Mandated Celibacy

[the_rev]

My dear friends in Christ,

The one thing that really discourages me as I continue my application for the seminary are people who don't like where the church are now, and it really seems the two main issues are married priesthood and woman priests. It really discourages me I guess.

Yesterday we had a "free day" in Math, and with the knowledge that my Math teacher is a "liberal" catholic who believes the Church should allow married priests and woman priests had a discussion with me after he asked if I decided where I would be going to college.

What I also love is when non-catholics say a married clergy would decrease the dearth of priests we have now.

His points are:

Living the life of celibacy is lonely.
The early church had married and women priests
What is the difference if there is a celibate man consecrating the host or a married man?

(I'm sure there were more but this is all I got now.)

I just respond as I usually do that the life of celibacy may be lonely but as a priest you are so busy that really your never alone. I also stated that at least 10 of the "married priests" in the latin rite who convereted from Anglicanism said that they are grateful to the church but these two vocations can not be lived out successfully because you can not give of your time.

The Church needed to start somewhere, When Christ founded a church most men were already married. Though that was a tradition for the first 1000 years there must be a reason why the Church felt a need to make the change.

Finally, my answer to his last claim is that in order to conform our lives to Christ we must be Christ like who too was celibate. The priesthood is about Jesus Christ and to be more like him we should live in the state of being he lived.

What else can I say?

Thanks.

Edward

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I wonder where he heard that the early Church had women priests?

[Guest phatdaddy]

Ed,

With regards to women priest, the church has spoken infallibly many times on this subject yet their are people who dissent. So what else is new. I always like to refer to the most recent words of JP 2 where he again, with absolute clarity, stated that it is not possible by divine law for a women to be validly ordained as a priest. It has never happened and it never will. Any time this dicussion comes up, reference to what JP wrote in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is all the argument you need as it is the constant teaching of the Church.

From ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS by the late John Paul II:

"Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the Magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church's judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force."

"Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. <Lk> 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful."

That's pretty clear and I would say "case closed"......again.

On the other topic, of course there is room to discuss the discipline of celibacy for priesthood and consecrated life, but the widom of the church should be given high esteem and should be considered normative. Of course, we have to realize that even though the wisdom and sound reasoning of the Church and her teaching will not change the mind of people who have an agenda. So, let us pray: Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Amen.

Mr. Ray

[prose]

It is very funny because where I am from, some people consider me "Ultra-conservative", in fact, I almost wasn't asked to be a youth director because I was too conservative.

But on this topic, I have a strong view.

Women will never be priests, deal with it. God has roles for men and women.

Men may someday be able to be married, as there are married priests now. We will see.

The thing is- and here is my view - it doesn't make one spec of difference to me. I will never be a priest. My husband will never be a priest. That isn't our calling. If that is where God directs his Church, so be it. I support the Vatican either way on this subject. For now, it is celibate priests, and so I support that position. If it changes, it changes. I could care less.

The only thing that really concerns me is that married priests would cost a lot more money. The churches would need to pay them a living wage. Many small churches would collapse (I think) because of this financial burden. It may lead to a future of HUGE congregations.

For now, there are much more important things in this world to worry about.

[thessalonian]

I highly recommend that anyone who questions the Churches theology in areas related to sex, including the issue of celibacy in the priesthood get Christopher West's DVD or tape series concerning Theology of the Body. Celibacy is a calling. In todays sexually disfunctional society, the example of celibacy for the Kingdom (see Matt 19) is needed more than ever. The man who is celibate for the Church should not be so in a repressive manner, i.e. so that his sexuality is held at bay as if it would have been bad for them to get married. Rather they forgoe earthly sexuality for the thing that it represents/forshadows. Intimate union with God almighty in the hereafter for all eternaity. Marriage is in the here and now. It is not eternal. Our sexuality should not be repressed or indulged but redeemed and we need men and women in the celibate life giving us examples of people with redeemed sexuality. Listen to Mr. West. His materials are available at www.christopherwest.com. He likely has an article or two there on the matter as well.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Just a reflection that I keep coming back to:

So often I run into that same argument - "If we just let priests get married, that would solve the vocation crisis!"

Let's imagine that this were true for a second. If there really were all these men who genuinely and passionately felt called to serve the Church through Holy Orders, but were also married, we would be [i]flooded[/i] with permanent deacons, since they can be married.

*looks around* Nope, no deacons.

The fact is, the argument is either coming from ignorance, or it is intentionally being used to hide some ulterior motive. Sadly, I think it is often the latter case. Not necessarily that these people are malicious in their intent, but rather, they genuinely think the Church would be better off the more "progressive" it is, and they see a married priesthood, since it constitutes a break in the Latin tradition, as being a good thing. That, however, is a problem of an entirely different nature, and the fact remains that having a married priesthood won't affect vocations - telling young boys and young men that becoming a priest or religious is ok and good, however, [i]that[/i] will make a difference.

[cappie]

Short comment: What would you do with divorced priests??? It's a problem in Protestant Churches. In Australia in the Anglican Church if you are a divorced priest you cannot be a rector of a parish. On the other hand the local Uniting Church Minister is on his third wife!!

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='cappie' post='1151683' date='Dec 29 2006, 06:52 PM'] On the other hand the local Uniting Church Minister is on his third wife!!
[/quote]

[thessalonian]

Jeff,

That's a good point about deacons. I would however say that there are vocations to the deaconite. But most of these are coming from older men who I don't think had a great desire to be preists when they were you. Their might be an increase in vocations. I myself might consider it. But it would not be a large one. Further the priests they get would be divided as Paul says and the Church would have to make considerations for their family life. This would not give the expected relief because preists now, God Bless them, at least at parishes I am involded in are available throughout the day and night.

Again celibacy points to our final state in the afterlife and a celibate priesthood is a foreshadowing of that. It helps us to focus on the eternal and therefore is very valuable, especially in today's sexually bankrupt society.

[SRMiller]

Growing up Protestant, with married pastors, I just want to say how glad I am to have a celibate priesthood. I'm sure there are some pastors who managed to balance their duties for church and family, but I haven't met any, and I'm related to two pastors. Both of them have had major family problems because they've been divided in their attention. So for me, I'm all for a celibate priesthood. I honestly don't see how they could do it otherwise. I mean, I go to a small parish, and the one priest there, no deacons, programs all the music and does every Mass, and reconciliation, and I don't think he'd really have time for a family.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='SRMiller' post='1154495' date='Jan 2 2007, 04:40 AM']
Growing up Protestant, with married pastors, I just want to say how glad I am to have a celibate priesthood. I'm sure there are some pastors who managed to balance their duties for church and family, but I haven't met any, and I'm related to two pastors. Both of them have had major family problems because they've been divided in their attention. So for me, I'm all for a celibate priesthood. I honestly don't see how they could do it otherwise. I mean, I go to a small parish, and the one priest there, no deacons, programs all the music and does every Mass, and reconciliation, and I don't think he'd really have time for a family.
[/quote]

Interesting you should say this. I heard a poll one time where 60% of Protestant pastors said if they had it to do over again they would not be a pastor because of the strains on family life. Protestant Churches have a very high turnover rate. I believe it is in 2 years, only 1/4 of the pastors remain in the same place.

[SRMiller]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1154545' date='Jan 2 2007, 03:49 PM']
Interesting you should say this. I heard a poll one time where 60% of Protestant pastors said if they had it to do over again they would not be a pastor because of the strains on family life. Protestant Churches have a very high turnover rate. I believe it is in 2 years, only 1/4 of the pastors remain in the same place.
[/quote]

I didn't realize that, but it doesn't really surprise me. My old (Baptist) church had this one pastor for quite a while, but since then it's been an average of 3-4 years. My parents church has had the same lead pastor for 10 years, but their associate pastors have quit for various reasons, so I guess those statistics make sense to me.

[dandy777]

I know that most probably most of you won't agree with me but I am all for married priests. Don't take me wrong, I highly esteem celibacy and I do understand and cherish its value yet I don't believe that it has to be mandatory. It has to be a choice just as it is in the Eastern Rite. It is true that when Jesus founded the church, most of its members were married but he could have chosen only unmarried Apostles instead of a mixture. When one is young, it is very easy to be enthusiastic about the work to be done and changing the world by spreading the Word and by keeping oneself occupied, one does manage to forget loneliness. However as time goes by, the need to build something concrete in one's life grows and for this reason I believe that there are some really good priests that have also a family vocation. By saying so, I am in no way diminishing their call to the priesthood but that there are some priests who have two calls in their lives. Once I read a book, I forgot its name though, that explains this much better. It is not a question of lust or just the need to procreate. I think it is very difficult to explain unless one goes through it.

However, I am totally against women being ordained as priests. Maybe I am a bigot but I don't like the idea of having a woman wearing a collar or a cassock.

[Theologian in Training]

Dandy,

I understand where you are coming from, however, I have to disagree with you that we "forget lonliness," whether we are young or old, we never forget that. What we do is realize that part of a priest's life is to be sacrificial...he offers a sacrifice everyday, He stands in the person of Christ everyday, and he pours himself out on that altar each and everyday as well. Is it hard? Definitely. Is it impossible, no..."All things are possible with God." Every single priest, whether they admit it or not, knew what they were doing before actually doing it, and, as beautiful as having a family is, they felt they were called to something else, that God wanted them to fulfill their vocation in life as a father of a large extended family.

Also, normally most men get married rather young, so I would actually think it would be harder for them when they were younger rather than older, despite their enthusiasm to "change the world." Also, as we grow older if our life was not "concrete" in the beginning how is a family going to make it any more concrete? I would imagine it would cause more problems than solutions.

I am not picking on you, because, as a priest, I think about this myself (any priest that does not admit it is lying to you) but whenever I get to the points you just cited I realize what I just said as well. Granted, you may fit me in the category of being a young, ethusiastic priest who wants to change the world, but even us "young enthusiastic" types have our days as well, and that is part of the nature of the vocation itself and part of the sacrifice that we make as being priests. It is God constantly saying, "are you sure," and us saying "yes, I am sure." The struggle for holiness, whether as priest or layperson is still a struggle, no one said it would be easy, that is what it means to live as a Christian and as one who is willing to "take up the cross" each and everyday whether we want to or not.

Just my .02 on the whole thing, take it for what its worth.

God Bless

Fr. Brian

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='the_rev' post='1148023' date='Dec 23 2006, 09:42 AM']My dear friends in Christ,

The one thing that really discourages me as I continue my application for the seminary are people who don't like where the church are now, and it really seems the two main issues are married priesthood and woman priests. It really discourages me I guess.

Yesterday we had a "free day" in Math, and with the knowledge that my Math teacher is a "liberal" catholic who believes the Church should allow married priests and woman priests had a discussion with me after he asked if I decided where I would be going to college.

What I also love is when non-catholics say a married clergy would decrease the dearth of priests we have now.

His points are:

Living the life of celibacy is lonely.
The early church had married and women priests
What is the difference if there is a celibate man consecrating the host or a married man?

(I'm sure there were more but this is all I got now.)

I just respond as I usually do that the life of celibacy may be lonely but as a priest you are so busy that really your never alone. I also stated that at least 10 of the "married priests" in the latin rite who convereted from Anglicanism said that they are grateful to the church but these two vocations can not be lived out successfully because you can not give of your time.

The Church needed to start somewhere, When Christ founded a church most men were already married. Though that was a tradition for the first 1000 years there must be a reason why the Church felt a need to make the change.

Finally, my answer to his last claim is that in order to conform our lives to Christ we must be Christ like who too was celibate. The priesthood is about Jesus Christ and to be more like him we should live in the state of being he lived.

What else can I say?

Thanks.

Edward[/quote]
The Church changed because many priests couldn't keep it in their pants and were jumping into bed with all sorts of people. They were sick of their clergy impregnating half of Europe so they introduced mandatory celibacy.