The New Converts - God Is Rearranging His Garden

[Katholikos]

God is rearranging His garden. The weak Catholics who leave are being replaced with strong, committed Catholics who understand and love the Church and the Truth of her teachings.

More than 600 Protestant clergy have left their ministry to become Catholic through only one organization -- the Coming Home Network. Four hundred more are also on the journey to Rome, as was announced at CHN's [i]Deep in Scripture [/i] conference last year. CHN receives an average of five contacts from Protestant clergy every week. CHN was started by a Protestant minister who made the journey himself and realized that a support system for clergy converts was needed. His organization provides moral support, answers to questions, and the help necessary for Protestant clergy to make the transition such as assistance in finding a job and financial help, if needed.

Many ministers find their way to Rome without CHN. An illustration is Alex Jones, a Pentecostal minister who entered the Church, bringing 54 of his congregation with him, plus his wife, at Easter, 2001. Jones is now a Catholic deacon. The book about his and his wife's conversion is titled [i]No Price Too High,[/i] published by Ignatius Press.

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Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!

[Katholikos]

bump. Doesn't anybody have anything to say about this? I thought surely the Protestants on this forum would have a comment or two. Can a thousand Protestant clergy be wrong about the Catholic Church?

[cathoholic_anonymous]

I don't have anything particular to say about this, but...an evangelical Protestant friend of mine is converting to Catholicism! : She isn't a member of the Protestant clergy, but I still think her conversion is pretty special.

[N/A Gone]

I am an evangelical theologian who converted...

[mulls]

[quote]God is rearranging His garden. The weak Catholics who leave are being replaced with strong, committed Catholics who understand and love the Church and the Truth of her teachings.[/quote]


replace the word "Catholics" with "Evangelicals" and the statement would be equally valid. not all that interesting if you ask me.

[mulls]

[quote]Can a thousand Protestant clergy be wrong about the Catholic Church?[/quote]

we're wrong about everything else in your eyes, why would this be any different?

[N/A Gone]

mulls..

give me some stats-examples of a catholic that was strong in his catholic faith yet converted to evangelicalism. It just does not happen, where as there are numerous "strong" evangelicals who "grow into" or "reconcile" themselves to catholicism.

A protestant can mature into a catholic, catholicism being the fullfillment of many of the systematics evangelicals believe in.. A catholic can not mature into a protestant.

[mulls]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1124448' date='Nov 20 2006, 03:50 PM']
mulls..

give me some stats-examples of a catholic that was strong in his catholic faith yet converted to evangelicalism. It just does not happen, where as there are numerous "strong" evangelicals who "grow into" or "reconcile" themselves to catholicism.

A protestant can mature into a catholic, catholicism being the fullfillment of many of the systematics evangelicals believe in.. A catholic can not mature into a protestant.
[/quote]


ok, even though that's a completely subjective request....

i have two friends on campus who started coming out to the weekly meeting of our ministry. they loved it and got highly involved. they began reading the bible on their own. one of them knew i was ex-catholic, and she always talked about wanting to get together with me and discuss catholicism. i told her i was available, but never pressed the issue. in fact, i don't think anyone did. after a few months, she stopped being catholic. on her own, through bible study and prayer.

same story with the other guy.

want me to find you some ex-priest stories?

even though i already forsee the response.....

"The Catholics who converted were really cafeteria Catholics. They weren't faithful to the magisterium, properly catechized, regular attendees of confession, they had mortal sin on their soul, blah blah etc etc., and they chose to leave the Church to suit their own shallow needs."

"But the Protestants who turn Catholic, well THEY were faithful evangelicals through and through! Can't find any holes in their stories! It was all God!"


Right?

[jswranch]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1122528' date='Nov 17 2006, 02:24 PM']
God is rearranging His garden. The weak Catholics who leave are being replaced with strong, committed Catholics who understand and love the Church and the Truth of her teachings.
[/quote]

Reporting for duty! : Will share my testimony as requested.

Edited November 20, 2006 by jswranch

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]i have two friends on campus who started coming out to the weekly meeting of our ministry. they loved it and got highly involved. they began reading the bible on their own. one of them knew i was ex-catholic, and she always talked about wanting to get together with me and discuss catholicism. i told her i was available, but never pressed the issue. in fact, i don't think anyone did. after a few months, she stopped being catholic. on her own, through bible study and prayer.[/quote]

You have proved Revprodji's point. You say that one of your Catholic friends 'stopped being Catholic on her own, through Bible study and prayer', but a few lines earlier you reveal that she wasn't all that Catholic to start with. [b]They began reading the Bible on their own.[/b]

Why did your friends only begin reading the Bible so recently if they really were committed Catholics? Committed Catholics read the Bible on a regular basis, and it is committed Catholics whom we're discussing. Not nominal ones.

Edited November 20, 2006 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[jswranch]

[quote]"The Catholics who converted were really cafeteria Catholics. They weren't faithful to the magisterium, properly catechized, regular attendees of confession, they had mortal sin on their soul, blah blah etc etc., and they chose to leave the Church to suit their own shallow needs."[/quote]

Correct me if I am wrong but were you not one of these in a number of ways?? Did you not say you were...
-not practicing your faith

-you were living a very sinful life

-didn't have a spritual director

-had stopped going to daily mass

... all before you got 'born again'?

Please find me a Catholic who:
1. Has a deep prayer life
2. Not living in a mortal sin
3. Kept up with daily scripture readings
4. Believed and celibrated all Catholic doctrines.
5. Daily walked with Christ.
6. Not scandalized by sinful Catholics.

...and then becomes Protestant without first stopping to fulfill a number of these. All the ex-Catholics on this phorum seem to fit your description. You and all the rest (exception jasJis #6) became Protestant after first letting themselves drift away from the faith.

[quote name='mulls' post='1124451' date='Nov 20 2006, 01:59 PM']"But the Protestants who turn Catholic, well THEY were faithful evangelicals through and through! Can't find any holes in their stories! It was all God!"
Right?
[/quote]

Yes, you have a point. Some of the lousy Evangelicals who become Catholic can make lousy Catholics too. The point of rev's post is on Protestant Pastors who spent years leading Catholics out of the church are now heading back in. We have one in our parish.

[mulls]

thanks for proving my point folks.

[jswranch]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1124480' date='Nov 20 2006, 02:42 PM'][b]They began reading the Bible on their own.[/b][/quote]
That is how I became Catholic. I read my way in (it certainly was not the Christian witness of Catholics).

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1124480' date='Nov 20 2006, 02:42 PM']Committed Catholics read the Bible on a regular basis, and it is committed Catholics whom we're discussing. Not nominal ones.[/quote]

The Catholic Church professes: Ignorance of Scripture is ignorace of Christ. We even offer indulgences for reading scripture. I just got chewed out by Fr. William Casey for not spending enough time in scripture and letting God minister to me. I also got chidded for not leading my family in devotions as much as I should either.

I really do not know how Catholics thought they could be 'good Catholics' without reading scripture if possible.

Edited November 20, 2006 by jswranch

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='mulls' post='1124494' date='Nov 20 2006, 04:00 PM']
thanks for proving my point folks.
[/quote]


sweet...a pointless point with no argument but just general cockiness. Reminds me that I need to walk the dog.

JSWranch and myself are both protestants that have reconciled ourselves to catholicism. I dont know his story well, but mine has been well documented on these boards. I can think of numerous authors that were protestants with a strong protestant faith but it WASNT enough. They matured into catholicism. True conversion language is misleading, for if one has a strong protestant faith they will find it purified and fullfilled in catholicism.

[jswranch]

[quote name='mulls' post='1124494' date='Nov 20 2006, 03:00 PM']
thanks for proving my point folks.
[/quote]
Which one: the (a) Catholics leave the church once they read the bible myth or (b) not all Prots who become Catholic are the stellar Protestants?

[mulls]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1124507' date='Nov 20 2006, 05:12 PM']
sweet...a pointless point with no argument but just general cockiness. Reminds me that I need to walk the dog.
[/quote]


nope, i just knew exactly the response i would get. any testimony i give would have holes in it in your eyes. i'm working from behind the 8-ball, and i wanted to point it out.

i said:

[quote]even though i already forsee the response.....

"The Catholics who converted were really cafeteria Catholics. They weren't faithful to the magisterium, properly catechized, regular attendees of confession, they had mortal sin on their soul, blah blah etc etc., and they chose to leave the Church to suit their own shallow needs."[/quote]

and it was proven with:

[quote]Please find me a Catholic who:
1. Has a deep prayer life
2. Not living in a mortal sin
3. Kept up with daily scripture readings
4. Believed and celibrated all Catholic doctrines.
5. Daily walked with Christ.
6. Not scandalized by sinful Catholics.[/quote]

and:

[quote]Why did your friends only begin reading the Bible so recently if they really were committed Catholics? Committed Catholics read the Bible on a regular basis, and it is committed Catholics whom we're discussing. Not nominal ones[/quote]


i don't know the extent of my friends' previous Catholicity. by "reading the bible on their own" maybe i should have clarified....they were seeking out truth for the first time using the bible, instead of just using it to justify what they already believed in.

but it seems, one must past a test to see if a person was "Catholic enough" by subjective standards for their conversion to be counted authentic. face it, if the Pope himself converted, you still wouldn't give it credence.

and what about those aforementioned nominal Catholics that we're not talking about? no love for them at all? just let 'em turn protestant because we didn't want 'em anyways?

[quote name='jswranch' post='1124512' date='Nov 20 2006, 05:13 PM']
Which one: the (a) Catholics leave the church once they read the bible myth or (b) not all Prots who become Catholic are the stellar Protestants?
[/quote]

(c.) any Catholic turned Prot wasn't really Catholic enough to begin with....they were weak, they have holes in their faith, etc etc.


i didn't claim as a generality either of the two you mentioned

Edited November 20, 2006 by mulls

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='mulls' post='1124519' date='Nov 20 2006, 05:21 PM']i don't know the extent of my friends' previous Catholicity. by "reading the bible on their own" maybe i should have clarified....they were seeking out truth for the first time using the bible, instead of just using it to justify what they already believed in.[/quote]This is a strange comment. Of the protestant Bible studies that I have attended, a number of them were not-to-subtle in being designed to indoctrinate the attendees into the pecular beliefs of the particular church running the show. Put a few verses together and you can prove almost anything is "Biblical." For Catholics, Holy Scriptures are much more than mere apologetic materials; which seems to be how you portray our use of them.

[quote name='mulls' post='1124519' date='Nov 20 2006, 05:21 PM']but it seems, one must past a test to see if a person was "Catholic enough" by subjective standards for their conversion to be counted authentic. face it, if the Pope himself converted, you still wouldn't give it credence.[/quote]Let's turn the question around. If a Muslim apologist used the Holy Bible to convert a protestant into a Muslim (i.e. with selective quotes), what would it take for you to count the conversion as "authentic"? I hope that nothing would make you believe that leaving Christianity could be "authentic."

We believe that the Catholic Faith is consistent with the Gospel message given to the world 2000 years ago. To the extent that they differ from the Catholic Faith, Protestant (not to mention non-Christian) teachings are in error. I don't really understand how a conversion away from Truth should be described as "authentic".

[quote name='mulls' post='1124519' date='Nov 20 2006, 05:21 PM']and what about those aforementioned nominal Catholics that we're not talking about? no love for them at all? just let 'em turn protestant because we didn't want 'em anyways?[/quote]This sounds like a strawman argurment. Wouldn't you agree?

[mulls]

[quote]This is a strange comment. Of the protestant Bible studies that I have attended, a number of them were not-to-subtle in being designed to indoctrinate the attendees into the pecular beliefs of the particular church running the show. Put a few verses together and you can prove almost anything is "Biblical." For Catholics, Holy Scriptures are much more than mere apologetic materials; which seems to be how you portray our use of them.[/quote]

How I use them? You mean me, personally? Maybe at first, but not anymore. Many people do make this mistake. I have a deeper appreciation for the bible as a whole, as a devotional text before anything else.

[quote]Let's turn the question around. If a Muslim apologist used the Holy Bible to convert a protestant into a Muslim (i.e. with selective quotes), what would it take for you to count the conversion as "authentic"? I hope that nothing would make you believe that leaving Christianity could be "authentic." [/quote]

Please clarify, as I will do here.....by authentic I mean genuine, real. Without getting into the eternal security debate, I think people genuinely can leave Christianity. That's what I mean by authentic. Doesn't mean it's justifiable.

[quote]We believe that the Catholic Faith is consistent with the Gospel message given to the world 2000 years ago. To the extent that they differ from the Catholic Faith, Protestant (not to mention non-Christian) teachings are in error. I don't really understand how a conversion away from Truth should be described as "authentic".[/quote]

Again, I'm talking genuiness, realness, not what is or isn't justified. A person can be sincere and wrong, right?

[quote]This sounds like a strawman argurment. Wouldn't you agree?[/quote]

I'm not constructing an argument out of that. It's a genuine question. I care about people. What about those "weak" Catholics? Just cut 'em loose?

[jswranch]

[quote]A person can be sincere and wrong, right?[/quote]

Correct.

[quote]I'm not constructing an argument out of that. It's a genuine question. I care about people. What about those "weak" Catholics? Just cut 'em loose?[/quote] Honestly, I am guilty of a lack of charity in my heart for such folks. I suppose the hostility comes from the 'lukewarmness' of their faith. Pray for me. I think the attitude I/we should have is one of concern and teaching. I recommend Wed night teaching and music/art meetings. Teaching (catechism) from the pulpit would be nice too.

Edited November 20, 2006 by jswranch

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]I'm not constructing an argument out of that. It's a genuine question. I care about people. What about those "weak" Catholics? Just cut 'em loose?[/quote]

I am a weak Catholic. Not weak in terms of my theology (I am quite theologically knowledgeable for my age) but weak in terms of spirituality...just as we all are. For this reason, I have compassion on lukewarm Catholics who don't know much about their faith, as learning theology is easy and enjoyable. It would be lazy of me if I didn't pass on what I have learned in that arena. In return, the 'lapsed' Catholics whom I have talked to at discussion groups and the like have often enriched my spirituality in surprising ways that I did not expect.