The Muslims And The Blessed Trinity

[goldenchild17]

If this (and other statements) was meant to be taken another way wouldn't there be something, somewhere to indicate it? Instead all we have are numerous confirmations of the same belief:

John Paul II to Muslim youth: "“We believe in the [b]same[/b] God, the one and only God, the living God, the God who creates worlds and brings creatures to their perfection” (What Dialogue Means for Catholics and Muslims, US Conference of Catholic Bishops, [url="http://www.usccb.org/seia/brunett.htm)"]http://www.usccb.org/seia/brunett.htm)[/url]

I hope I'm wrong on this because essentially this teaching was a fundamental one in my conversion away from this church and it would be a large step in my return if such a thing were to happen.

Edited November 29, 2006 by goldenchild17

[Aloysius]

there needn't be one. the documents of Vatican II as well as all magisterial documents are meant to be interpretted in the light of tradition. this is the only interpretation which syncs both with traditional teaching and current magisterial teaching; if it does not mean this, then the Church has fallen into error (either in the past or in the present).

it's really not too much of a hoop. if I say that a muslim is eating the same cake as us, but we eat the entire cake and the muslim just has a peice of that cake, I said something perfectly valid. it is the same thing here.

it would contradict logic to think that this statement meant that muslims, who explicitly forbid the worship of the Trinity, was saying that the muslims worshipped the Trinity. if the Church was saying that, not only would it have contradicted past teaching but it would also be contradicting logic... or at least free will. the muslims have the power of free will-- if they will not to worship the Son they will not be worshipping the Son.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='phatcatholic' post='1130256' date='Nov 28 2006, 09:19 PM']
i think the solution may lie in the above distinction. what do you all think?
[/quote]

mmm, wouldn't that be a better way to explain Abraham's belief? In that he believed in the one true God but didn't believe in the Trinity, not because He refused it but because it was not revealed to him? Muslims have the knowledge, yet they openly deny...

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1130261' date='Nov 28 2006, 09:20 PM']
there needn't be one. the documents of Vatican II as well as all magisterial documents are meant to be interpretted in the light of tradition. this is the only interpretation which syncs both with traditional teaching and current magisterial teaching; if it does not mean this, then the Church has fallen into error (either in the past or in the present).

it's really not too much of a hoop. if I say that a muslim is eating the same cake as us, but we eat the entire cake and the muslim just has a peice of that cake, I said something perfectly valid. it is the same thing here.

it would contradict logic to think that this statement meant that muslims, who explicitly forbid the worship of the Trinity, was saying that the muslims worshipped the Trinity. if the Church was saying that, not only would it have contradicted past teaching but it would also be contradicting logic... or at least free will. the muslims have the power of free will-- if they will not to worship the Son they will not be worshipping the Son.
[/quote]

If the Muslims worship the same God, then wouldn't this be the case for anyone that worshipped a higher being, a god of some sort?

[Aloysius]

they make a point not to worship the Trinitarian nature of God. their worship is directed towards the God who is Trinitarian, but they refuse to worship Him as the Son or the Holy Spirit. God will not contradict their free will and have them worship the Trinity without knowing it; if God is truly accepting their worship in any way He is only accepting it in the way they intend it: and they specifically intend not to worship the Son or the Holy Spirit.

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1130264' date='Nov 28 2006, 09:27 PM']
mmm, wouldn't that be a better way to explain Abraham's belief? In that he believed in the one true God but didn't believe in the Trinity, not because He refused it but because it was not revealed to him? Muslims have the knowledge, yet they openly deny...
If the Muslims worship the same God, then wouldn't this be the case for anyone that worshipped a higher being, a god of some sort?
[/quote]
only if they worshipped a God of absolute Transcendence; which, if you read my one thread in the debate table from a while ago ("Islam as Pagan Monotheism?"), I'm not entirely convinced the muslims even do. what puts them in a special situation is that they specifically identify the God of Abraham, and they specifically identify the Son as who-not-to-worship.

the Greek Philosophers logically arrived at a God of absolute transcendence; that put them in a special situation, and that God is, of course, Trinitarian even if they didn't know it. they never said "We worship you, oh non-trinitarian God who is not a trinity who neither begets nor is begotten...yada yada yada" and so this previous cake analogy could fit them-- they just didn't know as much about Him. but it does not fit the muslims.

[phatcatholic]

aloy........i'm having trouble pinning down exactly what you think the meaning is of the various quotations that goldchild provided. when they say catholics and muslims "worship the same God," what does that mean?

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1130269' date='Nov 28 2006, 09:28 PM']God will not contradict their free will and have them worship the Trinity without knowing it; if God is truly accepting their worship in any way He is only accepting it in the way they intend it: and they specifically intend not to worship the Son or the Holy Spirit.[/quote]

So the true God (fully so or not) is a God that is not 3 persons in one?

The difference we are looking at it seems are the words "truly" and "fully". How can one worship the true God if he does not worship the full God? If God does not reject their free will then why does He accept their worship if they purposely, and freely, reject Him? Does God accept false worship at all?

“The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her" - Pope Gregory XVI

Notice he doesn't say "fully" accept in her. If he were to say this instead of "truly" then there would be a difference. He would be affirming that it is possible to still truly worship God but incompletely. But he doesn't, he's telling us that one cannot truly worship God, fully or not, outside of the Catholic Church.

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1130269' date='Nov 28 2006, 09:34 PM']what puts them in a special situation is that they specifically identify the God of Abraham, and they specifically identify the Son as who-not-to-worship.[/quote]
Let's work with this for a bit. They do say they worship the God of Abraham. Would you agree that they do? Was the God of Abraham a Trinity or not? Did Abraham specifically identify the Son as who not to worship?

[quote name='phatcatholic' post='1130278' date='Nov 28 2006, 09:37 PM']
aloy........i'm having trouble pinning down exactly what you think the meaning is of the various quotations that goldchild provided. when they say catholics and muslims "worship the same God," what does that mean?
[/quote]

Of course I'll let him answer but it seems he's making the distinction that Muslims do "truly" worship the same God, but not "fully". As in they worship part of the full God and thus worship God. I probably didn't get that right, but I'm still trying to understand it myself .

[Aloysius]

muslims direct their attention to our God. there is not necessarily a true substantial equality between the God they worship and our God, however. they worship partly our God in false ways, and specifically refuse to worship the fullness of our God. their understanding of our God is at odds with who our God really is, they have constructed for themselves a god which is not our God.

yet they direct their worship towards our God, the God of Abraham. they thus, worship part of Him (of course, goldenchild, none of the worship is 'true worship', for true worship is found only in the communion of the Catholic Church).

They worship the God of Abraham. that's a true statement. here's how: they direct their worship towards the God of Abraham thus, in effect, worshipping the God of Abraham. But Abraham did not restrict his prayers by specifically willing not to worship the Son or the Holy Spirit; He merely did not know of these persons but sought to worship the fullness of God. The muslims attempt to worship the fullness of God, but specifically refuse to worship what we know to be His Persons; therefore in refusing to worship "part" (again, I have to use this terminology for the sake of discussion but it's terribly imprecise to speak of the Persons of the Trinity as "parts of God") of Him, they do not acheive worshipping the fullness of God.

had Abraham specifically refused to worship the Son, he would not have been worshipping God fully.

and in the Age of the New Covenant, no worship outside of communion with the New Covenant is true worship.

muslims therefore have 'false' worship of part of the True God.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1130314' date='Nov 28 2006, 10:11 PM']

muslims therefore have 'false' worship of part of the True God.
[/quote]
that just seems alot different than the statement from the CCC that they worship the "same" God.

i still hold that the key to the problem is in the distinction between subjective and objective worship. you seem to be making that distinction as well.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1130314' date='Nov 28 2006, 10:11 PM']muslims therefore have 'false' worship of part of the True God.
[/quote]

And when we break it down this far, we come to a point in which I don't really disagree. I disagree that this is what the Catechism is saying but that is besides the point.

The point here now, is that once we make such a statement "muslims therefore have 'false' worship of part of the True God." cannot we make the exact same statement about any and all other faiths that worship some sort of god at all?

[123]

I guess the maybe in a sense they [b] don't[/b] worship the trinity, because they [b] don't [/b] want to.

I have been reading over the Quran for sometime. The book has many wise words and I work for a lady that is Islamic. I enjoy our discussions very much and our religious relations. However, will her rejection of the Trinity harm her eternally?

[Guest JeffCR07]

There was once a king riding back to his castle, while two watchmen stood on the ramparts. As the king approached, still far off, the two watchmen said to one another, "Look, the King is approaching!" As they watched the king approach, the first watchman said "What a marvelous golden crown the king has upon his head," but the second watchman responded saying, "The king's crown is silver, not gold." The first watchman replied, "The king's crown is purest gold, look more closely and you will see." As the king finally drew near, it became clear that the king's crown was, in fact, gold, and the two watchmen ran to greet the king and let him enter.

Who saw the king more truly, and does that mean that the other watchmen did not see the king at all?

Edited November 29, 2006 by JeffCR07

[Aloysius]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1130325' date='Nov 28 2006, 10:24 PM']
And when we break it down this far, we come to a point in which I don't really disagree. I disagree that this is what the Catechism is saying but that is besides the point.

The point here now, is that once we make such a statement "muslims therefore have 'false' worship of part of the True God." cannot we make the exact same statement about any and all other faiths that worship some sort of god at all?
[/quote]
no, we cannot. the muslims direct it at our God by specifying that He is substantially the God of Abraham and that he is the one only true God who created heaven and earth yada yada yada.

Jeff, the one who saw the right color saw the king more fully, the one who saw the wrong color only saw part of the king. had the other said "I refuse to accept a king with a gold crown", then he would not accept the king. but this analogy does not really get at the issue actually being discussed here.

I say that objectively as well as objectively Muslims do not worship the Trinity. if they did, God would be violating their free will. they will to not worship the Trinity; there is thus no objective worship of the Trinity occurring-- they purposefully refuse to worship all of God and thus are only worshipping part of God.

there is no incompatability with the CCC saying they worship the same God, because in directing their worship at part of God their worship is going to that same God. they do not worship all of God, they specifically will not to.

the only reason we can even say the worship the same God at all is because they will to worship the God of Abraham. such an act of will necessitates that the worship be directed at that God. refusing to allow that their will can prevent them from worshipping the Son would pull the logic right out of why they can worship our God at all. it is an act of their will which makes them worship our God: they will to worship our God. they also will not to worship His persons of the Son and the Holy Ghost-- their will determines the objective reality about their worship. if it does not, then there is no objective reality about their worship that could even connect it to our God at all.

it's not a mere distinction between subjective and objective. it is an objective reality reality that they do not worship the fullness of God because they will not to.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='JeffCR07' post='1130369' date='Nov 28 2006, 11:13 PM']
There was once a king riding back to his castle, while two watchmen stood on the ramparts. As the king approached, still far off, the two watchmen said to one another, "Look, the King is approaching!" As they watched the king approach, the first watchman said "What a marvelous golden crown the king has upon his head," but the second watchman responded saying, "The king's crown is silver, not gold." The first watchman replied, "The king's crown is purest gold, look more closely and you will see." As the king finally drew near, it became clear that the king's crown was, in fact, gold, and the two watchmen ran to greet the king and let him enter.

Who saw the king more truly, and does that mean that the other watchmen did not see the king at all?
[/quote]
A crown is not part of a king. If a king takes off his crown to go to sleep is he no longer a king? No.


If John is the king, but somebody really and truly believes with all of his heart that James is the king is James actually the king? No. If John is the king but somebody really and truly believes that James is the king, does this somehow get turned around to mean that this person actually believes John is the king when in fact he has openly declared otherwise? Of course not.

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1130532' date='Nov 29 2006, 01:38 AM']
no, we cannot. the muslims direct it at our God by specifying that He is substantially the God of Abraham and that he is the one only true God who created heaven and earth yada yada yada. [/quote]

Abraham worshipped the true God because the God he worshipped was the Trinity. Abraham simply was not made aware of this fact. Unlike this, the muslims do have this knowledge and instead openly reject it.

[quote]I say that objectively as well as objectively Muslims do not worship the Trinity. if they did, God would be violating their free will. they will to not worship the Trinity; there is thus no objective worship of the Trinity occurring-- they purposefully refuse to worship all of God and thus are only worshipping part of God.[/quote]

Question 1: Which part of God are they worshipping?

Question 2: Do not just about any faith worship some aspect of a god that could be put in the same category? If not, then why Muslims?

[quote]there is no incompatability with the CCC saying they worship the same God, because in directing their worship at part of God their worship is going to that same God. they do not worship all of God, they specifically will not to.[/quote]

Again, how in particular is this different from other faiths? And it has nothing to do with Abraham. They may THINK they are worshipping the same God as Abraham, but Abraham's God was the Trinity unrevealed. God has revealed himself. Muslims have no excuse.

[quote]the only reason we can even say the worship the same God at all is because they will to worship the God of Abraham. such an act of will necessitates that the worship be directed at that God. refusing to allow that their will can prevent them from worshipping the Son would pull the logic right out of why they can worship our God at all. it is an act of their will which makes them worship our God: they will to worship our God. they also will not to worship His persons of the Son and the Holy Ghost-- their will determines the objective reality about their worship. if it does not, then there is no objective reality about their worship that could even connect it to our God at all.

it's not a mere distinction between subjective and objective. it is an objective reality reality that they do not worship the fullness of God because they will not to.[/quote]

Okay so then it's all simply a matter of what we intend. If we intend to do right, but instead sin, then it doesn't matter because our heart was in the right place. If we OPENLY REJECT the true God (which Tradition says the Muslims have done) but intend to worship the God of Abraham then it's all good, because our heart was in the right place? Everybody on earth has some set of beliefs that they believe are true. Whether or not a specific person's belief is actually correct or not is irrelevant because they INTEND to hold the correct belief??? There goes any need for Catholicism, or organized religion of any kind for that matter...

[Aloysius]

no, because the muslim's worship is false worship anyway. if you will to worship the True God as He revealed Himself, even if you do not accept all of revelation, you will worship the True God.

your conclusions do not follow about other religions. the God of this religion has its source in the revelation to Abraham. they direct their false worship towards this God. if one wills their worship towards the True God based upon something in which God actually revealed himself, that worship goes towards the True God.

it is, of course, not true worship (because for true worship to exist it must be in communion with the body of Christ), but it is directed towards the True God; but it is directed only at a portion of Him-- the omnipotent transcendent

I accept that the worship is correctly aimed to God; but I am perfectly within the bounds of doctrine to say that while they direct the worship correctly, their God is not the True God; for the reason that they explicitly reject the Trinity as well as for the reason that I believe their understanding of His transcendence. the CCC teaches only that their worship goes to Him; not that their understanding of Him is correct at all.

[Guest JeffCR07]

We would all do well to realise that it is never theologically wrong to say, with Scripture, [i]Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Ehad[/i]. Speaking of substance is different than speaking of persons. There are not three substances in the Trinity, but one substance, and that is why it is said, "Hear, O Israel, The Lord Your God, the Lord is One." Disagreement over the number of persons in the Godhead does not result in a disagreement over the substance of that same Godhead.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

[Aloysius]

but if one specifically wills not to worship the Son, then in their worship they do not worship the Son. therefore, I do not believe they worship all of God. Their worship is directed at the right God, sure, but they do not worship God in essence because they explicitly will not to worship the Son.

it's not just disagreement, it's that they will not to worship Him.

your argument presumes that Muslims worship the actual essence of God. I say that the mere statement that they 'worship the same God' does not necessarily mean that they worship Him in essence. If they specifically will not to worship the Son or the Holy Spirit, then they are not worshipping them. and if the Son and the Holy Spirit are both of one and the same Essence, then they are not essentially worshipping God. They are worshipping Him in some way, insofar as they direct their worship correctly to Him, but in this way they do not worship Him because they will not to worship Him.

[goldenchild17]

So they direct false worship towards a "partially" true God. And not only this, but they specifically make it clear that they have no wish, nor intention to direct ANY (much less partial) worship towards this true God? With all respect, as I do respect your opinion on here, I'm just having the hardest time wrapping my mind around this... Psalms tells us that "all the gods of the gentiles are devils...", and yet for the Muslims their God is "partially true" even though they make it particularly clear that they reject the true God? Maybe there is a church document or theologian or Church Father that might have said or wrote something which could explain how a non-Catholic can worship anything other than a "devil". As you said God cannot force anyone to worship him. This would be against the concept of free will. So I'm not sure how the Muslims can somehow subconsciously be worshipping the true God against their specific declaration that they would not do so.

You say they worship "part" of God. Is this possible? Which part? Do they worship the Father? But Scripture tells us that no one comes to the Father except through the Son. How can they worship the Father without the Son? How can they worship any of God at all without the inspiration of the Holy Ghost?

I don't see how one can worship God, incorrectly or partly, if his god is a devil.

[Aloysius]

they direct worship at the God of the scriptures; the God they identify as the God of the Jews and the Christians: the one only true God who created heaven and earth. none of these things applies to any pagan God. that's what makes their worship correctly directed.

the god the muslims construct around that: who is 'neither begotten nor begets' and who, arguably, is will over logic (like a pagan god), et cetera is a devil certainly. but they direct their worship towards the True God, and thus partially worship the True God.

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1130795' date='Nov 29 2006, 12:25 PM']
but if one specifically wills not to worship the Son, then in their worship they do not worship the Son. therefore, I do not believe they worship all of God. Their worship is directed at the right God, sure, but they do not worship God in essence because they explicitly will not to worship the Son.

it's not just disagreement, it's that they will not to worship Him.

your argument presumes that Muslims worship the actual essence of God. I say that the mere statement that they 'worship the same God' does not necessarily mean that they worship Him in essence. If they specifically will not to worship the Son or the Holy Spirit, then they are not worshipping them. and if the Son and the Holy Spirit are both of one and the same Essence, then they are not essentially worshipping God. They are worshipping Him in some way, insofar as they direct their worship correctly to Him, but in this way they do not worship Him because they will not to worship Him.
[/quote]

God is One, and there is no part or division in God. Even His Essence and Existence are the same. The only multiplicity that one can speak of with regards to God is the multiplicity of Persons, and this is not a multiplicity of essence, nor substance, nor existence. Neither the Divine Essence, nor the Divine Substance, nor the Divine Existence admits of any part or division whatsoever.

Your argument makes the potentially heretical mistake of locating the Trinity "within" the essence of the Godhead. This however is not the case. The entire essence of the Godhead is present in each person of the Trinity. Thus, giving worship to God the Father without giving worship to God the Son does not mean that one is giving worship to "part" of the Divine Essence, for the [i]whole essence[/i] of the Godhead is present in the person of God the Father. Even if one explicitly refuses to give worship to God the Son, this does not change the fact that worship [i]is[/i] being given to God the Father, and the whole, undivided nature of the Godhead is present in the person of the Father.

It seems to me that much confusion concerning trinitarian doctrine is arising because people are confusing the kinds of questions that can be asked. Questions asking "what God is" are questions which deal with the Divine Nature. Questions asking "who God is" are questions which deal with the Divine Persons. Jews, Christians, and Muslims all agree on the former, but disagree as to the latter. Thus, when Jews and Muslims worship, they are worshipping the same Divine Substance as do Christians, but they are not necessarily worshipping the same Divine Person.

To argue that their lacking of the truth with regards to the Divine Persons somehow results in the fact that they are not worshipping the same Divine Substance is to make a so-called "category mistake."

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

Edited November 29, 2006 by JeffCR07

[Aloysius]

numerous times I mentioned the imprecise nature of the wording I was offering.

my assertion is that, in this sense, muslims do not worship the True God because they will not to worship the Son. it is not mere ignorance, they will not to worship the Son and the Holy Spirit.

I do not intend to say that they worship only the Father. I intend to say that though they direct their worship at God, they do not worship the Trinity because they will against worshipping the trinity and as such are truly not worshipping God in essence.

they direct their worship towards the true God, and that is the only sense in which the statement "they worship the same God" is correct. it is not a substantial statement about the nature of God, it is a statement about where they direct their worship. but they do not actually accomplish a true worship of the Tri-une God-- they will not to worship the Tri-une God.