Before We Are Baptized...

[Aloysius]

The Universal Constant teaching of the Church is that original sin does indeed exclude a person from heaven. One who was not baptized in an ordinary way may be given the effects of baptism in some way known only to God-- but they must receive the effects of baptism in some way. original sin certainly keeps you out of heaven, however, otherwise Christ's sacrifice was unnecessary.

you're pretty arrogant to call it "ridiculous". hell is "chosen" in the sense that the state a person's soul is in when they die is the state they will be in for eternity-- if a soul has original sin then that soul will "choose" to be seperated from God; it's not your average ordinary temporal choice-- it's a pure act of the soul in the state it is in. if a soul is in the state of original sin then it flees from the presence of God. it doesn't get a second chance to re-think anything: it's state determines what it does.

it is an infallible teaching of the Church that unless one is freed from original sin one cannot enter heaven. that's at the center of the gospel message: not believing that makes you cease to be a Christian. God may grant a soul the effects of baptism in some way not known to us-- but the only way we know of is baptism and we have a sacred obligation to convert and baptize everyone otherwise we cannot be assured they have any chance of salvation.

you make heaven seem as if it's the default-- it is not. no human being merits heaven; it is something extra-ordinary. it is not just "don't do anything bad and you get into heaven" and it is not just "don't consciously reject heaven and you get it"... these ideas are unknown to the Christian mind.

the unbaptized have a chance, like I said, if God chooses to grant them the effects of baptism through some extra-ordinary means. this should never be presumed, it is to be hoped for.

all of this is merely the position of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as it is understood in continuity with the constant teaching of the Church. It is heretical to hold that original sin does not exclude one from heaven. It is heretical to hold that baptism is not necessary for salvation; and that whoever does not somehow receive the benefits of baptism in some way will not enter heaven. In the possibility that such a person does not receive the benefits of baptism-- a possibility which must be admitted because except for some extra-ordinary means God has never revealed to us this is what will happen-- they will descend into hell. perhaps the edge of hell (limbo). again, there is hope that through some extra-ordinary means they might receive the effets of baptism... but it is a hope and not something that ought to be presumed.

[Guest JeffCR07]

It should also be pointed out that St. Anselm of Canterbury's entire [i]Cur Deus Homo[/i] can be understood as a rejection of the "ransom theory" - the concept that somehow Satan "owned" us and Christ had to "buy us" from him. It is a theory that is both spiritually bankrupt and theologically impossible.

[Aloysius]

but it is an analogy which does indeed teach well about the state of our souls and their eternal fate prior to Christ's salvitic grace.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Matty_boy' post='1120545' date='Nov 15 2006, 08:50 AM']
Furthermore, this business about people dying without baptism going to limbo or even hell is rediculous. I have friends who aren't baptized because their parents raised them athiest or agnostic. If my friend dies, it's not his choosing that he wasn't baptized. He'd never even seen a bible. Ignorance of salvific means does not ensure one's ticket to hell.

Hell is something that a person chooses. If they consciously reject God, even until death, they reject Heaven.
[/quote]

Haven't posted on here in a while, but I've still been reading. This is a topic that I think many Catholics and Christians are wishy washy on in our time and it frightens me a bit.

The facts are these; Orginal Sin is [u]real[/u]. By the sin of Adam, it is God's completely [u]just punishment [/u] to send all of us to hell. As humans, and sons of Adam, we all deserve hell, and God would be justified in it. Like you say, Hell is something a person chooses, and through Adam we've all chosen Hell.

Christ came to save us from our sins, including and maybe even more importantly, our Orginal Sin. Through baptism we are washed away of all our sins including orginal sin. Why do you think we baptise a baby who has never 'committed' any sins? It is to save them from Orginal Sin. So many people today merely refer to baptism as a 'welcoming into the community' (which is accurate) but leave out the part about salvation.

To think that orginal sin has no real effects, then we could say anyone could 'earn' their way into heaven by being good which is heresy (pleagianism? sp someone?)

Limbo is not a doctrine, but the Church also does not grant a 'free pass' to those killed who weren't baptised. It doesn't work that way. The only thing we can do is rely on the mercy of God for those.

EDIT: I read Al's post a few above mine... His is much better written than mine, but we're pointing to the same thing... sorry to be redundant

Edited November 16, 2006 by rkwright