The New Converts - God Is Rearranging His Garden

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='mulls' post='1124551' date='Nov 20 2006, 05:54 PM']How I use them? You mean me, personally? Maybe at first, but not anymore. Many people do make this mistake. I have a deeper appreciation for the bible as a whole, as a devotional text before anything else.[/quote]I'm sorry for the confusion--I think my words weren't clear. I meant that I disagreed with your judgment that Catholics only use Holy Scriptures as an apologetic tool, "using it to justify what they already believed in." I don't think it's fair to paint Catholics in this way, as if we are not "seeking Truth."

Catholics aren't really taught (in Church or school/CCD) with apologetics in mind. When I was growing up, we didn't have teachers/priests who focused on responding to Protestantant missionaries. We were just focused on the Gospel message. Maybe that's why Catholics are such easy targets for Protestants who do define and propogate their religion based on the distinctions from Catholicism. For example, you don't see a lot of Trinitarian theology (a quintessential Christian belief) from the pulpits of Protestant churches or in tracts targeting Catholics.

[quote name='mulls' post='1124551' date='Nov 20 2006, 05:54 PM']Please clarify, as I will do here.....by authentic I mean genuine, real. Without getting into the eternal security debate, I think people genuinely can leave Christianity. That's what I mean by authentic. Doesn't mean it's justifiable.[/quote]For example, let us say a member of New Life Church was alienated by the scandal of Ted Haggard, and decided to become a Univeralist. Would this be an "authentic" or "genuine" conversion? I guess I don't know how to apply these terms in a meaningful way. Leaving Truth behind for a religion which teaches less Truth and more error seems to be a tragedy, no matter what the circumstance. Is it any less tragic when we can soften it with words like "authentic" or "genuine"? It reminds me of the same logic used by those Christians who advocate divorce and re-marriage (e.g. justifying a second/third/fourth marriage because it made the person "happier"), ignoring Our Lord's own teachings. I hope that makes sense.

[quote name='mulls' post='1124551' date='Nov 20 2006, 05:54 PM']Again, I'm talking genuiness, realness, not what is or isn't justified. A person can be sincere and wrong, right?[/quote]True: someone can be sincere and wrong.

In the case of interdenominational conversions, these ex-Protestant pastors were sincere and right. In many cases, it was their anti-Catholic prejudices that were wrong. For many, they really didn't want to become Catholics, despite finding the historical and theological Truth of the Church's teachings. This isn't just some propoganda that the Coming Home Network is putting out. In my own parish Church, the converts into the Catholic Faith share a number of similarities with the pastor-converts. This includes: a love for Truth, a personal investigation of Christianity's roots, and often a prejudice against the Catholic Faith.

[quote name='mulls' post='1124551' date='Nov 20 2006, 05:54 PM']I'm not constructing an argument out of that. It's a genuine question. I care about people. What about those "weak" Catholics? Just cut 'em loose?[/quote]To "cut'em loose" would be an act of despair, and a sin against the virtue of Hope. Our Lord cares about all people. Beyond "weak Catholics", He even loves those who killed Him on the Cross, and those who blaspheme Him today.

We live in a time of great sinners and great saints. We're fighting against a militantly secular culture that hasn't left the Christian population untouched.

My answer is: I pray that Our Lord would allow me the peace in knowing that I may not be able to change the world; but I can have an impact on those with whom I come into contact. If God can make me an instrument of His grace to bring others (luke-warm Catholics, on-fire Protestants, non-Christians, or whoever) closer to Him, then that is a great blessing.

[Anomaly]

Forget about it, mulls. They wouldn't admit to reality even if it hits them in the face. Their relationship with the Catholic Church IS their relationship with Jesus. They don't even know what the Catholic Church itself teaches about Salvific Grace.

It leads right back to your earlier question, 'are you better off being a lax member of the Catholic Church or an energized Christian of another denomination. You didn't get thoughtful, non-combative answers then, nor will you now.

You may grow in your relationship with God through grace and may want to become a Catholic to avail yourself of additional graces, but Catholics will make it a self-defeating proposition.

Cut bait.

[mulls]

Hey you can't say i don't try though, right?

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='mulls' post='1124715' date='Nov 20 2006, 08:44 PM']
Hey you can't say i don't try though, right?[/quote]Are you saying that I've been too combative for you?

[mulls]

no, not you personally.

there's just a general tone around here that is pretty much impossible to penetrate.

concerning this thread, it's "the Catholics that we lose to Protestantism are the weak ones which we didn't want anyways, but the Protestants to come home to the Catholic church are the well-read, well-studied, and it's proof that we're right."

[HS_Dad]

[quote name='mulls' post='1124807' date='Nov 20 2006, 10:27 PM']

there's just a general tone around here that is pretty much impossible to penetrate.

concerning this thread, it's "the Catholics that we lose to Protestantism are the weak ones which we didn't want anyways, but the Protestants to come home to the Catholic church are the well-read, well-studied, and it's proof that we're right."
[/quote]

I think people with that attitude imagine the "Catholics that we lose to Protestantism" are all becoming Episcopalians
who are actively practicing non-biblical lifestyles and not the reality of generally moving to strongly Orthodox Evangelical and Pentecostal Churches.... Anyways, I believe Christ wants us all to be one in Him gathered together around the throne.... So, the write-off mentality shoudl be right out!

[Katholikos]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1124708' date='Nov 20 2006, 08:26 PM']
Forget about it, mulls. They wouldn't admit to reality even if it hits them in the face. Their relationship with the Catholic Church IS their relationship with Jesus.[/quote]The Church cannot be separated from Jesus, nor can Jesus be separated from the Church. He is the head, and the Church is His very body. On the road to Damascus, He said to Saul/Paul, who was persecuitng the Church, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting ME?" Christ weeps when anyone leaves the Church He founded for the salvation of the world. It is His will for all of us to be members of His Church and thus receive all the gifts He left us to help us get to heaven. "He who hears you (the leaders of His Church) hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me . . ."Lk 10:16.

[quote]They don't even know what the Catholic Church itself teaches about Salvific Grace.[/quote]The apostolic teaching of "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus" is still operative. Everyone who is saved is saved through the Catholic Church, whether they know it or not. The Church teaches that those outside her corporate body MAY be saved. PERHAPS. Those who leave are in a much more precarious position than those who are ignorant of the Church's teaching.

"Hence, they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it." CCC 846

[quote]It leads right back to your earlier question, 'are you better off being a lax member of the Catholic Church or an energized Christian of another denomination. You didn't get thoughtful, non-combative answers then, nor will you now.[/quote]Encouraging another in apostasy is serious business. I'm concerned about both of you, praying for you.

[quote]You may grow in your relationship with God through grace and may want to become a Catholic to avail yourself of additional graces, but Catholics will make it a self-defeating proposition.[/quote]"When you stand to pray, forgive anyone against whom you have a grievance, so that you heavenly Father may, in turn, forgive you..." Mark 11:26 NAB.

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Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!

[N/A Gone]

niiiice

[Thy Geekdom Come]

I just wanna say that I found out that the RCIA guidelines, with reference to those who come into full communion after having already been baptized, forbids calling them "converts."

Not judging the post or anything...just found that interesting and wanted to share.

[Veritas]

+

Intersting. I became a Catholic from Evangelicalism after I realized (Holy Spirit, Providence) that Catholicism is more Biblical than Biblical Fundamentalism! -That was it for me I loved being a "non-denominational" Evangelical Christian, but I LOVE being a 100% sold-out for Christ and His Church Catholic!

I can't wait till more Evangelicals become Catholics... they're great at a lot of things and bring a beautiful passion to the faith! Come-on home y'all -Jesus is waiting and welcoming!

Edited November 21, 2006 by Veritas

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1124918' date='Nov 21 2006, 01:14 AM']
I just wanna say that I found out that the RCIA guidelines, with reference to those who come into full communion after having already been baptized, forbids calling them "converts."

Not judging the post or anything...just found that interesting and wanted to share.
[/quote]
Right... but English doesn't really give us any good alternatives-- reconcilers? The reconciled? full-communioners? Former catecumens?

"Converts," while not technically correct is sure a lot easier.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1124988' date='Nov 21 2006, 09:13 AM']
Right... but English doesn't really give us any good alternatives-- reconcilers? The reconciled? full-communioners? Former catecumens?

"Converts," while not technically correct is sure a lot easier.
[/quote]
I know and I agree...I actually started a long discussion on this with my RCIA teacher (not that I'm in RCIA, but that I'm learning the catechetics behind RCIA). I think it's okay colloquially, but not in a catechetical setting. I just thought it was interesting.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

How about 'revert'? The Catechism states that we're all born to know God. We were fashioned by Him and for Him. So when you convert to Catholicism you are really just entering into your true element, so it seems to me.

[Era Might]

mulls,

I understand what you're saying. Honestly, I think Catholics WANT to excuse those who leave the Church. We want to believe that they didn't know the splendor of truth here, that they never really grasped it, that they are seeking in shadows for what is concrete only in the Catholic Church. The alternative is that they left knowing full well what the Catholic Church is, and they will have to face Our Lord in judgement with that knowledge.

I think it is often the case that those who leave the Church leave for straw men and precarious reasoning; not only for Protestantism, but for Eastern Orthodoxy and even non-Christian religions. Whether it is the case in any specific circumstance, we can't generalize. But Catholics want to find a reason to excuse someone for ignorance, because we want to leave a charitable hope open for their salvation, and not assume that they left knowing in their heart of hearts what the Church teaches, and knowing that it is true.

Most prominent converts from Protestantism are very respecting and appreciative of their former heritage; can the same be said of Catholic converts to Protestantism? These converts often despise Catholicism, and display a profound ignorance of what the Church teaches; accusations that Catholics worship Mary and statues and that we believe we earn our way into Heaven, for example, are usually based on superficial proof-texting, and the accusations don't correspond to the reality of Catholic theology. Any Catholic who knows anything about their faith knows that the idea that we worship anyone or anything but God is absurd, which is why we laugh the accusation off; and yet the accusations persist from former Catholics. Either they are willfully misrepresenting what the Church teaches, or they were never very knowledgeble about Catholicism to begin with (and possibly they have just been led astray by others who don't know the first thing about Catholicism). Which is the more charitable intepretation?

[jswranch]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1124708' date='Nov 20 2006, 06:26 PM'] They don't even know what the Catholic Church itself teaches about Salvific Grace.
[/quote]
Try me. Having become Catholic one year ago yesterday, I have studdied the different forms of grace. If you want to give me a quiz.... LETS GIT IT ON!! The grace doctrines are beautiful.

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1124708' date='Nov 20 2006, 06:26 PM'] Their relationship with the Catholic Church IS their relationship with Jesus.[/quote]
Christ is in a one flesh union with his bride. The two have become one. It is a covenant, not a contract.

Wife: Do you love me?
Husband: Do I love you??? I am you!!

[N/A Gone]

Era...that was great.

[123]

[quote]More than 600 Protestant clergy have left their ministry to become Catholic through only one organization -- the Coming Home Network. Four hundred more are also on the journey to Rome, as was announced at CHN's Deep in Scripture conference last year.[/quote]

Praise the Lord! Indeed the Lord is re-arranging his garden!

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1124918' date='Nov 21 2006, 01:14 AM']
I just wanna say that I found out that the RCIA guidelines, with reference to those who come into full communion after having already been baptized, forbids calling them "converts."

Not judging the post or anything...just found that interesting and wanted to share.
[/quote]


I cant say Hybrid, or convert? Does that mean I cant say "converted" I have used the term reconcilled, or revert since I was catholic as a child..but c'mon

[Katholikos]

Have any of you converts (JSWranch, Revprodji, et al.) written your conversion story? I wanna read 'em! Are they posted anywhere?

The Coming Home Network (CHN) website has a collection of great conversion stories (with one exception). You could offer your story to CHN and maybe be of help to others on the journey home.

You can read my story at CHN if you're so inclined. Go to [url="http://www.chnetwork.org"]http://www.chnetwork.org[/url]. At the home page, click on "Conversion Stories," then scroll down to my name: Jay Damien.

I love conversion stories! If any of you have encountered James White (perhaps the best anti-Catholic Protestant apologist in the U.S.), his sister's conversion story is at CHN also. Look for Patty Bonds.

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Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!

[homeschoolmom]

Conversion stories are well-hidden... you can find them here:

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=10382"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=10382[/url]