Before We Are Baptized...

[Matty_boy]

I just found this in the Q & A about Catholicism but couldn't repond because it was closed.

We are not the "property of Satan" before we are baptized. We are fallen and born in a state of original sin, but if we die before baptism, Satan does not take us to hell, and we certainly do NOT go to limbo. We are God's property and are created inherently good with a fallen nature.

[Balthazor]

SO you are basically saying we end up in the cosmic "lost and found" box with a pair of broken sunglasses, two chapsticks and a torn coin purse?

Could you clarify....this is an interesting concept.

[Winchester]

All Torn Coin Purses Go to Heaven.

It's Disney.

[WillT]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1119766' date='Nov 14 2006, 01:08 PM']
All Torn Coin Purses Go to Heaven.

It's Disney.
[/quote]
Chapstick, however, is just a tool of Satan. Therefore it would be in Hell, not the lost and found.

[Aloysius]

it is an infallible Catholic teaching that those who die with original sin are incapable of entering heaven. We have hope that God may apply the effects of baptism to rid souls of their original sin if they die without baptism; but those who die and never receive the effects of baptism in any way do indeed descend into hell because of their original sin, their fallen nature.

but indeed, without baptism or its effects, fallen humanity is the property of satan: he won us by convincing us to disobey God in the Fall.

[Resurrexi]

[quote]
We are not the "property of Satan" before we are baptized. We are fallen and born in a state of original sin, but if we die before baptism, Satan does not take us to hell, and we certainly do NOT go to limbo. [/quote]

If you die without baptism of water, blood or desire/invincalbe ignorance, then yes you rot in hell forever. And we have the right to believe that unbaptised babies go to limbo, and it is a Domga that the souls of the just who died before the Ressurection went to Limbo until the harrowing of Hell.

[quote name='The Catechism of St. Pius X'] 1 Q. What are we taught in the Fifth Article: He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead?
A. The Fifth Article of the Creed teaches us that the Soul of Jesus Christ, on being separated from His Body, descended to the Limbo of the holy Fathers, and that on the third day it became united once more to His Body, never to be parted from it again.

2 Q. What is here meant by hell?
A. Hell here means the Limbo of the holy Fathers, that is, the place where the souls of the just were detained, in expectation of redemption through Jesus Christ.

3 Q. Why were not the souls of the Holy Fathers admitted into heaven before the death of Jesus Christ?
A. The souls of the holy Fathers were not admitted into heaven before the death of Jesus Christ, because heaven was closed by the sin of Adam, and it was but fitting that Jesus Christ, who reopened it by His death, should be the first to enter it. [/quote]

As to the original question:

[quote name='The Catechism of St. Pius X']
42 Q. How is it possible for original sin to be transmitted to all men?
A. Original sin is transmitted to all men because God, having conferred sanctifying grace and other supernatural gifts on the human race in Adam, on the condition that Adam should not disobey Him; and Adam having disobeyed, as head and father of the human race, rendered human nature rebellious against God. And hence, human nature is transmitted to all the descendants of Adam in a state of rebellion against God, and deprived of divine grace and other gifts. [/quote]

[RC_]

"Homer's soul is legally the property of Marge Simpson..."

[Balthazor]

I wonder if that would work.......Because if it can. Then I am sooo good!!!!

[93 Phillies]

I disagree with this concept. So you think people of other religions cannot go to Heaven?

[Katholikos]

[quote name='93 Phillies' post='1120179' date='Nov 14 2006, 08:29 PM']
I disagree with this concept. So you think people of other religions cannot go to Heaven?
[/quote]No. The only way to be SURE you're going to heaven is to be Catholic and faithfully follow the teachings of the Church founded by Christ for the salvation of the world. But others MAY go to heaven. See the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraphs 836 - 848.

[url="http://www.scborromeo.org/index2.htm"]http://www.scborromeo.org/index2.htm[/url]
click on "Catechism"

Edited November 15, 2006 by Katholikos

[Katholikos]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1120217' date='Nov 14 2006, 09:05 PM']
No. The only way to be SURE you're going to heaven is to be Catholic and faithfully follow the teachings of the Church founded by Christ for the salvation of the world. But others MAY go to heaven. See the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraphs 836 - 848.

[url="http://www.scborromeo.org/index2.htm"]http://www.scborromeo.org/index2.htm[/url]
click on "Catechism"[/quote]

Limbo is theological speculation, not doctrine.

CCC 1261 As regards children who have died without baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them.

==========================
Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!

[Matty_boy]

It is absolutely untrue that babies going to limbo is infallible church teaching.

CCC 1261 As regards children who have died without baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them.

God is merciful and as a priest once told me "We have no proof that anyone has ever died and gone to hell." That is not to say that there aren't people in hell, but the accusation that people who die without being baptized "rot in hell" is a scathing judgement that I am definitely not comfortable making, as should none of you.

Be merciful, just as (also) your Father is merciful. Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Give and gifts will be given to you; a good measure, packed together, shaken down, and overflowing, will be poured into your lap. [b]For the measure with which you measure will in return be measured out to you.[/b]"

~Luke 6:36-38

Edited November 15, 2006 by Matty_boy

[Aloysius]

which is why STM said we have the right to believe it.

personally, I do believe in limbo for those who die in original sin but not culpable for any actual mortal sin.

[XIX]

Limbo is sorta like the zeroth layer of Hell, isn't it?


(assuming, for the sake of argument, that it exists)

[Romans1513]

[quote name='XIX' post='1120322' date='Nov 14 2006, 10:46 PM']
Limbo is sorta like the zeroth layer of Hell, isn't it?
(assuming, for the sake of argument, that it exists)
[/quote]

"zeroth"?
I thought that limbo was just a step below Heaven.

And to Aloysius...
"it is an infallible Catholic teaching that those who die with original sin are incapable of entering heaven"
Do you know where I could find this? I'm confused. I was definitely not taught this, in fact I thought the CCC names baptism of desire (or does that get rid of original sin?) as a means to Heaven. Also, don't we acknowledge hope for the unbaptized, including those who have never heard of Jesus?

[CatholicCid]

I think the "those who die with original sin" does not include those who would be freed from original sin through baptism, baptism by blood, and baptism by desire.

Is it infallible? No idea.

[Resurrexi]

[quote]"it is an infallible Catholic teaching that those who die with original sin are incapable of entering heaven"[/quote]

The following are three inffallable quotes from the Popes and Oecumenical Councils, both of which are organs of Infallibility.

[quote name='Pope Eugene IV's Bull Cantate Domino' date=' AD 1441']The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire 'which was prepared for the devil and his angels' (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her... No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.[/quote]

[quote name='The Fourth General Council of the Lateran' date=' AD 1215']There is indeed one universal church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.[/quote]

[quote name='Pope Boniface VIII's Bull Unam Sanctam' date=' AD 1302']Now, therefore, we declare, say, determine and pronounce that for every human creature it is necessary for salvation to be subject to the authority of the Roman Pontiff.[/quote]

From the Catechism:

[quote name='The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X']12 Q. Why such anxiety to have infants receive Baptism?
A. There should be the greatest anxiety to have infants baptised because, on account of their tender age, they are exposed to many dangers of death, and cannot be saved without Baptism.
16 Q. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?
A. Baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation, for our Lord has expressly said: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."
17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?
A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.[/quote]

Edited November 15, 2006 by StThomasMore

[CatholicCid]

I think more of the Boniface's Bull should be looked at a little more...

This authority, however, (though it has been given to man and is exercised by man), is not human but rather divine, granted to Peter by a divine word and reaffirmed to him (Peter) and his successors by the One Whom Peter confessed, the Lord saying to Peter himself, 'Whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in Heaven' etc., [Mt 16:19]. [b]Therefore whoever resists this power thus ordained by God, resists the ordinance of God [Rom 13:2][/b], unless he invent like Manicheus two beginnings, which is false and judged by us heretical, since according to the testimony of Moses, it is not in the beginnings but in the beginning that God created heaven and earth [Gen 1:1].


Infact, Wikipedia says it better so I'm going to be lazy and quote from there (which quotes from the CCC lol)

[quote]
"Outside the Church there is no salvation" - How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
"Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it" (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, 14).
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation" (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, 16).
"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men" (Second Vatican Council, Ad Gentes, 1).
It is therefore in this sense that the Catholic Church interprets the following statements by Councils and Popes:

Fourth Lateran Council (1215): "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved."

Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam Sanctam (1302): "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

Pope Eugene IV, Bull Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."

Pope Pelagius II (578-590): "Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. ...Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. ...Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. ...[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church" (Denzinger 246-247)

Saint Gregory the Great (590-604), Moralia: "Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved."

Pope Innocent III (1198-1216): "With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved" (Denzinger 423).

Pope Leo XII (1823-1829), Encyclical Ubi Primum: "We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. ... For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'"

Pope Gregory XVI (1831-1846), Encyclical, Summo Jugiter: "It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved."

Pope Pius IX (1846-1878), "It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood" (Denzinger 1647).

Pope Leo XIII (1878-1903), Encyclical Annum Ingressi Sumus: "This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God's commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church."

idem, Encyclical Sapientiae Christianae:"He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God."

Pope Pius X (1903-1914), Encyclical Jucunda Sane: "It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation."

Pope Benedict XV (1914-1922), Encyclical Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum: "Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved."

Pope Pius XI (1922-1939), Encyclical Mortalium Animos: "The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. ... Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors."

Pope Pius XII (1939-1958), Allocution to the Gregorian University (17 October 1953): "By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth."

Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium, 14: "They could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it."
[/quote]

[Aloysius]

All who enter heaven must receive the effects of baptism in some way. the only way we know of without doubt is baptism-- the ordinary way. our hope for the unbaptized is a hope that there exists some extra-ordinary way by which they receive the effects of baptism. If one does not receive the effects of baptism in any way, they cannot enter heaven. It is thus either limbo or straight out hell for them.

Of course, it is certain that "limbo" exists, insofar as "limbo" means "edge", since we know certainly that there are different levels of hell, we know that there is an outside edge of the least punishment. I would even say by logic: there's no reason not to assume that the least-punished of hell are punished only by separation from God and not by any active pains of punishment. The question is whether the unbaptized who are not culpable for actual sin are sent to the edge of hell; which of course, barring some extra-ordinary means of God, they must be. And then, of course, is the question of the nature of the edge of hell, whether it is indeed solely the punishment of separation from God or if there is other punishment, or even perhaps less punihsment (perhaps they are not even totally separated from God).

it's all a question of what the nature of the edge of Hell (Limbo) is. because there is an edge of Hell (Limbo), that is certain.

[Matty_boy]

Just because the Pope said something doesn't mean it is infallible teaching of the Catholic Church. He must be speaking Ex Cathedra or "from the chair", and all of Catholicism must adhere to those teachings. None of the Popes have spoken Ex Cathedra about limbo.

Back to the main question. Wouldn't purgatory negate the necessity of limbo? Wouldn't God's mercy allow those who are not fit for hell to enter heaven? It seems like either a person chooses hell, then everyone else goes to heaven either immediately or after a time in purgatory. It's hard to imagine that some people can't even get there through purgatory, but God just puts them in limbo because there's no other way.

Furthermore, this business about people dying without baptism going to limbo or even hell is rediculous. I have friends who aren't baptized because their parents raised them athiest or agnostic. If my friend dies, it's not his choosing that he wasn't baptized. He'd never even seen a bible. Ignorance of salvific means does not ensure one's ticket to hell.

Hell is something that a person chooses. If they consciously reject God, even until death, they reject Heaven.