What If Satan Repented...

[jwangkal]

Lucifer was an Archangel, one of the 7 Archangels of God. Having rebelled, he and his followers were thrown out of Heaven. They lost God's grace and have since then been angels of darkness, seeking the ruin of Souls.

We, Catholics believe that sin takes us away from God's grace. When we repent and go to Penance, Christ restores us to grace through His Precious Blood, making us Children of The Father.

I wish to open this Topic as a debate. What if one of us convinces Lucifer to repent and return to Heaven as a servant? I know most us us would say " He's too proud to do that". Does God's nature (God is the Loving Father of all Creation) condemn Satan to eternal bondage?(meaning Satan is bound never to see sense and rerturn to God?)

By this Question I wish to see a healthy debate on God's nature versus our human reasoning.

[Winchester]

Angels are spirit and will. Satan had one time to make his decision and he made it. He is incapable of repentance, just as the souls in Hell are incapable.

It's not really a question of God's nature, but of angelic nature.

[heyyoimjohnny]

If Satan repented, God would forgive him. However, it is impossible for him to repent. He made his choice, and it is irreversible. In the same way, we cannot make any more choices after we die. We can keep making choices while we're still alive because we still operate in the context of time. No time for Satan, no time for the departed. The will is permanantly fixed. And when we say "permanant" we're still thinking in the context of time, which only applies to the physical realm.

But again, yes, God would forgive him. Satan would just never ask for forgiveness. Same as with all condemned (God forbid!) souls: the will is fixed. It is their choice, their rejection of God, and it is irreversible.

...what winchester said....

[cmotherofpirl]

Angels only had one chance, they are not as lucky as us humans.

[jwangkal]

If God gave Lucifer one more chance to take human flesh and exist in the context of time... ? do you think it still would be possible?

[XIX]

In theory, if God decided to do that, then yes it would be possible. Any human being is capable of repentance while still on earth. [i]any[/i] human. But beyond theological curiosity, the question is moot because Satan is in Hell and does not have a chance to change.

However, angels and human who have passed into eternity live outside of time. Change requires time to take effect (though purgatory get a bit complicated), so in essence, those in heaven or hell can never change.

[beatty07]

Do angels exist outside of time? both answers seem to present problems. If they do, then how can they have had a "beginning" as creatures? Can something be eternally created? If no, then how can a will, existing in time, be a will if it can't change?

I can't see that either is more likely or more implausible...did Thomas talk about this? It's kind of interesting how little authoritative doctrine their is about angels.

[jwangkal]

I want to quote the Book of Revelations, but this may create a new thread of discussion, but folks, lets try and keep to the Subject at hand.

Revelations Chapter 4 discribes the Presence of God or may I say the Throne of God, and the creatures worshipping Him. Verse 5 talks of The Seven Lamps, which are the Seven Spirits of God, which I suppose are the Seven Archangels ( Correct me if I'm Wrong).
They are ever present in Heaven worshipping before God's throne. question is, Is Lucifer one among them or Was another Archangel created to replace him?
Does this vision describe thing to come in future or something in Eternity?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='JP3' post='1117535' date='Nov 11 2006, 12:23 PM']
I want to quote the Book of Revelations, but this may create a new thread of discussion, but folks, lets try and keep to the Subject at hand.

Revelations Chapter 4 discribes the Presence of God or may I say the Throne of God, and the creatures worshipping Him. Verse 5 talks of The Seven Lamps, which are the Seven Spirits of God, which I suppose are the Seven Archangels ( Correct me if I'm Wrong).
They are ever present in Heaven worshipping before God's throne. question is, Is Lucifer one among them or Was another Archangel created to replace him?
Does this vision describe thing to come in future or something in Eternity?
[/quote]
1. All the angels were made at once (simul). This was defined, I believe at Trent. Therefore, no angels were created to replace any others.
2. Angels do exist in a type of time, but not in the way we exist in time. They exist in aeviternity. There is a sequence to what they do, but not "time" in the way we think of it.
3. Satan rebelled once for all. Because he doesn't have the type of time he would need in order to repent, he can't repent. Satan did what he did knowing full well what he was doing and that it was a one-time, eternal, fundamental choice.
4. Satan cannot be incarnated in order to take on flesh so that he can have the option to change his mind. No demon can ever become incarnated, nor can any angel, at least not in the sense of the word we mean by "incarnation." Angels and man are two completely different things. Spirits cannot possess flesh by taking it on and acting on it, but they cannot "fuse" with it. The only being ever to do so was God, and that by means of the hypostatic union. Demons do not have that kind of power.

[123]

I don't think that GOD wouldnt forgive him, Satan will not apologize, he hates God and sees no wrong in what he does.

[Guest semmab]

keep in mind that this isnt jsut about satan existing outside of time. angels have way more knowledge than we do about God and us and eternity etc etc.... you know, beatific vision and all.... satan knew what God was going to do, and he didnt like it. and still doesnt. he's not going to "come around" because there's no new information for him to learn to change his mind. it wasnt a lack of understanding, it was a knowledgable decision to choose what isnt God. it was a decision he makes forever; he's seen God and prefers not to have Him. smells of elderberries for him, dude. he doesnt regret his decision, he'll never repent, because he still prefers to choose his own pride and his own 'glory' over God's. this is why he wants so many souls in hell, because it's his way of making God's plan, which he despises, fail; it's his way of having glory and power for himself, in 'beating' God. he's never going to look at souls and think "aww dang, i made a mistake." he's just gluttonous and lustful for the destruction of souls.

[chickens4life]

[quote name='semmab' post='1117679' date='Nov 11 2006, 05:04 PM']
keep in mind that this isnt jsut about satan existing outside of time. angels have way more knowledge than we do about God and us and eternity etc etc.... you know, beatific vision and all.... satan knew what God was going to do, and he didnt like it. and still doesnt. he's not going to "come around" because there's no new information for him to learn to change his mind. it wasnt a lack of understanding, it was a knowledgable decision to choose what isnt God. it was a decision he makes forever; he's seen God and prefers not to have Him. smells of elderberries for him, dude. he doesnt regret his decision, he'll never repent, because he still prefers to choose his own pride and his own 'glory' over God's. this is why he wants so many souls in hell, because it's his way of making God's plan, which he despises, fail; it's his way of having glory and power for himself, in 'beating' God. he's never going to look at souls and think "aww dang, i made a mistake." he's just gluttonous and lustful for the destruction of souls.
[/quote]
I agree compleatly, you took the words right out of my mouth.

God has mercy on us and gives us chances to change, because we are able to learn more and then make better dicisions than we had before. but in heaven, that isn't so, you have the fullness of truth right then and there, if you don't like it at first, there is nothing else you can learn that would make you change your mind.

[heyyoimjohnny]

ah, interesting... I guess my "angels existing out of time" concept was a bit skewed. thanks guys!

[jwangkal]

Much as Angels have more knowledge that we humans, it's limited, compared to God's knowledge. Let's remember that. I think God allows things to be the way they are, I mean the existence of good and evil, so that we can choose to be His friends out of our own will. That applies to all creatures.

Could somebody respond to my question about the Seven Archangels. ( I was refering to the description in the Book of Revelation chapter 5. Correct me if I misinterpret it ) If there was no replacement for Lucifer, does it mean that He is ever in Heaven worshiping before the Throne of God, and at the same time burning in Hell. (Angels are not omnipresent)

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='JP3' post='1118665' date='Nov 13 2006, 02:34 AM']
Much as Angels have more knowledge that we humans, it's limited, compared to God's knowledge. Let's remember that. I think God allows things to be the way they are, I mean the existence of good and evil, so that we can choose to be His friends out of our own will. That applies to all creatures.

Could somebody respond to my question about the Seven Archangels. ( I was refering to the description in the Book of Revelation chapter 5. Correct me if I misinterpret it ) If there was no replacement for Lucifer, does it mean that He is ever in Heaven worshiping before the Throne of God, and at the same time burning in Hell. (Angels are not omnipresent)
[/quote]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01476d.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01476d.htm[/url]

[123]

Let me re-phrase what I said earlier.

1 John 1:9 says that those who are [b]penatent[/b] will be forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness.

The issues is that Satan isn't penetant, and never will be. He finds to wrong in what he did. He lead his rebels against God's army and since then they have always worked hard to get even with God for kicking them out. They know God but, they hate him.

[jwangkal]

[quote name='GloriaIesusChristi' post='1118790' date='Nov 13 2006, 06:41 PM']
Let me re-phrase what I said earlier.

1 John 1:9 says that those who are [b]penatent[/b] will be forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness.

The issues is that Satan isn't penetant, and never will be. He finds to wrong in what he did. He lead his rebels against God's army and since then they have always worked hard to get even with God for kicking them out. They know God but, they hate him.
[/quote]

Most of us who have contributed to this topic have emphasized the on the [i][b]fact[/b] [/i] that Satan won't repent.

I know that for us humans, the grace to repent comes from God. God's grace, as a result of our own or someone else's prayer, or the sacraments etc, could lead a hardcore sinner back to God.

Does the same also apply to other creatures, in this case the fallen angels? Do you think God's grace is sufficient to lead them to repentence?

Edited November 13, 2006 by JP3

[beatty07]

[quote name='JP3' post='1117535' date='Nov 11 2006, 11:23 AM']
I want to quote the Book of Revelations, but this may create a new thread of discussion, but folks, lets try and keep to the Subject at hand.

Revelations Chapter 4 discribes the Presence of God or may I say the Throne of God, and the creatures worshipping Him. Verse 5 talks of The Seven Lamps, which are the Seven Spirits of God, which I suppose are the Seven Archangels ( Correct me if I'm Wrong).
They are ever present in Heaven worshipping before God's throne. question is, Is Lucifer one among them or Was another Archangel created to replace him?
Does this vision describe thing to come in future or something in Eternity?
[/quote]

The seven lamps might be the same seven from 1:20, but the word changes from lykniai in 1:20 to lampades in 4:5, so maybe not. If they are the same, then they represent the Seven Churches of Asia Minor, burning in the presence of God. Another problem is that 1:20 talks about the angels of the Churches, it doesn't talk about the Churches as spirits themselves. 4:5 is clear that the lamps are spirits. It seems like a good guess that the lampades of 4:5 are something different from the lykniai of 1:20.

But the seven Archangels? I think you're referring there to 8:2. It seems like a stretch to me to identify the lamps of 4:5 with them. "spirits" vs. "angels", "lamps" not appearing at all.

At any rate, the seven angels before the Throne are executing God's commands and doing His will in chapters 8,9, and 11. Not to mention two other angels who just sort of show up in 8:3 and 10:1. So I don't see how Lucifer could be one of them. Was Lucifer originally one of seven who had to be replaced? Um, maybe? Some of the luciferian legends and mythology would support that somewhat. But I don't think anything biblical or dogmatic would say one way or the other.

Regarding whether the events are in eternity or future, the answer is both and more. Eternity, being a vision of the Presence and Throne. Future, being the temporal effects of what "happens" in eternity. But also the present, meaning the time of the writing. Revelations is in its primary literal sense a book for a persecuted Church...hence the seven Churches of Asia being the seven lampstands before God in chapter one.

It's rather striking how undeveloped, or at least underplayed, our understanding of Satan is. My suspicion is that this is wisdom on the Church's part. Satan easily becomes a fascination, then an obsession. People get so fascinated by exorcisms and the like that they forget about the Gospel.

[jwangkal]

[quote name='beatty07' post='1118858' date='Nov 13 2006, 08:00 PM']


It's rather striking how undeveloped, or at least underplayed, our understanding of Satan is. My suspicion is that this is wisdom on the Church's part. Satan easily becomes a fascination, then an obsession. People get so fascinated by exorcisms and the like that they forget about the Gospel.
[/quote]

Yeah, you're right about that. Our main focuss should be Our Lord. Though we being in battle against evil everyday, should have knowledge about the nature of our enemy.
And I guess The Holy Spirit gives that knowledge to the Church.
Exorcisms are fascinating because of all these stories we hear of when we are growing up, about Satan being a dangerous creature, it instills fear in many people and when they ever come across an exorcism they react to it as it always has been, with curiosity.

[RC_]

[quote name='beatty07' post='1118858' date='Nov 13 2006, 12:00 PM']


At any rate, the seven angels before the Throne are executing God's commands and doing His will in chapters 8,9, and 11. Not to mention two other angels who just sort of show up in 8:3 and 10:1. So I don't see how Lucifer could be one of them. Was Lucifer originally one of seven who had to be replaced? Um, maybe? Some of the luciferian legends and mythology would support that somewhat. But I don't think anything biblical or dogmatic would say one way or the other.

[/quote]

Judas, who betrayed God, had to be replaced.