Evictions & European Monasteries

[Chiquitunga]

From the Carthusian Nuns thread:

[quote name='Emile James' post='1163826' date='Jan 13 2007, 05:38 PM']
photo of the expulsion of the Carthusians at the Grande Chartreuse by the Government and Miltia of France in 1903, in the development of the Law 1905, of suppresiion of all Monasteries/abbeys that are not socially beneficially, reasonable,republican or worthy of existence

only 100 years ago
[img]http://www.temoinsdejehovah.org/informations/Loi1905/Chartreux.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

Do you guys think things like this could possibly start happening again in Europe, with the rise of Islam and secularization of the gov't and people? Maybe not just now, but in the not too distant future?

Here in America, this is pretty unlikely, as we have many laws regarding private property - but Europe is generally more socialist, in different ways, I believe .. Not that they are all socialist gov'ts, but generally speaking..

Of course, Christianity these days needs the blood of the martyrs for the conversion of the world ..

But what do you guys think? are evitions like this possibly likely for the future of Europe, especially for instance, France or Spain .. ?

[-I---Love]

It is an interesting subject I sadly no nothing about. One would have to know the exact legal status for Churches in each dif. country.

I know from reading about Poland and JPII that in Poland churchs have little to no legal rights. That is a BIG problem that JPII and the faithful of Poland consistently battled and I would surmise still do.

[Totus Tuus]

I believe it could be possible in America as well, and certainly in Europe especially with population increasing for Muslim families and decreasing for European families (because of abortion and contraception).

As for America: Are you aware that there is a fight to impose lobbyist regulations on Catholic churches? I think we have a lot to consider in coming years.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Margaret Clare' post='1173783' date='Jan 23 2007, 02:48 AM']
From the Carthusian Nuns thread:
Do you guys think things like this could possibly start happening again in Europe, with the rise of Islam and secularization of the gov't and people? Maybe not just now, but in the not too distant future?

Here in America, this is pretty unlikely, as we have many laws regarding private property - but Europe is generally more socialist, in different ways, I believe .. Not that they are all socialist gov'ts, but generally speaking..

Of course, Christianity these days needs the blood of the martyrs for the conversion of the world ..

But what do you guys think? are evictions like this possibly likely for the future of Europe, especially for instance, France or Spain .. ?
[/quote]
Absolutely.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='-I---Love' post='1173926' date='Jan 23 2007, 10:50 AM']
It is an interesting subject I sadly no nothing about. One would have to know the exact legal status for Churches in each dif. country.

I know from reading about Poland and JPII that in Poland churchs have little to no legal rights. That is a BIG problem that JPII and the faithful of Poland consistently battled and I would surmise still do.
[/quote] Hey, thanks for the reply .. Okay .. so one must know the legal status for churches in each country .. That's so sad for Poland ..

[quote name='Totus Tuus' post='1173932' date='Jan 23 2007, 11:05 AM']
I believe it could be possible in America as well, and certainly in Europe especially with population increasing for Muslim families and decreasing for European families (because of abortion and contraception). [/quote] Yeah ... but I definitely don't think the threat of this in America is anywhere as great as in Europe. This is what my mother is often telling me. Generally speaking, European gov'ts are much different.

[quote]As for America: Are you aware that there is a fight to impose lobbyist regulations on Catholic churches? I think we have a lot to consider in coming years.[/quote] I was asking my mom about this, and she was saying that has to do with the Church lobbying for certain political parties. If they do that, then the gov't can say they're not a charitable org. anymore, but a political one. Catholic Answers had difficulty with this, as they published the Voter's Guide for Serious Catholics - which was awesome. They definitely weren't lobbying for a specific political party, but just stating the teaching of the Church on specific issues. But what they did was, Catholic Answers now has a branch called Catholic Answers Action that can support different parties, because it's not a charitable org - just supported by donations - just you can get the tax deductible thing.

But yeah, here in a America, things are definitely difficult for Catholics, and probably getting worse, especially the media. But still, rights and private property are at least protected to a much greater extent than many Euro. countries. It's great our country was founded on these principles.

But Europe these days ... It's so sad with so much history .. I remember St. Teresa wrote in her biography, that she was thinking of going off somewhere like Africa, when she was a child, to be martryed and immediately go to Heaven .. Now the threat is really in her own country ..

[she_who_is_not]

When China rules the world....

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='Margaret Clare' post='1174014' date='Jan 23 2007, 01:36 PM']
... But what they did was, Catholic Answers now has a branch called Catholic Answers Action that can support different parties, because it's not a charitable org - just supported by donations - just you can get the tax deductible thing.
[/quote] Just you [i]can't[/i] get the tax deductible thing, I mean.


[quote name='she_who_is_not' post='1174048' date='Jan 23 2007, 02:38 PM']
When China rules the world....
[/quote] What do you mean?


But seriously, everyone, we have to triumph over the growth of Islam and over secularism and materialism! Please God ...

When I was visiting the Carmel that was in Schenectady, NY, the Mother there, Mother John of the Cross, was saying something like - Catholicism is at it's best when we have to fight for it .. And then she was telling me about the conditions in China. I agree with her, we're the most fervent when there's a threat - otherwise, it's incredibly easy to become tepid.

[cmotherofpirl]

I doubt it will be China.

[Totus Tuus]

I went to a talk by Father Joseph Fessio last night. He said there are people who actually think that there is a good chance of Muslims dominating China in the near future, but he said there is not really any substantial proof at the moment.

His talk was on Pope Benedict XVI's papacy and the issues he is facing in the world and how he is dealing with them. A primary issue, of course, is the Muslims (as everyone knows).

Anyway, more on that later perhaps. In the meantime here is a little bit about the lobbyist issue I was referring to. I don't know if it's the same thing Margaret Clare is talking about but it sounds like it probably is. Go down to number 3 at this link to read more:

[url="http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:Tlt0TarHBLgJ:www.theconservativevoice.com/forum/read.html%3Fid%3D3988+%22Catholic+church%22+%2B+%22lobbyist+regulations%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1&client=firefox-a"]http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:Tlt0T...lient=firefox-a[/url]

Lauren

Edited January 24, 2007 by Totus Tuus

[she_who_is_not]

[quote name='she_who_is_not' post='1174048' date='Jan 23 2007, 03:38 PM']
When China rules the world....
[/quote]
MC,
Have no earthly idea what I was referencing here. I've got the flu and must have been posting in delirium.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='she_who_is_not' post='1174811' date='Jan 24 2007, 01:10 PM']
MC,
Have no earthly idea what I was referencing here. I've got the flu and must have been posting in delirium.
[/quote]

Hi! No problem! Hope you get better! ... ... ...

Hey guys, this is great news about contemplative vocations increasing in Italy! Just linking the thread here - [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=63593"]Nun's the Word[/url]

Edited January 25, 2007 by Margaret Clare

[batteddy]

Meh, I trust that the Church will be fine, He said it would be.

I hope Islam triumps over Secularism in Europe, would serve them right for abandoning everything...and I certainly support a conservative Islam a lot more than a decadent, secularized, atheist Europe.

But then China will defeat Islam.

I doubt Islam will become popular in China. I find it much more likely that the True Church will find in China fresh, fertile soil in which to spread the seeds of faith, and in 200 years, China may rule the world...but a Christian China. And I'd be fine with that.

Western Civilization is coming to an end.

But the Church, though she was inextricably united to it for a long time, is not [i]necessarily[/i] tied to Europe and the West (it started in the Middle East afterall)

Western Civilization as we know it today was her beloved child, and she will fight for it to the end. It has done many great and wonderful things. But it is dying fast. But I trust she will find new children in the rising East, a new son in China, and so perhaps it's best that the Islam destroy the West. The West has gotten self-destructive, lets hope it is put out of its misery soon. Still, any mother loves her child, and we will never forget the beautiful things Europe gave us and will mourn her.

But the future is in the East, and there is nothing wrong with that if we trust Christ, for if the East is the future...then there the Church shall be found, and I hope bloom.

Edited January 25, 2007 by batteddy

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' post='1174724' date='Jan 24 2007, 11:19 AM']
I went to a talk by Father Joseph Fessio last night. He said there are people who actually think that there is a good chance of Muslims dominating China in the near future, but he said there is not really any substantial proof at the moment.

His talk was on Pope Benedict XVI's papacy and the issues he is facing in the world and how he is dealing with them. A primary issue, of course, is the Muslims (as everyone knows).

Anyway, more on that later perhaps. In the meantime here is a little bit about the lobbyist issue I was referring to. I don't know if it's the same thing Margaret Clare is talking about but it sounds like it probably is. Go down to number 3 at this link to read more:

[url="http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:Tlt0TarHBLgJ:www.theconservativevoice.com/forum/read.html%3Fid%3D3988+%22Catholic+church%22+%2B+%22lobbyist+regulations%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1&client=firefox-a"]http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:Tlt0T...lient=firefox-a[/url]

Lauren
[/quote] Hey, thanks for sharing this info! Wow you went to see Fr. Fessio last night? That's great! Yeah, I don't know any details of this lobbyist thing myself, but my mom does. Thanks for the info on it!

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='batteddy' post='1175332' date='Jan 24 2007, 09:22 PM']... But the future is in the East, and there is nothing wrong with that if we trust Christ, for if the East is the future...then there the Church shall be found, and I hope bloom.
[/quote]

Hey, thanks for the reply! You have a lot of great insights! This reminds me of the article titled something like the Pope goes East to fight the West? in the magazine, The Catholic World Report.

This also reminds me of talking with a Sister of Bethlehem, Sr. Maria D'aire at Les Montsvoirons in 2003. I was just starting, and didn't know too much about Church History and religious life - not that I really know very much now. But this is a big part of the charism of the Monastic Family of Bethlehem - the East - that Christ came from the East - and the Eastern desert Fathers and so on. But still they are both Western and Eastern - more Western probably. Sr. Marie was saying to me though, that this way something JPII particularly praised about their order.

It's even more interesting to add to this, that this is a great order coming out of France. And this order is growing! Same with the Community of St. John. The West has a lot going for it. I think God has planted the seed in many young hearts, but now it is up to us to persevere, and then let's see what happens with the West .. And look at so many orders in the West these days, like the PCPAs and so forth ..

Edited January 25, 2007 by Margaret Clare

[batteddy]

My point is that if we are going to truly be catholic, universal, the fall of the West shouldn't matter to us.

We should think of Christianity as our heritage...not anything based on the culture we accidentally happened to be raised in, the continent our ancestors are from, or the color of our skin.

I want the [u]Church[/u] to survive. I don't care about anything else. I don't care about the survival of "my" caucasian race. I don't care about the survival of "my" anglo-american culture. I don't care about my family name being preserved.

I sometimes get scary feelings of "white nationalism" when Catholics start acting concerned about Islam overrunning Europe. Yes, there are a lot of great churches that stand to be destroyed. It's sad...but that's just architecture (though I would certainly start shipping the Relics somewhere safer if things get much worse, and perhaps as much of the art as is moveable). Those things [i]essential[/i] to the faith will be preserved somewhere in the world. In South America. And the faith is rising in Africa. And I bet it will rise in the East.

I don't really care about preserving the "european cultural heritage" or anything, and it disturbs me a little to see the Pope fighting for it...because I wonder what, for example, the syro-malabar catholics think of that. The Pope is the spokesman of Christianity, not "european civilization". Yeah, it was great in its heyday, but if it's over, it's over. I feel no necessary attachment to it, and no need to fight for it just because of the circumstances of my birth. We'll never forget what it gave us; the art, the Saints, the literature, the theology, the science, the technology, the philosophy, the politics. But it's time to move on. Europe-America has left its mark, no doubt, for better or worse, on all parts of the world. If it dies now, I don't care.

Edited January 25, 2007 by batteddy

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='batteddy' post='1175857' date='Jan 25 2007, 01:17 PM']
My point is that if we are going to truly be catholic, universal, the fall of the West shouldn't matter to us.

[color="#3366FF"]Ah, thats fine unless you happen to live there.[/color]

We should think of Christianity as our heritage...not anything based on the culture we accidentally happened to be raised in, the continent our ancestors are from, or the color of our skin.

[color="#3333FF"]My heritage and ancestors IS christian.[/color]


I sometimes get scary feelings of "white nationalism" when Catholics start acting concerned about Islam overrunning Europe. Yes, there are a lot of great churches that stand to be destroyed. It's sad...but that's just architecture (though I would certainly start shipping the Relics somewhere safer if things get much worse, and perhaps as much of the art as is moveable).
[color="#3333FF"]
Forget about the architecture, what about all the people?? Tell me how free christians are going to be in an islamic europe??[/color]

I don't really care about preserving the "european cultural heritage" or anything, and it disturbs me a little to see the Pope fighting for it...because I wonder what, for example, the syro-malabar catholics think of that. The Pope is the spokesman of Christianity, not "european civilization". Yeah, it was great in its heyday, but if it's over, it's over. I feel no necessary attachment to it, and no need to fight for it just because of the circumstances of my birth. We'll never forget what it gave us; the art, the Saints, the literature, the theology, the science, the technology, the philosophy, the politics. But it's time to move on. Europe-America has left its mark, no doubt, for better or worse, on all parts of the world. If it dies now, I don't care.

[color="#3333FF"]You should care if you claim to be catholic.
Catholics are traditionalists. You are blithely throwing away 2000 years of christianity by that statement.[/color]
[/quote]

[Piamaria]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' post='1174724' date='Jan 24 2007, 09:19 AM']
I went to a talk by Father Joseph Fessio last night. He said there are people who actually think that there is a good chance of Muslims dominating China in the near future, but he said there is not really any substantial proof at the moment.

His talk was on Pope Benedict XVI's papacy and the issues he is facing in the world and how he is dealing with them. A primary issue, of course, is the Muslims (as everyone knows).

Lauren
[/quote]

I know this is off topic but isn't Fr. Fessio Awesome. I have Sister-friend in at USF and you wouldn't believe how much Fr. Fessio has been persecuted for his fidelity and orthodoxy.

Back to topic.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='batteddy' post='1175857' date='Jan 25 2007, 12:17 PM']
My point is that if we are going to truly be catholic, universal, the fall of the West shouldn't matter to us.

We should think of Christianity as our heritage...not anything based on the culture we accidentally happened to be raised in, the continent our ancestors are from, or the color of our skin.

I want the [u]Church[/u] to survive. I don't care about anything else. I don't care about the survival of "my" caucasian race. I don't care about the survival of "my" anglo-american culture. I don't care about my family name being preserved.

I sometimes get scary feelings of "white nationalism" when Catholics start acting concerned about Islam overrunning Europe. Yes, there are a lot of great churches that stand to be destroyed. It's sad...but that's just architecture (though I would certainly start shipping the Relics somewhere safer if things get much worse, and perhaps as much of the art as is moveable). Those things [i]essential[/i] to the faith will be preserved somewhere in the world. In South America. And the faith is rising in Africa. And I bet it will rise in the East.

I don't really care about preserving the "european cultural heritage" or anything, and it disturbs me a little to see the Pope fighting for it...because I wonder what, for example, the syro-malabar catholics think of that. The Pope is the spokesman of Christianity, not "european civilization". Yeah, it was great in its heyday, but if it's over, it's over. I feel no necessary attachment to it, and no need to fight for it just because of the circumstances of my birth. We'll never forget what it gave us; the art, the Saints, the literature, the theology, the science, the technology, the philosophy, the politics. But it's time to move on. Europe-America has left its mark, no doubt, for better or worse, on all parts of the world. If it dies now, I don't care.
[/quote] Actually, you make a very good point. It's the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ that matters, not preserving a culture. I totally get what you're saying. Otherwise, it almost does seem like "white nationalism" or something like that.

But what cmotherofpirl is saying is totally correct - [i]hello, what about the people?[/i] Your statement in that you don't care about the West is totally uncatholic. Preserving a culture of Christianity is incredibly important - and it is a very great means to serve an end - that is the salvation of peoples' souls. And I totally agree with her statement that you are blithely throwing away 2000 years of Christianity by that statement.

I do totally get your point - the Church is our spiritual heritage that greatly transends any human culture - we are fighting for THE CHURCH to survive.

But listen, preserving the European culture of Christianity is important. The Holy Father knows He is not the spokesman for European Civilization, but for the Church. He acts in the mind of the Church in trying to preserve Christian Europe, and we shouldn't question it.

We talk about things these days like the culture of life, etc. Preserving a culture is preserving the how people live their lives. I think it's incredibly important to try to wake the West up out of their spiritual death, and a huge part of their identity throughout the centuries that has been fought even to death by their own ancestors that they are mindlessly throwing away, for nothing. It's so sad that a whole continent steeped in Christianity for centuries would spiritually die because of materialism and moderism, etc. We can't say we don't care about that. Holy Mother Church cares for all her children.

I don't think the Holy Father's focus on the West is taking away from Christianity growing in the East. I think the Eastern churches care very much about the welfare of the people in the West. I don't think they feel neglected by the Holy Father trying to preserve the Christian heritage of Europe - I just really don't think so. Last year I spent several months with some CMC sisters ( Carmelites )of the Syro-Malabar rite. They care very much about the West, and are spread all over Europe and America, mostly as teachers or nurses.

Yes, what is important is the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, eternal life. But preserving the European culture of Christianity is a means to serve this end, for a whole continent of people.

Edited January 25, 2007 by Margaret Clare

[Chiquitunga]

But again, batteddy does make a good point, even he made some uncatholic statements. I think he's talking generally here though. I mean if a country like France has become so modernistic and doesn't even double it's own population, they almost deserve to be taken over by the Muslims. The Church definitely has to try to stop this, and is, and so many great orders like Bethlehem & St. John are still coming out of France, but if Christianity is dying out there and in Europe in general, that's their problem. It's their choice. As Jesus said, if they do not welcome you, shake the dust from your feet. I don't mean that I don't care about their spiritual death and the end of a great Catholic culture, but you get what I mean. I think that's along the same lines as what batteddy is getting at (though I would never say, I don't care, I'm very much in agreement with cmotherofpirl on this). But let the Word of God fall on good soil then. The Church remains, and the gates of Hell will not prevail against Her.

But actually, I started this thread because I'm wondering about this evictions thing, and the future of European monasteries, particulary France, really. I am wondering if it would not be a good idea to consider joining a monastery in particularly France, as it could possibly become very insecure in days to come there. The Sisters of Bethlehem have several monasteries in France. The Carthusians have two. Anyway, everything's up to the Lord. Maybe His will is actually for me to be with the Poor Clares right here in Lemont, who are awesome ...

[quote name='Pia' post='1175949' date='Jan 25 2007, 02:31 PM']
I know this is off topic but isn't Fr. Fessio Awesome. I have Sister-friend in at USF and you wouldn't believe how much Fr. Fessio has been persecuted for his fidelity and orthodoxy.

Back to topic.
[/quote] No problem for being off topic. I've never heard him speak, but heard he is great. That's cool how Lauren went to see him.

Edited January 25, 2007 by Margaret Clare

[philosophette]

My only concern in the US would be the improper use of "immanent domain" which has been used by Corps like Wal-Mart to seize property.