EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 Not everyone who claims to be Catholic is truly a Catholic in the same way that you probably know of unfaithful Protestants. The Catholic Church doesn't consist of unbelievers and believers, because unbelievers aren't really Catholics at heart. It doesn't make them horrible people or mean that they will be sent to hell, they just don't think religion is important, but there is always the possibility that they will reconvert.
hyperdulia again Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 i dunno who locked the "history" thread, but it wasn't me.
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 Those crazy Militants... I didn't know they had so much power.
Circle_Master Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 Not everyone who claims to be Catholic is truly a Catholic in the same way that you probably know of unfaithful Protestants. The Catholic Church doesn't consist of unbelievers and believers, because unbelievers aren't really Catholics at heart. It doesn't make them horrible people or mean that they will be sent to hell, they just don't think religion is important, but there is always the possibility that they will reconvert. I'm a bit confused. So being a member of the Catholic Church doesn't mean you actually do belong to it? You are saying not all those in the Catholic Church are saved. Just like in our protestant churches we believe there are many unbelievers who attend for comfort, or because it is what is expected of them. If you agree, then- How can you still call your church an institution? All saved people belong to the church in Scripture, and nobody who is unsaved belongs to it. Acts 2:47, 41 - and also Church members are always referred to as 'Sons of God'
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 The unbelievers aren't actually in the Church. They are like Protestants who use the name Catholic. Not everyone who attends a Mass is truly a Catholic. You must believe in all Catholicisms's doctrines to be a real Catholic. So no, the Church doesn't have any unbelievers. All this twisty language is hurting my head. I hope we can finally achieve communication on this one... Sorry if I have been hard to understand.
Circle_Master Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 (edited) So what is the church? Is it all believers who truly believe or Is it all members of an institution on earth. note: if you say the first one you are protestant. if you say the second you are Roman Catholic. (correct me if i'm wrong though, this is what people have been presenting here) Edited January 17, 2004 by Circle_Master
Pio Nono Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 JMJ 1/16 - First Friday I think it's important to remember a couple of things. First, we as members of the Mystical Body of Christ are church - a group of faithful believers. However (Also?), we are not THE Church; that title belongs to the teaching Magesterium of the faithful under the guidance of the Holy Ghost. The idea that we are THE Church did not come along until Martin Luther's time in 1542.
Circle_Master Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 so you agree in a universal invisible body as the church? That is interesting indeed. So why do you define 'THE Church' to be a title, and not actually speaking of the church of believers?
jrndveritatis Posted January 17, 2004 Author Posted January 17, 2004 In regards to Circle's question about whether the Church is all members of an institution on earth or all believers who truly believe, what is the Catholic teaching on this? I, as a Catholic, would like to know. Here is my personal take. It seems to me that even those who just go through the motions are in fact Catholics and members of the Church by virtue of their baptism. Of course they may not be living up to the Church's teachings and therefore are not "Catholic" in the full sense of the word. But they are part of the Church in my opinion. Also, those who are not Catholic but who are doing what they sincerely believe is morally right, are united in a certain way to the Church. So I guess you could say they are oriented towards the Church and members, although not in the full sacramental way. In summary it seems like the Church is both all members of an institution on earth AND all believers who truly do what they believe is right. So, am I missing something? I want to know the teaching on this so I am not inadvertently holding something contrary to it.
phatcatholic Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 (edited) also, circle, u need to know that having a particular union w/ the Catholic Church is different from being Catholic. every religion has a certain element of truth (pham, correct me if i'm wrong) and so are united to the Church in some way, albeit an imperfect, incomplete union. this is different from being Catholic, which is a person who was baptized "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" into the Catholic Church. it sounds to me that the people u are talking w/ are not actually Catholics, just people who walk into a Catholic Church every now and then so they can fill better about their mortality. does this help? let us know...........pax christi, phatcatholic Edited January 17, 2004 by phatcatholic
Pio Nono Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 JMJ 1/17 - Our Lady's Saturday Circle, I don't mean to join in the crowd and gang up on you, so I'm sorry if it sounds like I am. I think it's important to remember a couple of things. First, we as members of the Mystical Body of Christ are church - a group of faithful believers. However (Also?), we are not THE Church; that title belongs to the teaching Magesterium of the faithful under the guidance of the Holy Ghost. The idea that we are THE Church did not come along until Martin Luther's time in 1542. That's what I wrote. so you agree in a universal invisible body as the church? That is interesting indeed. And that's your response to it (or what is needed for my purposes here). I just want to clarify that I did not say that "a group of faithful believers" is the Church, but are simply church (with a little "c"). THE Church (capital "C") is the holy Magesterium of God. The particular article ("the") here is important because as church, we join in community to offer praise and worship to almighty God. However, since we are not the Church, we cannot set doctrines for ourselves, among other things. I hope this clarifies where I'm coming from. Pax et bonum, frater (peace and good things, brother).
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 Thanks friends. Do you see where we come from now Circle?
Circle_Master Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 I'm not sure how you make a distinction between 'church' and 'THE Church'. In the greek no such distinction can ever be made, so you would have to say that sometimes 'ekklesia' means an official 'THE Church' and sometimes it means all faithful believers. correct?
Pio Nono Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 JMJ 1/16 - Our Lady's Saturday Let's talk about Greek for a moment. New Testament (koine) Greek does use the word "ekklesia" interchangeably to mean "church" and "The Church". You might say that the double-use and implied double-meaning is tricky and iffy; however, it is the truth. The Greek language (in its koine form) has no articles like we do in English (a, an and the). These don't exist, so they must be thrown into a translation. Where it is thrown in and where it isn't is a matter of the context of the ancient text in question. Latin works the same way, and I can't write phonetic Greek, so we'll use it as an example. Deus bonus est. (God is good.) AND Deus bonus est. (God is the (philosophical) Good.) You see how this can work? That's why we must take it within context. Cicero would depend on the second usage, while religious worshippers would depend on the first. Greek works in exactly the same way, and we cannot change ancient Greek ('cause it's already dead). The way that where these articles are thrown in is decided by the teaching office of the Holy Church (since She authentically interprets Holy Scripture). I hope this helps to clarify things.
Circle_Master Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 I agree 100% on your discourse on greek right there. So when in context it says that Christ will wed the church in Ephesians, I automatically believe He will marry all those who are faithful to Him when He returns. Correct? Not an institution.
NewReformation Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 JMJ 1/16 - Our Lady's Saturday Let's talk about Greek for a moment. New Testament (koine) Greek does use the word "ekklesia" interchangeably to mean "church" and "The Church". You might say that the double-use and implied double-meaning is tricky and iffy; however, it is the truth. The Greek language (in its koine form) has no articles like we do in English (a, an and the). These don't exist, so they must be thrown into a translation. Where it is thrown in and where it isn't is a matter of the context of the ancient text in question. Latin works the same way, and I can't write phonetic Greek, so we'll use it as an example. Deus bonus est. (God is good.) AND Deus bonus est. (God is the (philosophical) Good.) You see how this can work? That's why we must take it within context. Cicero would depend on the second usage, while religious worshippers would depend on the first. Greek works in exactly the same way, and we cannot change ancient Greek ('cause it's already dead). The way that where these articles are thrown in is decided by the teaching office of the Holy Church (since She authentically interprets Holy Scripture). I hope this helps to clarify things. I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong on this, but here is another word besides ekklesia which is used for the word 'Church.' The other word is used I believe twice in the New Testament, and is descriptive of the Church as a whole(the Universal Church).
Circle_Master Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong on this, but here is another word besides ekklesia which is used for the word 'Church.' The other word is used I believe twice in the New Testament, and is descriptive of the Church as a whole(the Universal Church). i'm not familiar with that. i do believe 'church' is only translated as such for 'ekklesia' and there are four other times in the NT that 'ekklesia' is used for a gathering. Such as when the people in ephesus when they were forming a mob to kill Paul for speaking against idols - that was an ekklesia
Pio Nono Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 JMJ 1/17 - Our Lady's Saturday New Reformation, You're mixing up ekklesia with katholikos, I believe. Katholikos is a term that means "universal", but not in the goofy way interpreted today. It meant "across the board" or "worldwide" and described the beliefs of the ancient ekklesia. In a sense, if you were a part of the ekklesia, then you were considered one of the katholikoi, or one who ascribed to the beliefs of the ekklesia. I have not seen where an angry mob is described as an ekklesia, but a loose interpretation of the word would allow for that.
Circle_Master Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 I agree 100% on your discourse on greek right there. So when in context it says that Christ will wed the church in Ephesians, I automatically believe He will marry all those who are faithful to Him when He returns. Correct? Not an institution. what would you respond Pio Nono?
Anna Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 In a sense, if you were a part of the ekklesia, then you were considered one of the katholikoi, or one who ascribed to the beliefs of the ekklesia. I think this still holds true today. "Church" is comprised of those members who adhere to the Teachings which Christ gave to the Apostles, which they handed down, which the Magisterium protected, recorded, pronounced, and interpretted. Those who do not ascribe to the beliefs of The Church are separted brethren, and we hope and pray for unity one day, but I don't actually consider them to be "church." They believe as they wish, or as they see fit, not as The Church has consistently taught. Pax Christi. <><
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