What If Satan Repented...

[N/A Gone]

l_d, phatty...this is one of those issues that I would answer different with TWT

sorry, continue

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='semmab' post='1117679' date='Nov 11 2006, 05:04 PM']
keep in mind that this isnt jsut about satan existing outside of time. angels have way more knowledge than we do about God and us and eternity etc etc.... you know, beatific vision and all....
[/quote]
The angels did not have the beatific vision until after they chose to stay with God. They did have natural revelation, but not supernatural revelation, at the "time" of the fall.

[jwangkal]

[quote name='JP3' post='1118819' date='Nov 13 2006, 07:20 PM']
Most of us who have contributed to this topic have emphasized the on the [i][b]fact[/b] [/i] that Satan won't repent.

I know that for us humans, the grace to repent comes from God. God's grace, as a result of our own or someone else's prayer, or the sacraments etc, could lead a hardcore sinner back to God.

Does the same also apply to other creatures, in this case the fallen angels? Do you think God's grace is sufficient to lead them to repentence?

[/quote]

[Winchester]

The seven angels are Michael, Raphael, Doc, Ishmael, Herschel, Bob, and Stanley.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1122903' date='Nov 17 2006, 11:11 PM']
The seven angels are Michael, Raphael, Doc, Ishmael, Herschel, Bob, and Stanley.
[/quote]


you missed Gabriel! If you are going to make some up, at least get the three most famous right.....

[Winchester]

But if I put everyone in, it might look too real.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1123148' date='Nov 18 2006, 11:49 AM']
But if I put everyone in, it might look too real.
[/quote]


I did like Herschel and Stanley. And Ishmael. Ok i guess you can keep them.

[jwangkal]

[quote name='JP3' post='1118819' date='Nov 13 2006, 07:20 PM']
Most of us who have contributed to this topic have emphasized the on the [i][b]fact[/b] [/i] that Satan won't repent.

I know that for us humans, the grace to repent comes from God. God's grace, as a result of our own or someone else's prayer, or the sacraments etc, could lead a hardcore sinner back to God.

Does the same also apply to other creatures, in this case the fallen angels? Do you think God's grace is sufficient to lead them to repentence?

[/quote]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='JP3' post='1125895' date='Nov 22 2006, 05:15 AM']

[/quote]
God's grace can never lead the fallen angels to repentence because it is impossible for them to repent. There is a Latin phrase in the theology of grace: "quidquid recipitur recipitur secundum modum recipientis" - "whatever is received is received according to the mode of the receiver." Someone who cannot receive the grace to repent cannot repent.

[HeavenlyCalling]

I believe there is a passage from Isiah that refers to the fall of Lucifer, the King, that was later thought to be about Satan as well, does anyone know the verse? It refers to Lucifer as the 'morning star thrown from Heaven', I jst cant remeber...

[jwangkal]

[quote name='HeavenlyCalling' post='1126270' date='Nov 23 2006, 02:15 AM']
I believe there is a passage from Isiah that refers to the fall of Lucifer, the King, that was later thought to be about Satan as well, does anyone know the verse? It refers to Lucifer as the 'morning star thrown from Heaven', I jst cant remeber...
[/quote]

It's Isaiah Chapter 14 verse 12.

[jwangkal]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1125999' date='Nov 22 2006, 07:26 PM']
God's grace [b]can never [/b] lead the fallen angels to repentence because [b]it is impossible [/b] for them to repent. There is a Latin phrase in the theology of grace: "quidquid recipitur recipitur secundum modum recipientis" - "whatever is received is received according to the mode of the receiver." Someone who cannot receive the grace to repent cannot repent.
[/quote]

So am I right to say that you mean that God is capable of providing the grace of repentence for all, like a sower who throws seeds at random, But the result depends on the disposition of the recipient?

I guess somewhere in the Gospel our Lord says that the greatest sin, which is unforgivable, is that against the Holy Spirit, the sin of unrepentence, I suppose.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='JP3' post='1126624' date='Nov 23 2006, 04:37 AM']
So am I right to say that you mean that God is capable of providing the grace of repentence for all, like a sower who throws seeds at random, But the result depends on the disposition of the recipient?

I guess somewhere in the Gospel our Lord says that the greatest sin, which is unforgivable, is that against the Holy Spirit, the sin of unrepentence, I suppose.
[/quote]
God pours out His grace toward all, but will not force it. Since the angelic (and thus also the demonic) nature does not allow for change within the creature, it is impossible for them to be closed to grace at one "moment" and open to it at another. Therefore, they cannot receive grace and, accordingly, God's grace cannot change them. The grace has the power to turn hearts in itself, but it only works when we cooperate with it, in accordance with God's love, which allows us to be free.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='JP3' post='1126624' date='Nov 23 2006, 04:37 AM']
So am I right to say that you mean that God is capable of providing the grace of repentence for all, like a sower who throws seeds at random, But the result depends on the disposition of the recipient?

I guess somewhere in the Gospel our Lord says that the greatest sin, which is unforgivable, is that against the Holy Spirit, the sin of unrepentence, I suppose.
[/quote]
God pours out His grace toward all, but will not force it. Since the angelic (and thus also the demonic) nature does not allow for change within the creature, it is impossible for them to be closed to grace at one "moment" and open to it at another. Therefore, they cannot receive grace and, accordingly, God's grace cannot change them. The grace has the power to turn hearts in itself, but it only works when we cooperate with it, in accordance with God's love, which allows us to be free.

[Winchester]

[quote name='HeavenlyCalling' post='1126270' date='Nov 22 2006, 05:15 PM']
I believe there is a passage from Isiah that refers to the fall of Lucifer, the King, that was later thought to be about Satan as well, does anyone know the verse? It refers to Lucifer as the 'morning star thrown from Heaven', I jst cant remeber...
[/quote]
Satan merely means "Adversary." I believe it's as often an appelation as a proper name. "We are Legion," so to speak.

[jwangkal]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1127040' date='Nov 24 2006, 08:56 PM']
God pours out His grace toward all, but will not force it. Since the angelic (and thus also the demonic) nature does not allow for change within the creature, it is impossible for them to be closed to grace at one "moment" and open to it at another. Therefore, they cannot receive grace and, accordingly, God's grace cannot change them. The grace has the power to turn hearts in itself, but it only works when we cooperate with it, in accordance with God's love, which allows us to be free.
[/quote]

Of course God's nature does not allow Him to force a creature to do His will.
According to your statement, does angelic nature only provide for a creature to change from Good to Bad and no reverse?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='JP3' post='1129685' date='Nov 28 2006, 10:12 AM']
Of course God's nature does not allow Him to force a creature to do His will.
According to your statement, does angelic nature only provide for a creature to change from Good to Bad and no reverse?
[/quote]
An angelic creature doesn't really change from good to bad or vice-versa. Angels are created good and remain intrinsically good even if they become demons. It is their will that turns bad...and that happened all at once immediately upon their creation, when they were presented with the choice between good and evil...so a demon never had good will and an angel never had evil will...they chose as soon as they were created.

[jwangkal]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1129724' date='Nov 28 2006, 07:25 PM']
An angelic creature doesn't really change from good to bad or vice-versa. Angels are created good and remain intrinsically good even if they become demons. It is their will that turns bad...and that happened all at once immediately upon their creation, when they were presented with the choice between good and evil...so a demon never had good will and an angel never had evil will...they chose as soon as they were created.
[/quote]

The angels had the chance to choose between good and evil when Lucifer wanted to be like God and convinced other rebelious angels to follow him. The principle of time applies here, meaning the events had a sequence of occurence. So all angels had a period of sanctifying grace. Only on choosing to be evil did the demons loose grace with God and thence became demons. I think angelic nature does allow for change of will from good to bad... and that's where i think this the question is: Do they have a possibility of change of will from Bad to Good?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='JP3' post='1129765' date='Nov 28 2006, 12:33 PM']
The angels had the chance to choose between good and evil when Lucifer wanted to be like God and convinced other rebelious angels to follow him. The principle of time applies here, meaning the events had a sequence of occurence. So all angels had a period of sanctifying grace. Only on choosing to be evil did the demons loose grace with God and thence became demons. I think angelic nature does allow for change of will from good to bad... and that's where i think this the question is: Do they have a possibility of change of will from Bad to Good?
[/quote]
Demons did not possess supernatural grace before the fall. Therefore, they did not lose it. While there was a sequence of events, it didn't happen in the same sort of time we're used to. The angelic nature does not allow for a change of will from good to bad or from bad to good. This is a doctrine of the faith.

Please read "Christian Faith and Demonology" from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.