Interesting Take On Sex Scandals In Evangelical Groups

[cmotherofpirl]

[url="http://www.religionandspirituality.com/christianity/view.php?StoryID=20061106-123856-2630r"]http://www.religionandspirituality.com/chr...06-123856-2630r[/url]

[God Conquers]

hmmm... I dunno.

Some of this article is very true... some is faintly anti-christian.

We can all fall. That is true. For sure.

We all need more understanding of God's mercy, and more reality when it comes to dealing with sin and concupisence.

[cmotherofpirl]

It was written by a christian.

[Anomaly]

[quote]Instead the church ought to advertise what it is best at: coming together to share our lives in community — to care for each other when we're sick, to pray for one another, to offer help when someone has a baby, to give food to the poor... What if someone said, "I'm struggling with sin," and the church said, "We can't promise you that you'll change, but we can offer you a place where you'll make friends and find meaningful work to do in spite of your struggles?"

When people say that Haggard should have been more honest with himself, I want to say that evangelical theology is guilty for his dishonesty. The promises are lies. They make a mockery of leaders who depend on the promises and find no relief. What else does a pastor do but lie when the practices he preaches don't work for him?

Christianity does not cure addiction. Christians are forgiven for sin. More importantly, Christianity is a pathway to community and caring in spite of sin. Honestly, a caring community is worth a lot in this postmodern fragmented world. Nothing to sneeze at!

If evangelicals started with the humble truth, they might not have so many sick people joining up in desperation hoping to find a magical cure for what they do in secret. In fact, the church might then become that sacred space where all are welcome, where honesty is valued and where some are helped, too. [/quote]

Very interesting points. One thing I have issue with, is that it seems to soft peddle the part about [b]continuing THE struggle [/b] against the sin.
Instead of accepting homosexual urges and giving in to them, it's accepting those failures as 'past-tense failures' in a continuing struggle to over-come them. If certain Bishops would have recognized this, the Cath Church would not have had the scandal. When a priest was turned in/caught in sexual abuse, sure, send him for treatment, but recognize that God, Grace, and the Psychology Field rarely provide instant cures, and put him in a place where he can continue to work on his struggle without the pitfalls of remaining around prey.

[cmotherofpirl]

The problem with instant conversion is that it usually isn't.

[mulls]

she's quite the cynic.

[Era Might]

[quote]The evangelical church needs to be honest and admit that prayer, accountability, Bible study, preaching from the pulpit and exorcising demons does not guarantee the end of sexual addiction or sexual sin for many people. What if the church said that much? What if evangelicals admitted that breaking bad sex habits is beyond the scope of its ability and is not a promise in Scripture? [/quote]
We can do all things in Christ who strengthens us. There's no guarantee that we can free ourselves of a disordered inclination, but we can persevere and live a holy live in spite of it, resisting its temptations.

The Church is a hospital for sinners, but there's a danger in writing off our sins as the inevitablities of a fallen nature. If Christ is the divine physician, then he can heal us, and must, because our salvation depends on our correspondence to grace.

[quote]It was he who created man in the beginning, and he left him in the power of his own inclination.

If you will, you can keep the commandments, and to act faithfully is a matter of your own choice.

He has placed before you fire and water: stretch out your hand for whichever you wish.

Before a man are life and death, and whichever he chooses will be given to him.

For great is the wisdom of the Lord; he is mighty in power and sees everything; his eyes are on those who fear him, and he knows every deed of man.

He has not commanded any one to be ungodly, and he has not given any one permission to sin.

--Sirach 15:14-20[/quote]
No, there isn't a "magic" cure. The cure is very simple and, yes, takes great effort from us: lose our will, and seek to serve God alone. Bible studies and fellowships are very important, but at the end of the day, it's up to us as individual persons to decide whether we want to sin or not. Haggard chose to sin. He lives to repent another day, and God will forgive him and welcome him back on the road to holiness.

[HS_Dad]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1118150' date='Nov 12 2006, 09:19 AM']
The problem with instant conversion is that it usually isn't.
[/quote]

Sounds kind of atheistic. We believe in a God who can do all things, don't we?

I have to admit this Catholic cynicism towards the power of the Holy Spirit towards
conversion, is a real stumbling block to me. Don't we believe in an omnipotent God?

Perhaps this is so rare in Catholicism it causes this cynicism. I have seen real lives changed
dramatically by God in my evangelical days.... I've seen good Catholic Christians, but not
many conversions in Catholicism. Oh well, all things in due time.

Edited November 12, 2006 by HS_Dad

[cmotherofpirl]

I have baptist, evangelical and fundie family so I have seen too many people do the altar call routine and be "saved Amen Amen", then go back sinning.

God can change lives as he did St Paul, but even he had to work at it: working out his salvation in fear and trembling...

[mulls]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1118150' date='Nov 12 2006, 10:19 AM']
The problem with instant conversion is that it usually isn't.
[/quote]

i'm actually beginning to agree with this more and more.

my conversion was indeed "instant," Saul-to-Paul like, and because of my experience and Paul's story, i thought all people who trusted in Christ would be the same. but it's so not true. i'm looking more and more into evangelistic 'techniques,' false conversions, and people looking for quick-fix, easy answers.

Edited November 12, 2006 by mulls

[Era Might]

Conversion is always an on-going process. Even St. Paul, whose conversion was probably the most dramatic in Christian history, spoke gravely about the need to remain rooted in Christ, lest you fall away:

[quote]Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it.

Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.

Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

--1Cor 9:24-27[/quote]

[quote]Perhaps this is so rare in Catholicism it causes this cynicism. I have seen real lives changed
dramatically by God in my evangelical days.... I've seen good Catholic Christians, but not
many conversions in Catholicism. Oh well, all things in due time.[/quote]
Not rare at all. Read the lives of the Saints, dramatic conversions are very common in Catholic history, from St. Francis (who came from a very rich family) to St. Ignatius (who was a soldier dreaming of worldly fame) to Blessed Bartolo Longo (who was a Satanic priest) to modern examples like Alex Jones (who was a Protestant minister and converted with his entire congregation).

I'm a testimony myself to the power of God to call someone for his own purposes. If it wasn't for God's grace, I would have had no inclination to become Catholic; I do not come from a religious family. But, I've been Catholic 5 years already, and that "honeymoon" when I first converted wore off a long time ago, and it's been a grind. But, the way of holiness is the way of the cross, and it's never easy until we go on to our eternal reward.

[God Conquers]

Conversion happens. I experience it often in many people I encounter.

Oh... and they're catholic.

But no conversion is perfect... even St. Paul talks about doing what he doesn't want to do and having great weaknesses.

We need to learn to overcome our sinful nature, and that takes time... on average about 80 years I think.

[jswranch]

[quote name='mulls' post='1118318' date='Nov 12 2006, 02:58 PM']
i'm actually beginning to agree with this more and more.

my conversion was indeed "instant," Saul-to-Paul like, and because of my experience and Paul's story, i thought all people who trusted in Christ would be the same. but it's so not true. i'm looking more and more into evangelistic 'techniques,' false conversions, and people looking for quick-fix, easy answers.
[/quote]

St. Paul still struggled after his conversion also.

Remember Mt 10:22

[Aloysius]

there is forgiveness and then there is indulgence. evangelical theology cuts out the indulgence assuming it has taken place with the forgiveness. this is a horrible assumption. forgiveness is easy to obtain; you sincerely ask God for forgiveness and He will always forgive you. but sin has damaged your soul, and something more must be done to heal that damage. it is the big hole in evangelical's theology that they don't continually struggle to heal it; even if that means long periods of guilt-repentence cycles. you must apply your will towards the process of being healed by God, before during and after you are forgiven for the sin.

[thessalonian]

I heard John MacArther bashing the Catholic Church regarding sex scandals. He even said that the press doesn't report much on it. What planet has he been living on for the last 15 years. I think it is good that the press finally reports some of their indiscretions as there are far more of them than meets the eye. One arctle by the baptists themselves says that 13% of them have committed adultery. Rarely do these stories come up or make the news.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1118304' date='Nov 12 2006, 04:47 PM']
I have baptist, evangelical and fundie family so I have seen too many people do the altar call routine and be "saved Amen Amen", then go back sinning.

God can change lives as he did St Paul, but even he had to work at it: working out his salvation in fear and trembling...
[/quote]When I was a Southern Baptist, there was cycle among congregants of "getting saved" by answering an altar call, "accepting Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior" (again), "backsliding" (again) and rededicating oneself to the Lord (again). Sometimes ppl were rebaptized during this process. I was dunked twice, a guy I know was dunked three times. Since we were Once Saved, Always Saved believers, this uncertainty about our salvation was very strange. "Believer's Assurance" was not reassuring. A good confession and absolution would have cured what ailed us.

==================================
Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!

[mulls]

[quote]When I was a Southern Baptist, there was cycle among congregants of "getting saved" by answering an altar call, "accepting Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior" (again), "backsliding" (again) and rededicating oneself to the Lord (again). Sometimes ppl were rebaptized during this process. I was dunked twice, a guy I know was dunked three times. Since we were Once Saved, Always Saved believers, this uncertainty about our salvation was very strange. "Believer's Assurance" was not reassuring. [/quote]


so basically, what you're saying is that I can use the same argument against you that you constantly use against ex-catholics: [i]"You didn't know your stuff and it's your own fault, it was your responsibility to figure out the truth even if you were not taught (catechized) properly, and the reason you left was because you wanted to find a place where you felt comfortable believing what you wanted to believe."[/i]

that's the gist of it, right? call you out for making excuses, for going through the motions, and making up your own mind to choose to believe what you wanted to and call it truth?

did it work? are you convicted?

now you should probably ask me which bible i read, why i believe it's inspired, where in the bible it says that the bible is the bible, where in the bible it says it's the final authority....

then you can ask me which denomination i'm a part of, and tell me how old it is, and who started it, and how it's completely different than the 33,000 other denominations who can't agree on what the bible says....

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1118836' date='Nov 13 2006, 11:36 AM']
One arctle by the baptists themselves says that 13% of them have committed adultery.
[/quote]

what does that prove? that 13% of the people who check the religious views box on the survey "Baptist" have commited adultery.

not singling you out thess, but i find that many on phatmass have an obsession with labels, i.e. denominations.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='mulls' post='1118972' date='Nov 13 2006, 03:46 PM']
so basically, what you're saying is that I can use the same argument against you that you constantly use against ex-catholics: [i]"You didn't know your stuff and it's your own fault, it was your responsibility to figure out the truth even if you were not taught (catechized) properly, and the reason you left was because you wanted to find a place where you felt comfortable believing what you wanted to believe."[/i]

that's the gist of it, right? call you out for making excuses, for going through the motions, and making up your own mind to choose to believe what you wanted to and call it truth?

did it work? are you convicted?

now you should probably ask me which bible i read, why i believe it's inspired, where in the bible it says that the bible is the bible, where in the bible it says it's the final authority....

then you can ask me which denomination i'm a part of, and tell me how old it is, and who started it, and how it's completely different than the 33,000 other denominations who can't agree on what the bible says....
what does that prove? that 13% of the people who check the religious views box on the survey "Baptist" have commited adultery.

not singling you out thess, but i find that many on phatmass have an obsession with labels, i.e. denominations.
[/quote]
mulls what did you think of the article?

[Katholikos]

[quote name='mulls' post='1118972' date='Nov 13 2006, 03:46 PM']
so basically, what you're saying is that I can use the same argument against you that you constantly use against ex-catholics: [i]"You didn't know your stuff and it's your own fault, it was your responsibility to figure out the truth even if you were not taught (catechized) properly, and the reason you left was because you wanted to find a place where you felt comfortable believing what you wanted to believe."[/i][/quote]Nope. I left because I [i][b]did [/b][/i] know my stuff. I grew up Baptist, but I found as a young adult that the doctrines of Sola Scriptura and Believer's Assurance (and others) couldn't stand the test of logic. I thought Christianity was based on the Bible, so I left not only Protestantism but Christianity. The only logical option was agnosticism. I didn't give Catholicism a single thought, so deep was my prejudice against it. I eventually drifted into atheism.

[quote]that's the gist of it, right? call you out for making excuses, for going through the motions, and making up your own mind to choose to believe what you wanted to and call it truth?[/quote]Nope. I just couldn't accept doctrines that [i]prima facie[/i] were illogical and untrue. I became a student of other religions -- Buddhism, Hinduism, tribal religions, etc. It was merely an academic interest. I knew nothing about the history of Christianity or the history of the Bible until years later.

[quote]did it work? are you convicted?[/quote]I convinced myself that there was no such thing as sin.

[quote]now you should probably ask me which bible i read, why i believe it's inspired, where in the bible it says that the bible is the bible, where in the bible it says it's the final authority....[/quote]Well, you're on the right track with the right questions. And there are others. St. Cyprian said something to the effect that you can't have God for a Father if you don't have the Church for a Mother. The Bible does not stand alone.

[quote]then you can ask me which denomination i'm a part of, and tell me how old it is, and who started it, and how it's completely different than the 33,000 other denominations who can't agree on what the bible says....[/quote]You got that right.

What did you think of the article Cmom posted?

Peace be with you, Mulls.
================================
Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!

[mulls]

I liked the article. I especially agree with the following:

[quote]The evangelical church needs to be honest and admit that prayer, accountability, Bible study, preaching from the pulpit and exorcising demons does not guarantee the end of sexual addiction or sexual sin for many people. What if the church said that much? What if evangelicals admitted that breaking bad sex habits is beyond the scope of its ability and is not a promise in Scripture?

Instead the church ought to advertise what it is best at: coming together to share our lives in community — to care for each other when we're sick, to pray for one another, to offer help when someone has a baby, to give food to the poor... What if someone said, "I'm struggling with sin," and the church said, "We can't promise you that you'll change, but we can offer you a place where you'll make friends and find meaningful work to do in spite of your struggles?"

When people say that Haggard should have been more honest with himself, I want to say that evangelical theology is guilty for his dishonesty. The promises are lies. They make a mockery of leaders who depend on the promises and find no relief. What else does a pastor do but lie when the practices he preaches don't work for him?

Christianity does not cure addiction. Christians are forgiven for sin. More importantly, Christianity is a pathway to community and caring in spite of sin. Honestly, a caring community is worth a lot in this postmodern fragmented world. Nothing to sneeze at!

If evangelicals started with the humble truth, they might not have so many sick people joining up in desperation hoping to find a magical cure for what they do in secret. In fact, the church might then become that sacred space where all are welcome, where honesty is valued and where some are helped, too.[/quote]


I do believe sin and addiction can be overcome, that the power of the Spirit can indeed break bondage. But I believe the attitude of the author is the correct one.

Amen to it.