Salvation Outside The Church?

[megamattman1]

here's my reply for what it's worth.

the church is all believers. I can't give a link or anything but i've read theologians say that all believers are part of the catholic church even if they aren't members fully. they lack the knowledge to be full memebers but it doesn't mean they aren't members. incidentally even catholics don't have full knowledge.

"catholic", remember a rose by any other name would smell as sweet, meaning that no matter what you call it, believers in Jesus are the members of the church.

no protestant i know has claimed to know everything. the question comes down to do the believers know the fullness of the truth? if you said the fullness of the truth is only to believe in Jesus, you're missing the point of the Catholic Chuch. why is the church necessary? the answer would have to be that God intended to teach his children how to live and love correctly with the necessary faith in Jesus as the foundation of their new life on earth.

[megamattman1]

I automatically believe He will marry all those who are faithful to Him when He returns. Correct? Not an institution.

i would persnoally have to say of course he's not going to marry an institution. but that depends on how you define institution. by your context you must mean even those who aren't not faithful would be part of the institution.

i think what your underlying theme is (even if you don't realize it? or realize it but not in ways enough to state it explicitly!) is what i said in my last post. you don't understand the necessity of the catholic church.

is that a fair assumption?

Edited January 18, 2004 by megamattman1

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

From the Catechism:

The Church is the Bride of Christ

796 The unity of Christ and the Church, head and members of one Body, also implies the distinction of the two within a personal relationship. This aspect is often expressed by the image of bridegroom and bride. The theme of Christ as Bridegroom of the Church was prepared for by the prophets and announced by John the Baptist.234 The Lord referred to himself as the "bridegroom."235 The Apostle speaks of the whole Church and of each of the faithful, members of his Body, as a bride "betrothed" to Christ the Lord so as to become but one spirit with him.236 The Church is the spotless bride of the spotless Lamb.237 "Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her."238 He has joined her with himself in an everlasting covenant and never stops caring for her as for his own body:239

This is the whole Christ, head and body, one formed from many . . . whether the head or members speak, it is Christ who speaks. He speaks in his role as the head (ex persona capitis) and in his role as body (ex persona corporis). What does this mean? "The two will become one flesh. This is a great mystery, and I am applying it to Christ and the Church."240 And the Lord himself says in the Gospel: "So they are no longer two, but one flesh."241 They are, in fact, two different persons, yet they are one in the conjugal union, . . . as head, he calls himself the bridegroom, as body, he calls himself "bride."242

[Anna]

So, are non-Catholic Christians really members of the Body of Christ, members of the Church, members of the body of believers, if their "body of beliefs' are not in accord with the beliefs of the Catholic Church?

If the answer is yes, then why do the Scriptures say: "One Faith, One baptism, One Lord"?

As one very wise poster puts it, "Christ has a bride, not a harem."

Pax Christi. <><

[Circle_Master]

So, are non-Catholic Christians really members of the Body of Christ, members of the Church, members of the body of believers, if their "body of beliefs' are not in accord with the beliefs of the Catholic Church?

If the answer is yes, then why do the Scriptures say: "One Faith, One baptism, One Lord"?

As one very wise poster puts it, "Christ has a bride, not a harem."

That's a good question. 1 Cor 12:13 does say that all who have the Holy Spirit within them are baptized into one body. You would even agree that protestants have the same Lord Jesus Christ. At least most of us protestants. So it would come down to one faith and how we interpret that. The faith you have (correct me if I'm wrong) is taught to be the entirety of the churches infallible teachings, the faith protestants purport is that of Jesus Christ coming in the flesh, dying, and rising again and now we must call on Him as Lord and Savior.

You may not like the terms, but it does seem you agree to one universal invisible church that consists of only faithful Christians (subject to pontificate in your case). Are we on the same page that this does exist? Or do we have a misunderstanding somewhere still?

[megamattman1]

You may not like the terms, but it does seem you agree to one universal invisible church that consists of only faithful Christians (subject to pontificate in your case). Are we on the same page that this does exist? Or do we have a misunderstanding somewhere still?

I agree. But don't try to underscore the Catholics belief in calling on Jesus as Lord and Savior.

And if you acknowledge this much as well that begs the question of why you don't believe in the Catholic Church.

i think what your underlying theme is (even if you don't realize it? or realize it but not in ways enough to state it explicitly!) is what i said in my last post. you don't understand the necessity of the catholic church.

is that a fair assumption?

[Circle_Master]

I suppose that is mostly fair. I don't understand the necessity of the catholic church. A single visible church would be useful if I saw Scripture pointing to one, but I don't, and history doesn't seem to either of the first century church. Usefulness never produces necessity in my mind however. Hopefully that is clear enough for my position, my mind is swimming a little atm.

[Norseman82]

So, are non-Catholic Christians really members of the Body of Christ, members of the Church, members of the body of believers, if their "body of beliefs' are not in accord with the beliefs of the Catholic Church? 

If the answer is yes, then why do the Scriptures say: "One Faith, One baptism, One Lord"? 

As one very wise poster puts it, "Christ has a bride, not a harem."

Pax Christi. <><

CCC 838 says thast they are in an "imperfect" union with the Catholic Church.

And I have to remember the "bride vs. harem" analogy.

[jasJis]

Of course non-Catholics and non-Christians can be members of the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church is many things. On Earth, it is the outward sign of people attempting to embrace the fullness of Grace God's revealation with knowledge the fullness of Grace comes through God's Church.

All People who attempt to embrace the fullness of Good they see inscribed in their heart and in the world, are members of the same Catholic Church in a spiritual sense. The Unity effected is by the Grace of Jesus Christ and His will that we all be one.

Grace is often blocked and ignored by our Sins. Grace moves us, but never overcomes our Free Will. God will judge our actions, read our hearts, and will know perfectly well what Graces He offered us, we recognized, and we refused. God will also know what sins of the world, of others, have effected our ability to comprehend and recognize Good, and limit our response to it. (see Invincible Ignorance, and the culpability of people raised outside the Catholic Faith).

Catholic Church = Earthly and Heavenly Institution but One Church incorporated in the Body of Christ

Membership in the Catholic Church =

Normative Temporal membership = Being a "card carrying, faithful Catholic" here on Earth.

Spiritual members = Being joined to the Body of Christ through our response to the Grace God has gifted each and every soul to recognize and follow Good (God) to the fullness of Grace granted. Not everyone has recieved the Grace of devout and faithful Catholic parents.

[Guest mario]

i wonder if this is really important. while i am catholic, i tend to think of God and Jesus and Mother Mary in more personal terms. God loves me more than i can imagine. he loves me now when i have returned to the Church, he loved me before when i turned away from the church, and i beleive that he loved me before time itself.

i personally know a lot of non-catholics who are good decent people. i cannot for one moment imagine that God does not love them as well.

mario

[Circle_Master]

Membership in the Catholic Church =

Normative Temporal membership = Being a "card carrying, faithful Catholic" here on Earth.

Spiritual members = Being joined to the Body of Christ through our response to the Grace God has gifted each and every soul to recognize and follow Good (God) to the fullness of Grace granted. Not everyone has recieved the Grace of devout and faithful Catholic parents.

So you agree in an invisible church, correct? I just want someone to clarify this and actually say it so we can discuss new things.

[geetarplayer]

Here's the devil's advocate in me:

Ghandi was not a very religious man--he willingly rejected Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism. But he was very spiritual. He always acted out of love. According to Catholic teachings, is he eligible for Salvation?

-Mark

[Don John of Austria]

Ghandi I was wondering when someone would bring him up. We do not know what was in someones heart, but Gandi willingly and publicly rejected Christ, unlike many in his country,he had a complete education and a great deal of oppertunity to learn about Christ. While agian we cannot know a man's fate, he certianly does not fall into the area of invincable ignorance, or even vincable ignorance, he wasn't ignorant he simply rejected Christ so know he would not be eligable for salvation.

[Guest mario]

i don't mean to be pedantic, but it's spelt "Gandhi"

personally i'm not Gandhi's biggest fan. those who are more closer to Indian history would probably tell you that he did more harm than good. anyway politics aside, you raise a very important point.

To reject God and his Church is to reject salvation. the parameters of what is the Church and just what constitutes rejection need to be explored however. what is the church? i've read through all 4 pages of this thread and i'm even more confused then before. and just what would constitute rejection? would questioning constitute rejection? is it not possible that the chuch can make mistakes? certainly people do commit errors no matter how noble their intentions may be.

i beleive it is very important that we never stop praying. we must look beyond the mistakes of the past, and accept the Church. if only i could share a little of the shame, that i feel for rejecting the church as well as the incredible feeling and comfort in knowing that while i strayed, God never stopped loving me. i read the above paragraphs that i write and i know i'm not making much sense. i suppose i am not that good at putting how i feel into words. but i hope and pray that you find the same happiness and comfort that i feel. whenever in doubt pray.

mario

[Don John of Austria]

I just quoted the above spelling because I couldn't remember how to spell it. And no the Church doesn't make mistakes, members of the CHurch do but the Church does not. That being said you must pay for your mistakes, if its a big one like rejecting Christ well its a big penalty, Hell.

[hyperdulia again]

The Church IS invisible in a sense--to say otherwise would be to make oneself a Feeneyite, and is made up of those who, to borrow Jas's beautiful phrasing, love (or I would go even further, try not to hate) Good. The Church is also a visible institution of people who wear the appelation "Catholic" and recognize the Earthly Headship of Christ's Vicar.

This is a paradox. Catholicism is covered with paradoxes, with things that must nuanced just right or else one makes a heretical statement, this is why Holy Church only defines Her doctrines under duress.

Edited January 19, 2004 by hyperdulia again

[Don John of Austria]

Loveing Good is not enough, one must be truely invincbly ignorant to be saved if one is not part of the Visable Church, there is not ssome general" it doesn't matter what church you belong to" garbage. It matters the only sure path that we know to salvation is the Sacramental path within the Visable Catholic Church, the rest is just speculation based on Gods amesome mercy, and has been defined as applying ONLY to those who CANNOT have chosen for Christ and His Church not those that DO NOT chose for Christ and His Bride no matter how much they love Good.