Stealing Music

[curtins]

I know its stealing to download off Kazza or similar filesharing software stuff/ or to copy cds that arnt urs etc etc .... I stopped doing all that a while back. However, I 've seen that listed as a mortal sin. But wouldn't it be a venial sin cause like one song costs 99 cents so thats like stealing something of small value (a venial sin- like stealing a piece of candy)?

any thoughts?

[HisChild]

It's still breaking one of the 10 Commandments. . . that's like saying 'but I only lusted after her/him in my heart, so it's not as bad, because we never did anything'. Jesus did say that if you've lusted after her/him in your heart, it's still adultery. Capisce?

[Kosh]

I highly doubt that sealing a song is a mortal sin.

[Theologian in Training]

The logic of that argument though is that because it is not that expensive it is not considered stealing. Well, what if you were to steal a candy bar or a pack of gum is that not considered stealing because it doesn't cost that much? Price has nothing to do with the gravity of the sin.

[N/A Gone]

yea, I'd need to argue that as well. I am one of the people who dont have much of a problem with it. I think condeming others of it as a mortal sin is more of a sin

[curtins]

no dont get me wrong I'm not trying to say its not a sin, or that its right, or that people should do it, or that its not stealing. It is stealing. It is sinning.


I have seen an examination of conscience (maybe some of u are familiar with it- Fr. Z's) that says stealing things of great value (robbing a bank?) is mortal sin while stealing things of less value (like a piece of candy) is venial sin. However, it says stealing music like the above mentioned ways is a mortal sin. But the song has the same value as the bar of candy.

is this making any sense??

btw im just wondering, I'm not actually gonna do it.

[Kosh]

Well...I don't get how you can think that stealing a song completely separates you from god and removes the grace of God from your soul. It just seems that it isn't a grave matter.

[HisChild]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1153258' date='Dec 31 2006, 09:24 PM']
The logic of that argument though is that because it is not that expensive it is not considered stealing. Well, what if you were to steal a candy bar or a pack of gum is that not considered stealing because it doesn't cost that much? Price has nothing to do with the gravity of the sin.
[/quote]


And that is where I was coming from, Father. I think once people start justifying sin, because it is 'not as bad' as the next sin. . .then it stops being sin in their eyes altogether, which is a danger.

I know you mention, curtins, that you still find this hypothetical act a sin. . .but I've seen it carried too far. Not in music, or in monetary value, mind you, but in more grave issues. 'It's ok you aborted, because your amniocentesis showed the possibilty of a birth defect'. Yes, that's a stretch from what is mentioned here. . .but truth stops being black and white, and sort of 'greys out' in some people's eyes, in that many things become justified in individual's eyes. . .like a 'personal credo.' Or a justification of mortal vs venial. When in fact ALL sin separates us from our Lord, and that really should be the point, not the degree of separation.

Carp, it's difficult in this medium to sometimes articulate the point. . .I just hope it makes sense.

God bless you. Happy New Year!

[Kosh]

Well there IS a difference between the effect of a mortal sin and venial sin on the soul. This isn't to suggest that stealing music isn't bad, but I don't think its a sufficiently grave matter to be a mortal sin.

[curtins]

I completely agree with what you're saying- all sin should be avoided,

However, I just see a discrepency here and even tho all sin is bad, theres a big diff between weakening ur relationship with God (Venial) and outright destroying it (mortal)

[HisChild]

And again, it's really a matter for the Church to declare that definitively, but as Father said. . . "Price has nothing to do with the gravity of the sin."

[curtins]

ok then that would be in conflict with that examination of conscience I'm reffering to, unless I'm reading it wrong.

has the church declared deffinatly on this or come close to it?


but would'nt price have something to do with it? I mean surely stealing a peice of candy is not grave matter where as stealing a car would be....

Edited January 1, 2007 by curtins

[Theologian in Training]

Ok, let me explain where I am coming from. I know I may have said this before, but I want you to understand the way I see it. Way back before I was a seminarian and before stealing music, movies, videos, and any other digital theft became popular, I used to do it all. I had thousands of songs, hundred of shows, movies, and the like. It was only when I got back from spending time with the Franciscans that I started to question whether I should continue holding on to all of this stuff. I mean, including the programs, I had to have had maybe over $2,000 worth of digital stuff.

I went to confession that weekend and talked to the priest who also happened to be my unofficial spiritual director as well. I explained to him that I would not get rid nor destroy any of the DVD's or Cd's I made unless he made it my penance, which he did.

I went home and had a very very hard time trying to destroy all of this stuff...it was some of the greatest stuff I (thought) I would ever own. Anyway, I had a stack of CD's in my hand, and looked at them all and slowly started to break them in half. I got to the ones that I really really liked and I heard in my mind "I have no love for half-hearted men." It was all it took for me to destroy everything else.

What I came to realize was that no matter how I tried justifying it, I was actually stealing and guilty of great theft. I ripped off movie directors, musicians, programmers, and the like and I had no right to do so...and I only did so because I could. Maybe I had enough money maybe I didn't, but that is irrelevant because even if I did have the money I was getting it free so what did I care.

I also came to realize that it was no different then going into a store and taking a CD because I wanted it. Just because I did not get caught or just because it is not considered to be worth that much means nothing from the fact that I digitally stole that CD.

Perhaps, to you, it does not seem like a mortal sin, because it does not seem like stealing, but theft is theft whether it is physically taking something in your hand or illegally downloading it onto your computer because you are taking something that is not yours and you are not paying for it nor do you intend to. Last time I checked that was stealing.

I know some of you may not agree, but that is the way I saw it and the way I explain it to others when they ask me the same.

God Bless and Happy New Year!!!!

[quote name='curtins' post='1153297' date='Jan 1 2007, 01:04 AM']
I completely agree with what you're saying- all sin should be avoided,

However, I just see a discrepency here and even tho all sin is bad, theres a big diff between weakening ur relationship with God (Venial) and outright destroying it (mortal)
[/quote]

Because you are not sure and you are still trying to form your conscience with regard to this particular situation...

[HisChild]

The only 'reference' I can give you, at this hour, is this:

In the Catechism, it states:

[quote]1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.
[/quote]


Moral law is that it's wrong to d/l a song that does not belong to you. You are taking from the hard working people of the music industry. It doesn't matter that you justify it by stating that it's only a dollar. One may say that it's venial because it is a less serious matter. OK, let's go with that and say it's venial, nevermind that the 10 commandments says that stealing is a mortal sin . .. and doesn't differentiate between the values of the theft.

However. . .lest one think it isn't 'all that bad':


[quote]1863 Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul's progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. [b]Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. [/b] (emphasis mine). . . While he is in the flesh, man cannot help but have at least some light sins. But do not despise these sins which we call "light": if you take them for light when you weigh them, tremble when you count them. A number of light objects makes a great mass; a number of drops fills a river; a number of grains makes a heap. What then is our hope? Above all, confession.[135][/quote]

Food for thought?

Hope that helps. . btw, I'm not saying that, in and of itself, stealing a song worth a dollar will send anyone to hell. . .but the thinking of 'well it's only a dollar, so it's ok'. . .leads one down a slippery slope that, if unchecked, can lead to much more gravity. Because rarely is such a case one in a vacuum. And again, it does separate you from God, even if only by degrees.

[xTrishaxLynnx]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1153317' date='Jan 1 2007, 12:29 AM']
Ok, let me explain where I am coming from. I know I may have said this before, but I want you to understand the way I see it. Way back before I was a seminarian and before stealing music, movies, videos, and any other digital theft became popular, I used to do it all. I had thousands of songs, hundred of shows, movies, and the like. It was only when I got back from spending time with the Franciscans that I started to question whether I should continue holding on to all of this stuff. I mean, including the programs, I had to have had maybe over $2,000 worth of digital stuff.

I went to confession that weekend and talked to the priest who also happened to be my unofficial spiritual director as well. I explained to him that I would not get rid nor destroy any of the DVD's or Cd's I made unless he made it my penance, which he did.

I went home and had a very very hard time trying to destroy all of this stuff...it was some of the greatest stuff I (thought) I would ever own. Anyway, I had a stack of CD's in my hand, and looked at them all and slowly started to break them in half. [b]I got to the ones that I really really liked and I heard in my mind "I have no love for half-hearted men." It was all it took for me to destroy everything else. [/b]

What I came to realize was that no matter how I tried justifying it, I was actually stealing and guilty of great theft. I ripped off movie directors, musicians, programmers, and the like and I had no right to do so...and I only did so because I could. Maybe I had enough money maybe I didn't, but that is irrelevant because even if I did have the money I was getting it free so what did I care.

I also came to realize that it was no different then going into a store and taking a CD because I wanted it. Just because I did not get caught or just because it is not considered to be worth that much means nothing from the fact that I digitally stole that CD.

Perhaps, to you, it does not seem like a mortal sin, because it does not seem like stealing, but theft is theft whether it is physically taking something in your hand or illegally downloading it onto your computer because you are taking something that is not yours and you are not paying for it nor do you intend to. Last time I checked that was stealing.

I know some of you may not agree, but that is the way I saw it and the way I explain it to others when they ask me the same.

God Bless and Happy New Year!!!!
Because you are not sure and you are still trying to form your conscience with regard to this particular situation...
[/quote]


When I read the bolded section.. I said... [b]YES!!! [/b] (out loud)


For the longest time I never confessed illegally obtaining music and the like... it never really occurred to me to confess it. Then one day before confession, as I was doing my examination of conscience, it came to mind and after going over it for a while in my mind (more like arguing with myself about it) I decided I must confess it. So, with that decided, I thought - what am I going to do with the thousands of songs I have? I did not delete them... at least not [i]before [/i] confession. I believe it was that evening, when I got home after confession, remembering my Act of Contrition, that I selected the entire folder that my music was in and hit "delete". I will admit I hesitated to hit "yes" when asked if I was sure. Nevertheless, it's gone, and so is the program I downloaded it all with. It actually feels quite good, and I get by just fine with the songs I have on my computer, most of which I got from the CDs we have here in the house.