Minimum Wage

[Groo the Wanderer]

AMEN! YOU get it Red Knight....YOU get it

[Balthazor]

Well said Knight.
I too have worked several low paying jobs minimum wage and I have always been a blue collar worker dispite my education level.

As I was saying earlier a more creative approach to taxes would be more beneficia than a raise in base rate pay.

As a general rule whenever the Government gets involved in economy it is always detrimental.
Though this raise may provide a very short period of releif for minimum wagers it would not be very long before they are hurting again.

[Red Knight]

[quote name='Balthazor' post='1115164' date='Nov 8 2006, 01:30 PM']
Though this raise may provide a very short period of releif for minimum wagers it would not be very long before they are hurting again.
[/quote]


This seems to be the standard operating procedure for the Democrats (Don't get me wrong here, they're not the only ones, just the usual ones.) to follow.

Step 1: There are people not making a livable wage? Oh no, raise the minimum wage.

Step 2: Now there are more unemployed people. Oh no, more public works projects.

Step 3: What? We can't fund the projects? Raise taxes!

Step 4: Return to step 1.

[cappie]

In Australia we have what's called the Fair Pay Commission which delivers the "minimum wage" . The Commission announced an increase of $A27.36 per week for minimum wage rates up to $A700 per week and $A22.04 per week for minimum wage rates $A700 per week and above.

The Australian Fair Pay Commission has been established to set and adjust the federal minimum wage to promote the economic prosperity of the people of Australia. The Commission was established under the Workplace Relations Amendment (Work Choices) Act 2005.

Australia has the lowest unemployment rates 4.7% (since the 60's) an inflation rate of 3%

The minimumwage doesn't seem to have hurt Australia

[Groo the Wanderer]

Does that 4.7% include the aboriginal population?

[cappie]

as a pergentage of the population....taken alone as a distinct group...no

Much the same as you would have an unemployment number then broken down into African-American, Hispanic, age groups etc...

[curtins]

minimum wage is a socialist scheme. It doesnt work. Who determines what is a 'livable wage'? Its completly arbitrary. If we can make MW 7 bucks why not 10? and why not then 15? how about 20? soon ur up to 100 an hour for someone that scans groceries (not saying thats a bad job- just not worth 100 bucks an hour).

[Kosh]

From an economic standpoint the government should not interfere at all.

However, we can see how well THAT worked during the industrial revolution. TONS of wealth in the hands of a few managers and all the workers nearly starving to death. If you're only worried about the economy, then you are utterly correct. As christians, that should not be all we care about.

[Anomaly]

I have worked almost my entire adult life in 'blue collar' industry, without a college education.
If you can only expect to make minimum wage, that is all that job is worth. There are LOTS of jobs that pay way more, but people don't want to do it. Australia's minim wage is operating in an entirely different situation and cappie did not provide any context. How does the weekly minimum relate to the cost of living in Australia? Australia does not have 15million illegal aliens. They have a closed economy. It is very hard for you or I to go to Australia and get a job, even as a legal immigrant.
A living wage to work as a Wal-Mart greeter is ridiculous. If somebody is physically or mentally unable to hold a job that pays a living wage, then that's when the government should step in. Sorry, someone who is smart enough to go to College and chooses to not get loans, financial aid, or help from their parents, is not owed a living wage so they can go to College full time and work part time. Nobody is promised an easy life.
Minimum wage thats a 'living wage' overpays lousy employees and rewards underachievers. It penalizes those who feel they should work hard. I'm not surprised that priests and clergy who don't have a regular job don't see this. In the construction industry, we would not have ANYONE if we paid minimum wage. I'll pay $10 an hour for unskilled labor and provide free health insurance just to compete in the industry.
People won't pay $5 for a big mac because it's not worth it. They person who puts together the burger doesn't get paid $15 an hour because MD couldn't sell the burger for enough.
I've done blue collar work for years. I get ahead because I work harder. If I don't like how I'm treated, I get a job elsewhere. I've been unemployed and had to pay bills while dead broke. I resent the fact that I have to work 60-80 hours a week and pay hundreds in taxes so some lazy bum can get welfare because he can't show up to work on time, try to do a good job, and is fired every few moths. I've seen it for decades. I've hired men and women in construction at starting wages, and no education. Many now make 50-60k a year with bennies and retirement because they work hard. Many others easily make 40k plus as leadmen or foremen. I still see others that after 10 years, they make $10 - 12 bucks an hour because they can't keep a job, can't show up on time, don't care, call in sick regularly, don't ever think for themselves.
Seriously. If you have a minimum wage job for more than a year, your are either a mental feeb, loser, or have made the choice to have other priorties than your job, such as going to school or doing drugs. Sorry, that's undeniable reality in America. It's WORK. We wouldn't do it for free. Hard work does win out eventually. It doesn't happen in a short period of time.

[Balthazor]

The point is not leaving the "little guy out in the cold"...the point is finding ways that actually work to help the little guy. Raising minimum wage just doesn;t always work. There are a lot of other economic strings that can be pulled....but most people just don't see or understand them.
Besides it is also proven that what might work for one country at one phase in time may not work for another country at another phase in time. Like Democracy, a country's economy must be invented and adapted to suit specific needs. We have absolutly no idea why government interference seems to help some countries and hurt others. it could be the value that the citizens put on the social services provided. But Austrailia, though it is a beautiful and lovely country is not America and the same strategy may not work there. (Just like American transplant democracy may not work in Iraq)

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1115584' date='Nov 8 2006, 06:51 PM']
I have worked almost my entire adult life in 'blue collar' industry, without a college education.
If you can only expect to make minimum wage, that is all that job is worth. There are LOTS of jobs that pay way more, but people don't want to do it. Australia's minim wage is operating in an entirely different situation and cappie did not provide any context. How does the weekly minimum relate to the cost of living in Australia? Australia does not have 15million illegal aliens. They have a closed economy. It is very hard for you or I to go to Australia and get a job, even as a legal immigrant.
A living wage to work as a Wal-Mart greeter is ridiculous. If somebody is physically or mentally unable to hold a job that pays a living wage, then that's when the government should step in. Sorry, someone who is smart enough to go to College and chooses to not get loans, financial aid, or help from their parents, is not owed a living wage so they can go to College full time and work part time. Nobody is promised an easy life.
Minimum wage thats a 'living wage' overpays lousy employees and rewards underachievers. It penalizes those who feel they should work hard. I'm not surprised that priests and clergy who don't have a regular job don't see this. In the construction industry, we would not have ANYONE if we paid minimum wage. I'll pay $10 an hour for unskilled labor and provide free health insurance just to compete in the industry.
People won't pay $5 for a big mac because it's not worth it. They person who puts together the burger doesn't get paid $15 an hour because MD couldn't sell the burger for enough.
I've done blue collar work for years. I get ahead because I work harder. If I don't like how I'm treated, I get a job elsewhere. I've been unemployed and had to pay bills while dead broke. I resent the fact that I have to work 60-80 hours a week and pay hundreds in taxes so some lazy bum can get welfare because he can't show up to work on time, try to do a good job, and is fired every few moths. I've seen it for decades. I've hired men and women in construction at starting wages, and no education. Many now make 50-60k a year with bennies and retirement because they work hard. Many others easily make 40k plus as leadmen or foremen. I still see others that after 10 years, they make $10 - 12 bucks an hour because they can't keep a job, can't show up on time, don't care, call in sick regularly, don't ever think for themselves.
Seriously. If you have a minimum wage job for more than a year, your are either a mental feeb, loser, or have made the choice to have other priorties than your job, such as going to school or doing drugs. Sorry, that's undeniable reality in America. It's WORK. We wouldn't do it for free. Hard work does win out eventually. It doesn't happen in a short period of time.
[/quote]


Oh c'mon! Quit holding back....tell us how you REALLY feel!

[Winchester]

[quote name='Balthazor' post='1115144' date='Nov 8 2006, 01:03 PM']
Agreed but rich people do not get rich by being stupid, or spending money.
[/quote]

There's a difference between rich and Nazi rich.


The market is created by those with the power. Drugs, for instance, are artificially inflated in price. I know the phrase is "what the market will bear" but let's put it honestly: "How hard are they willing to let us screw them?" is far more accurate.

The only answer outside of government will be private action. Enough injustice and we'll see executives hanging from lampposts.

Gee, I hope the unskilled know how to tie a proper knot...

[Winchester]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1115584' date='Nov 8 2006, 06:51 PM']
I resent the fact that I have to work 60-80 hours a week and pay hundreds in taxes so some lazy bum can get welfare because he can't show up to work on time, try to do a good job, and is fired every few moths. [/quote]

Actually, the bulk of your taxes go to the military so that you can drive to work without being blown up, to highways that are underbuilt and patched with insufficient materials, designed by complete idiots and specced by the people who were too dumb to design them in the first place. Then, of course, there is corporate welfare to bail out morons who ran their companies into the ground trying to satisfy stockholders, or to convince companies not to send the jobs overeas so the scumbags at the top can upgrade their already disgusting lifestyles with an increased profit margin.

I get almost all my money back because of my deductions, which include property taxes that equal more than a month of my salary.

I've showed up to work early and was a loyal employee. But before my FD job, I was unskilled (screwable) labor, and hard work meant little. I greatly enjoyed leaving my last job because the bossman was a complete jerk. When I was in the restaurant business, one of the managers asked me whether I'd like to get into management. I told her it disgusted me that managers got bonuses for cutting employee hours, and I'd rather be an honest peon. She was highly offended, but hey, I brought in customers so I had a little bit of a voice and I used it.

[RC_]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1115821' date='Nov 9 2006, 03:08 AM']
There's a difference between rich and Nazi rich.

[b]The market is created by those with the power.[/b] Drugs, for instance, are artificially inflated in price. I know the phrase is "what the market will bear" but let's put it honestly: "How hard are they willing to let us screw them?" is far more accurate.

The only answer outside of government will be private action. Enough injustice and we'll see executives hanging from lampposts.

Gee, I hope the unskilled know how to tie a proper knot...
[/quote]

Exactly why we need a minimum wage.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1115824' date='Nov 9 2006, 02:30 AM']
Actually, the bulk of your taxes go to the military so that you can drive to work without being blown up, to highways that are underbuilt and patched with insufficient materials, designed by complete idiots and specced by the people who were too dumb to design them in the first place. Then, of course, there is corporate welfare to bail out morons who ran their companies into the ground trying to satisfy stockholders, or to convince companies not to send the jobs overeas so the scumbags at the top can upgrade their already disgusting lifestyles with an increased profit margin.



I've showed up to work early and was a loyal employee. But before my FD job, I was unskilled (screwable) labor, and hard work meant little. I greatly enjoyed leaving my last job because the bossman was a complete jerk. When I was in the restaurant business, one of the managers asked me whether I'd like to get into management. I told her it disgusted me that managers got bonuses for cutting employee hours, and I'd rather be an honest peon. She was highly offended, but hey, I brought in customers so I had a little bit of a voice and I used it.
[/quote]

1. not quite true. Social programs are the largest single line item in the budget after the military, not the rest you mentioned.

2. that's what is so great about America! If you are unhappy with your employer, you are free to leave at will and find another employer. Try THAT in China...or Russia

[quote name='RC_' post='1115853' date='Nov 9 2006, 04:10 AM']
Exactly why we need a minimum wage.
[/quote]


If we gonna do that, then do it right - make minwage $30k/yr. Any objections?

[Balthazor]

Groo You are right! The single largest allocation is entitlements. And those are nonnegotiable....

then after that it is the military.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1115824' date='Nov 9 2006, 03:30 AM']
Actually, the bulk of your taxes go to the military so that you can drive to work without being blown up, to highways that are underbuilt and patched with insufficient materials, designed by complete idiots and specced by the people who were too dumb to design them in the first place. Then, of course, there is corporate welfare to bail out morons who ran their companies into the ground trying to satisfy stockholders, or to convince companies not to send the jobs overeas so the scumbags at the top can upgrade their already disgusting lifestyles with an increased profit margin.

I get almost all my money back because of my deductions, which include property taxes that equal more than a month of my salary.

I've showed up to work early and was a loyal employee. But before my FD job, I was unskilled (screwable) labor, and hard work meant little. I greatly enjoyed leaving my last job because the bossman was a complete jerk. When I was in the restaurant business, one of the managers asked me whether I'd like to get into management. I told her it disgusted me that managers got bonuses for cutting employee hours, and I'd rather be an honest peon. She was highly offended, but hey, I brought in customers so I had a little bit of a voice and I used it.
[/quote]
You've only worked for a few employers? For how many years?
Using only personal ancedotes to disqualify an economic concept sounds so....LIBERAL.

[Socrates]

Yeah, it would be wonderful if everybody was guaranteed enough income to raise a family comfortably, etc. However, the fact remains there is no such thing as a free lunch. Since minimum wage is minimum across the board, this would force employers to pay everyone who works any job, no matter how temporary or menial, $15/hr or such.
This would in fact mean much fewer jobs and much more unemployment all across the board. This would be an unmitigated disaster for everybody, resulting in much more poverty. That would be a bad situation, no matter how noble the intentions.

Socialism by any other name doesn't work.

Edited November 10, 2006 by Socrates

[Kosh]

thats why the government shouldn't interfere too much and why the minimum wage shouldn't be too high.

[XIX]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' post='1115969' date='Nov 9 2006, 11:47 AM']
If we gonna do that, then do it right - make minwage $30k/yr. Any objections?
[/quote]
A single person could live on $15k. Which is $7.50 an hour if you work forty hour weeks and fifty weeks per year.

EDIT: I know of a guy who makes 35k/yr and raises two kids. The wife stays home and raises the kids, and they save money every year because they are frugal and don't blow off money on stupid stuff. (source: Catholic Courtship in an Oversexed World by Father Morrow)

Edited November 10, 2006 by XIX