The Muslims And The Blessed Trinity

[123]

After mass today I was having a talk with a fellow parishoner and he was telling me that he feels that Muslims embrace the trinity. His example was that if I ate a piece of cake that I eat all the ingredients not just some of them. Therefore, Muslims and Jews worship the trinity because God "ingredients" are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

I have never heard it that way before, what would some of you think? Do Jews and Muslims embrace the Trinity in a different way?

[DAF]

I would say not in that way. By worshiping God, I guess they are worshiping the fullness of God, that is, the Trinity, but clearly they don't believe that to be the case, because they don't believe in the Trinity at all. So I would say, they aren't because that's not their intention (to be worshiping a triune God), but I would say that perhaps they are, but by accident.
However, I suppose you don't need to know you're eating all the ingredients to still be eating the cake. So you don't need to know your'e worshiping a triune God to be doing just that.
Just my thought though.

[chris]

Yes, I see the imagery of the cake. So, would muslims be our brothers in faith? I apologize for these questions I am still coming out of my closed mindedness that was engrained in my mind by the protestant church, taught since I was a wee lad.

If this is so. Would not the Church be saying that all faiths lead to Heaven.

[123]

[quote]Yes, I see the imagery of the cake. So, would muslims be our brothers in faith? I apologize for these questions I am still coming out of my closed mindedness that was engrained in my mind by the protestant church, taught since I was a wee lad.

If this is so. Would not the Church be saying that all faiths lead to Heaven.
[/quote]

Hmmm I agree...If muslims are our brothers of faith would the Church then be displaying syncretism, or the idea that all faiths eventually lead to the gates of Heaven?

Edited November 27, 2006 by GloriaIesusChristi

[Mateo el Feo]

Time for Mr. Negativity to comment.
[quote name='GloriaIesusChristi' post='1128227' date='Nov 26 2006, 06:25 PM']I have never heard it that way before, what would some of you think? Do Jews and Muslims embrace the Trinity in a different way?[/quote]Does an explicit denial in the Quran qualify as "embracing the Trinity in a different way"?

Seriously, I think this is a case of word games which confuses the reader rather than enlighten him/her.

[123]

[quote]Does an explicit denial in the Quran qualify as "embracing the Trinity in a different way"?
[/quote]

Where is this denial located at in the Quran?

Edited November 27, 2006 by GloriaIesusChristi

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='GloriaIesusChristi' post='1128720' date='Nov 27 2006, 12:47 AM']Where is this denial located at in the Quran?[/quote]
These are some of the most explicit quotes:
Sura 4:171 ([url="http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.171"]link[/url])
Sura 5:73 ([url="http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.073"]link[/url])
Sura 5:116 ([url="http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.116"]link[/url])

On both Muslim and Christian apologetic websites, these verses are cited often in discussion of the Trinity (e.g. [url="http://www.answering-islam.org/Trinity/index.html"]Answering Islam links to Trinitarian theological discussions[/url]).

[DAF]

Again, I don't think rejecting the Trinity changes the fact that you're worshiping a triune God.

Convert: I don't think having one act of belief in common is tantamount to fraternity in faith. That is to say, just because they stumbled upon worshiping God (who is in fact triune) does not qualify them as brothers. Of course they are our brothers in the whole scheme of things, but not in faith.

[DAF]

Double post

Edited November 27, 2006 by DAF

[thessalonian]

The Moslems cannot be said to embrace the trinity. I think the words of Christ to the woman at the well would apply "you worship the God you do not know". They do worship God but do not know him as he is.

[123]

I see...Speaking the other day with a Muslim professor, she confessed that they don't bind themselves to the 10 commands either. Is this because, it is not in the Quran?

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1128758' date='Nov 27 2006, 06:30 AM']
These are some of the most explicit quotes:
Sura 4:171 ([url="http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.171"]link[/url])
Sura 5:73 ([url="http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.073"]link[/url])
Sura 5:116 ([url="http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.116"]link[/url])

On both Muslim and Christian apologetic websites, these verses are cited often in discussion of the Trinity (e.g. [url="http://www.answering-islam.org/Trinity/index.html"]Answering Islam links to Trinitarian theological discussions[/url]).
[/quote]

You forgot Surah 6:110

[phatcatholic]

what if we were to say that [i]subjectively speaking[/i] they do not worship the Trinity, but [i]objectively speaking[/i] they do? would that be a meaningful distinction?

in other words, they do not believe in the Trinity (thus, in that sense, they do not worship a Trinitarian God) but the God that they worship (that we all worship) is in fact Trinitarian

[N/A Gone]

[quote]The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
(LG 16; cf. NA 3.)(LG=Lumen gentium, NA= Nostra aetate)[/quote]

CCC 841

I played with something a while ago as a protestant. Hopefully it has value here.

[quote]I have a working knowledge of the six doctrines of islam. In all respect for the christians here allow me to word them in an evangelical language. For I learned along time ago most of our differences come from language.

God is an all powerful, all seeing, all knowing creator. This view is very similar to the jewish view of God. minus the trinitarian theology

angels,(gabriel to Shaitan and the jinns...based on the hebrew terms for satan and denoms)

Scripture 4 God inspired books: torah of moses(xn call the pentateuch) the Zabur(pslams of david) the Injil(a version of the gospel of Jesus) and the Qur'an. but because doctrinally muslims believe that Jews and christians corrupted their scripture the Qur'an is Allah's final word to mankind, superseding all previous writings.

mohammed The quran lists 28 prophets of Allah, including Adam, noan abraham, moses, david, Jonah, and Jesus. but the last and greatest is Mohammed

Eschatology(end times) on the last day the dead will be resurrected. Allah will be the judge, and each person is sent to heaven or hell. Heaven is a place of sensual pleasure, hell is for those who oppose Allah and his prophet Mohammed.

Predestination God has determined what He pleases and no one can change what He has decreed (kismet, doctrine of fate) from this doctrine comes the most common islamic phrase,"if it is Allah's will"

Five Pillars of the faith:

Statement of belief to become a muslim, a person must publically repeat the Shahadah:"There is no god but Allah and Mohammed is the prophet of Allah."

Prayer Muslims pray five times a day-daybreak, noon, midafternoon, after sunset, early evening. The Muslim must kneel and bow in the prescribed manner in the direction of the holy city, Mecca.

Alms Muslim law today requires the believer to give one/fortieth of his profit (2.5%) this offering goes to the widows, orphans, the sick and other unfortunates.

Ramadan The ninth month of the islamic lunar year is called ramadan and is the highest Muslim holy season. Muslims are required to fast for the entire month. Food and drink, as well as smoking and sexual pleasures are forbidden, but only during daylight hours. During Ramadan, many muslims eat two meals a day, ther first just before sunrise, and the other shortly after sunset. During Ramadan, the believer must not commit any unworthy acts. If he does, his fasting is meaningless

Pilgrimage to mecca the Hajj, must be performed at least once in a lifetime. Or send someone in his/her place.

How the Qur'am contradicts the bible.

The bible has has an important influence on the teaching of Islam. For instance, the muslim proudly traces his ancestry to Ishmael, a son of Abraham. Muslim beliefs about the nature of God, the resurrection of the body and judgment are roughly similar to the teachings of the bible. But there are some striking differences. Here are some I have found of Muslim ideas contradicting what is taught in scripture.
For Muslims God is one, period Th QUr'an explicitly attacks the christian teaching on the trinity, saying that anyone who ascribes "partners" to God is committing the sin of shirk(blasphemy). This prohibition is explicitly directed against the christian doctrine of the trinity and the teaching that Jesus is God. Many muslims are also erroneously taught that Christians are reallyu tri-ttheists who believe in God the father, mary the mother, and Jesus the son. This grotesque caricature of the trinity is a complete misrepresentation of what the bible teaches and christians believe. Muslims also teach that Allah is transcendent (all-powerful) and relatively impersonal. Of the 99 names ascribed to God in Islam, "father" is omitted (to avoid the idea of the father and the son) This is in stark contrast to the Bible and to Jesus' own teaching, which says that God is our personal heavenly father. While one of the 99 Muslim names for God is "the merciful," he is not viewed primararily as a dispenser of love and grace, but more as a righteous judge to whom the Muslim must give account.
The Qur'an denies that Jesus is the son of God although is describes the virgin birth in a passage similar to luke 1:26-38(see Surah 3:45-47). The Qur'an calls Jesus a prphet equal to Abraham, Jonah, and others; bu places Him in rank far below Mohammed. Surah 4:171 says that "Jesus...was only a messenger of Allah...far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son" Mohammed totally ignored what the New testament says about Jesus' divinity (see, matt 8:29; 17:5; John 1:1-5; 8:58; 10:30, 14:9; 20:28; Col 1:15-17; 2:9) instead of admitting that verses like these exist, Muslims claim Christian have changed the bible.
The Qur'an says that Christ never really died on the Cross "they slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them'(Surah 4:157) According to Islam, Allah took Jesus to heaven just before the crucifixion, because it is unthinkable that an approved prophet of God should face such humiliating defeat. Muslims say Judas made up so cleverly to resemble Jesus that even Mary and the Disciples were fooled. A minority muslim theory is Jesus was in a coma on the cross and was taken down, revived and later died. Obviously, all of this is in complete opposition to the teaching of the bible and witness of early patristic history. As we have seen, the cross is the center of God's redemptive plan. The crucifixion of Christ was prophesied in the OT. Eyewitness accounts of that crucifixion are contained in each of the four gospels. Jesus predicted his death many times(see matt 16:21). Why did he die? as a ransom for many(mark 10:45) He promised that through His shed blood there would be fgorgiveness of sins (matt 26:2 As for Judas, the gospels tell us that he was the one who betrayed Jesus (see mark 14:10.11,43-45) and in remorse for what he did Judas hung himself. This is a major problem area in the testimony of islam. They claim this "eyewitness" testimony counter anything in patristic history, and developed it 400yrs after any possible witnesses were dead. In a nutshell there is no source from which this doctrine could be contributed to. Not even the early heresys felt this way.
Surah 4:111 declares that each perso must take care of his or her own sins The muslim must earn salvation from sin by following the 5 pillars of faith, if he doesnt make it, its his own fault:"whoever goes astray he himself bears the whole responsability of wondering"(surah 10:109) In contrast the bible teaches that we all have sinned and gone our own way. The only way mankind can find forgiveness is through faith in Christ.

In summery the major differences between Muslims and Christians

regarding God Muslims believe there is no God but Allah; Christians believe that God is revealed in scripture as father, son and Holy spirit, three persons who are coeternally God.

Regarding Jesus christ Muslims believe that Jesus was only a man, a prophet below Mohammed in importance, who did not die for man's sins; Christians say Christ is the son of God the sinless redeemer who died and rose again in fullfillment of scripture for sinful man.

Regarding sin Muslims claim that humans are born with hearts that are clean slates. If they commit sins, these can be overcome by acts of the will, christian counter that we are born corrupted(original sin) by sin, spiritually dead apart from God's grace, and that no one does good apart from faith.

Regarding salvationMuslims say that Allah does not love those who do wrong, and each person must earn his or her own salvation; christians contend that a loving God sent His son to die for our sins; according to the scripture.

I hope and pray I did an accurate and respectful job of comparing the common points and differences in our two faiths.,[/quote]

[Aloysius]

working with the cake concept... each "ingredient" as you call it, in a trinitarian sense, must be co-equal and consubstantial, of one essence. The Father is the full cake, the Son is the full cake, the Holy Spirit is the full cake.

but if, for the sake of analogy, you say the Father is 1/3 the cake, the Son is 1/3 the cake, and the Holy Spirit is 1/3 the cake. Muslims specifically say not to worship 2/3 of the cake... even if they say the worship the whole cake; they explicity forbid the worshipping of 2/3 the cake. therefore, they are not worshipping the whole cake. even the 1/3 they insist upon worshipping they have many mistakes about... they are not worshipping the cake.

[DAF]

But Aloysius, again I would offer that simply because they say they do not, that does not change the situation that a) they worship God, b) God is triune, therefore, they worship the triune God, i.e. the Trinity.

I think PC summed it up pretyt well.

[goldenchild17]

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the [b]Muslims[/b]; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and [b]together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.[/b]"

If your church worships the Trinity, and if the Muslims worship the same God as you do, like the CCC says, then it follows that the Muslims too somehow worship the Trinity. If A=B and B=C then A=C

[Aloysius]

they explicitly refuse to worship the Son and the Holy Spirit. they explicitly forbid worshipping the Son.

if you say you are eating the whole cake, but you refuse to eat 2/3 of the cake, you are not eating the whole cake. one can say you are eating from the same cake, but you are only eating part of it.

Muslims refuse and specifically reject worshipping 2/3 of God.. they can be said to be worshipping the same God insofar as they partially worship Him.

you are misinterpretting the Catechism's statement that they worship the same God. likewise one could say the eat the same cake even if they only eat a peice of it; it never says the fully worship Him, or that they worship all of Him, or even that their understanding of His essence is the same as God's true essence. all it says is that they direct their worship towards Him but not that they worship Him totally.

[goldenchild17]

So what you're saying is that when something says the Muslims worship the same God, in effect they are actually NOT saying the Muslims worship the same God? How many years of gymnastics do I need to take to jump through all those hoops?

Nostra Aetate says the same thing:

"3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men"

Where is there any indication that they do NOT in fact worship ALL of the same God being referred here?

You say that I misunderstand it because I interpret it to mean what it is saying ie that Muslims worship the one true God. Is there any other post-Vatican II document that would help you in this? Because I'm not familiar with one.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='phatcatholic' post='1129035' date='Nov 27 2006, 04:36 PM']
what if we were to say that [i]subjectively speaking[/i] they do not worship the Trinity, but [i]objectively speaking[/i] they do? would that be a meaningful distinction?

in other words, they do not believe in the Trinity (thus, in that sense, they do not worship a Trinitarian God) but the God that they worship (that we all worship) is in fact Trinitarian
[/quote]
i think the solution may lie in the above distinction. what do you all think?