenty of hard-working people are out there who don't make a just or livable wage.

I'm not worried about me. I'm a professional. Of course, I have two jobs.

[quote name='Red Knight' post='1115086' date='Nov 8 2006, 11:38 AM']
I tend toward a laissez-faire attitude regarding the economy. I haven't worked out all the details though.

In general though, any significant changes to how the government interacts with the people and the economy, both of which are far overdue, will be painful in the short term, yet beneficial in the long term.
[/quote]

Yes, the lack of a minimum wage was quite beneficial to the companies. It seems social justice doesn't take hold without arm twisting.

[kujo]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' post='1115081' date='Nov 8 2006, 12:28 PM']
Solution: git off yer lazy duff, do a good job at work, and get raises and promotions

Minimum wage is not supposed to be for peeps trying to support a family. It is for unskilled, entry level employees.

If you get a job and remain unskilled at it for a long time, whose fault is that? If yer employer is a bad one and doesn't give raises or promotions for hard work...this is America...find a new job.

SO tired of the whining: "I have no skills and no drive to get any, I do a half-baked job at work, show up late and call in sick a lot, but I am ENTITLED to a living wage in return. It's my right!"
[/quote]

Wow...how incredibly ignorant, insensitive and uncharitable.

I am a full time college student who is trying to make ends meet without the use of financial aid from the state or from my parents. I work at Cold Stone where I make $6.00 per hour. I work as much as I can while making sure I attend all 6 of my classes and study and occasionally eat and sleep, giving me about 32-36 hours of work per week. My average pay check is about $400 before taxes. And, between paying my phone bill, my rent, for groceries....things get stretched pretty thin. Sometimes I just can't afford to get the groceries I need; sometimes it takes me a few extra days to pay the phone bill. Recently, my car was repossessed because I got behind on my car payments.

I don't say all of that to get pity, nor am I whining because God always provides for me. What I am saying is that I am making about minimum wage and I struggle to even support myself. Think about the person with a wife, a few kids, a mortgage...it becomes impossible to support your family, no matter how much you work. The "minimum wage" [i]should[/i] be something that even the most "unskilled, entry level employee" can live on. And, with energy costs soaring, housing costs sky-rocketing, and the general cost of being an American on the rise, these people, regardless of their level of education, are feeling the majority of the crunch.

As Catholics, we must recognize the call to feed the hungry and help the lame. It is not enough for us to attest to the "boot-strap" ideology of most within the Republican party; rather, we must get down to the nitty-gritty of the matter. The fact is that some of the people living at or below the poverty line in our nation are there for reasons that are beyond their control. Can some of them fix the problems themselves? Absolutely. But most are victims of their own surroundings. And since when is it such a bad thing for our government, on our behalf, to help its citizens?

Will raising the minimum wage solve all of our economic problems? No. But will it help a sector of our society that is struggling to survive? You bet it will.

Edited November 8, 2006 by kujo

[Balthazor]

I am also against raising the minimum wage. this is a band aid solution which will only inflate the dollar.

[kujo]

[quote name='Balthazor' post='1115112' date='Nov 8 2006, 01:21 PM']
I am also against raising the minimum wage. this is a band aid solution which will only inflate the dollar.
[/quote]

You say that this is a "band-aid solution." My question to you is what is the wound which this "band-aid" is covering?

[Balthazor]

That is easy. People demand a higher living wage to compete with the higher cost of living...however as soon as you raise the living wage the cost of living also raises. it is a vicious circle.

This is an effective stategy to kkep voter's happy because it's results are immediate, those on minimum wage get more money in the short term. However in the long term the money is worth less because of inflation and higher living cost. Voters can see in the immediate future if they are getting more money, when in fact different or more creative taxation could actually put or keep more money back into thier pockets and at the same time foster economic growth. However that is unlikely to happen since the avereage voter has not studied a lot of financial economics.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' post='1115081' date='Nov 8 2006, 11:28 AM']
Solution: git off yer lazy duff, do a good job at work, and get raises and promotions

Minimum wage is not supposed to be for peeps trying to support a family. It is for unskilled, entry level employees.

If you get a job and remain unskilled at it for a long time, whose fault is that? If yer employer is a bad one and doesn't give raises or promotions for hard work...this is America...find a new job.

SO tired of the whining: "I have no skills and no drive to get any, I do a half-baked job at work, show up late and call in sick a lot, but I am ENTITLED to a living wage in return. It's my right!"
[/quote]

Only to end up having your job outsourced to India anyway?

[kujo]

[quote name='Balthazor' post='1115134' date='Nov 8 2006, 01:50 PM']
That is easy. People demand a higher living wage to compete with the higher cost of living...however as soon as you raise the living wage the cost of living also raises. it is a vicious circle.

This is an effective stategy to kkep voter's happy because it's results are immediate, those on minimum wage get more money in the short term. However in the long term the money is worth less because of inflation and higher living cost. Voters can see in the immediate future if they are getting more money, when in fact different or more creative taxation could actually put or keep more money back into thier pockets and at the same time foster economic growth. However that is unlikely to happen since the avereage voter has not studied a lot of financial economics.
[/quote]

So the issue here is inflation and taxation?

[Balthazor]

That is easy. People demand a higher living wage to compete with the higher cost of living...however as soon as you raise the living wage the cost of living also raises. it is a vicious circle.

This is an effective stategy to kkep voter's happy because it's results are immediate, those on minimum wage get more money in the short term. However in the long term the money is worth less because of inflation and higher living cost. Voters can see in the immediate future if they are getting more money, when in fact different or more creative taxation could actually put or keep more money back into thier pockets and at the same time foster economic growth. However that is unlikely to happen since the avereage voter has not studied a lot of financial economics.

[kujo]

[quote name='Balthazor' post='1115134' date='Nov 8 2006, 01:50 PM']
That is easy. People demand a higher living wage to compete with the higher cost of living...however as soon as you raise the living wage the cost of living also raises. it is a vicious circle.

This is an effective stategy to kkep voter's happy because it's results are immediate, those on minimum wage get more money in the short term. However in the long term the money is worth less because of inflation and higher living cost. Voters can see in the immediate future if they are getting more money, when in fact different or more creative taxation could actually put or keep more money back into thier pockets and at the same time foster economic growth. However that is unlikely to happen since the avereage voter has not studied a lot of financial economics.
[/quote]

So the issue here is inflation and taxation?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Balthazor' post='1115112' date='Nov 8 2006, 12:21 PM']
I am also against raising the minimum wage. this is a band aid solution which will only inflate the dollar.
[/quote]

It's only true because large companies want to keep their profit margins at the same level but don't want to reduce the overinflated salaries of executives.

It's not a truism, it's a byproduct of greed.

[Balthazor]

In my opinion it is. There was also a comment on outsourcing. That is also a real risk that raising minimum wage poses. Besides that the whole issue of illegal working. If a company suddenly has to raise wages, it can do a few things.
It can pass the cost on to the customer..which results in higher cost of living.
It can move to where it is not as expensive to employ someone, or outsource resulting in less jobs.
It can cut production, resulting in lost jobs.
It can go on the black market and employ people illegally for less than the living wage.
It can cut benefits to make up for the loss of profit.

So really economically I do not see how this will help anyone, the economy in general or anyone in specific.
Comprendo?

[quote name='Winchester' post='1115141' date='Nov 8 2006, 12:58 PM']
It's only true because large companies want to keep their profit margins at the same level but don't want to reduce the overinflated salaries of executives.

It's not a truism, it's a byproduct of greed.
[/quote]

Agreed but rich people do not get rich by being stupid, or spending money.

Edited November 8, 2006 by Balthazor

[kujo]

[quote name='Balthazor' post='1115144' date='Nov 8 2006, 02:03 PM']
Agreed but rich people do not get rich by being stupid, or spending money.
[/quote]

The Defense enters Paris Hilton as Exhibit A.

[Balthazor]

LOL, insantiy by inheritance....
There is a diference between becoming rich and being born rich.

Edited November 8, 2006 by Balthazor

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='kujo' post='1115100' date='Nov 8 2006, 12:01 PM']
Wow...how incredibly ignorant, insensitive and uncharitable.

As Catholics, we must recognize the call to feed the hungry and help the lame.

And since when is it such a bad thing for our government, on our behalf, to help its citizens?

Will raising the minimum wage solve all of our economic problems? No. But will it help a sector of our society that is struggling to survive? You bet it will.
[/quote]

1. no you are not - don't put yourself down like that. You are just young.

2. yes - the church should do this, NOT the government. If the govt got OUT of the welfare business, they would not have to tax us so badly. Less taxes means more philanthropy. Churches and the private sector do a much more efficient job anyway.

3. bad since it has created a welfare state where hard work and achievement are no longer valued. Rather, it has created a sense of entitlement. You want the govt to help us? Have it protect our borders, then get the heck out of our lives for the most part - ever computed your tax bill for the year *shudders*

4. It will help NONE of our problems. If it would, then just raise the minimum wage to $30k/yr. Help a sector to survive - no.

Take your own situation. Let's say that min wage was raised to..oh..$10/hr. Now you have companies that can no longer afford two bodies to do the owrk - they can only afford one. You have now cut the job market in half. AND you now have to compete in that smaller job market with say, a man of 35+ with a family. If you were the employer having to pay 1 person to do the job of 2, on whom would you take the risk? A kid with no experience or drive that can fall back on parents if he decides the job is too hard, or a mature grownup that has a much greater motivation to bust his arse for that job.....

I speak from experience. I was a restaurant manager for 9 years. Because of confiscatory payroll taxes, I could only afford to start peeps at minimum wage. Hiring a new employee costs a TON while they are training. It takes about 3 mos to get one fully productive. Given that the average tenure in that industry is 6 mos (lazy peeps, unreliable peeps, thieves, etc), it is not a good investment to pay more than that initially. That said, when I did manage to find a good employee that was willing to work hard, learn the job well, and take care of my customers, I rewarded them with better schedules, more hours (if they wanted them), and a higher pay rate.

I sympathize with your situation, but you have to realize the reality of the other side of the coin. Higher min wage means less jobs to go around - the employers still have to pay bills too. Before you go off on CEO salaries (yes they are inflated) remember that large corporations provide relatively few of those min wage jobs - most are created by small businesses. Forcing wage hikes on them without increasing productivity can spell doom for most of them.

Do your time, carry your cross, work hard, and study. It will pay off for you soon. Min wage jobs are not meant to be long term positions - anyone who makes it such has bigger issues.

BTW - I have personally had 3 min wage jobs in my life. At NONE of them was I making min wage longer than 6 months. I busted my byootocks to earn a raise (2x) or I found greener pastures (1x).

Edited November 8, 2006 by Groo the Wanderer

[Lil Red]

the problem that i have is that our state's min. wage has not increased since 1996 - 10 years ago. that's a huge deal

[Red Knight]

1. Government influence in the economy tends to negatively effect the economy. The explanation of price floors I linked too is one example.

2. Try to not look at the dollar amount, but look at the relative purchasing power. If you remove price floors and price ceilings, the market dictates the prices. Everything else being stable the wage paid will be livable because the prices for goods adjust accordingly. If the price is too high, people don't buy. That's how the market, when allowed to adjust itself, works.

3. I am not unfeeling to my fellow man. I believe that taking care of those who have fallen on hard times is not the role of the government but of the populace, through charitable organizations.

4. When governments get into welfare, nobody benefits. Those that need it, don't get enough, and those that don't need it get too much.

5. Large federal governments are not flexible enough to accomodate the extremely fluid changes in the social welfare needs of the people. State governments are better suited to this role, and private organizations and churches are the best options.

6. We expect too much of our federal government. We have burdened it with too many social welfare related roles. Remember, the two primary roles of the federal government are to 1. Regulate Interstate Commerce and 2. Protect the body politic from all threats both foreign and domestic.