Evictions & European Monasteries

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='Margaret Clare' post='1176041' date='Jan 25 2007, 04:14 PM']
But again, batteddy does make a good point, even he made some uncatholic statements. I think he's talking generally here though. I mean if a country like France has become so modernistic and doesn't even [i][b]maintain[/b] [/i] (I mean, not double ) it's own population, they almost deserve to be taken over by the Muslims ...
[/quote]

[Chiquitunga]

But again, I wanted to say, I definitely care and pray that France and all of Europe is not taken over my the Muslims. My gosh, that would be terrible! Actually during the French Revolution all the Carthusian houses of nuns were closed in the late 1700's. But then in 1816 there was a revival, and now there are 2 houses in France, 2 in Italy, 1 in Spain, and now actually a foundation in South Korea ..

[batteddy]

[quote]And I totally agree with her statement that you are blithely throwing away 2000 years of Christianity by that statement.[/quote]

No. The theology, prayer, literature, history, liturgy etc. of those 2000 years would be preserved. Just not a certain locality, style of dress accidental to religion, languages etc. Everyone dies. Is Christianity therefore "untraditional" because its current followers have only been around (at the oldest) about 100 years? No. The traditional IDEAS would survive. But I don't think the geographic location or race of the people has anything to do with tradition. Afterall, we don't speak Old English anymore even though we did 1200 years ago. Therefore, I don't really care if modern English disappears either.

[quote]But listen, preserving the European culture of Christianity is important. The Holy Father knows He is not the spokesman for European Civilization, but for the Church. He acts in the mind of the Church in trying to preserve Christian Europe, and we shouldn't question it. [/quote]

There is hardly a "christian europe" anymore. The center-of-mass of Catholicism is now Central and South America (though there is some shoring up against the evangelicals we need to do there). Christian Europe cannot be saved because Christendom has ceased to exist and Europe is heavily Secular. We would need to RE-create a Christian Europe. But is RE-creating the past really worth our energy, or if the circumstances are more favorable in South America and Africa...shouldn't we concentrate our energies there? Of course, the Church would mission everywhere, even Europe. But perhaps its time to admit it is (in the general sense, not in the case of the individual souls) a lost cause and find a new culture.

There is nothing essential about the culture. Obviously, Catholic culture has changed many times from Roman, to Midieval Germanic, to Italian Renaissance, to heavily Hispanic. If it's next stage is Chinese, or African...why hold on to it? When the barbarians invaded Rome, the Church didn't fight desperately to preserve Latin as the vernacular, keep togas as everyday clothes, or demand that Roman architecture be the style. So when Muslim hordes enter Europe...well, we'll try to convert them while also investing in more promising parts of the world...but I don't think we should spend our time trying to save something dying. Decadence means decay. Rome fell, the Church survived and built a new midieval germanic culture. If Modern Europe dies...well, we'll be able to build a culture out of whatever comes next or else find one somewhere else. At a certain point it is Europe's choice...as you said, shake the dust off your shoes. It seems that fig tree is cursed to wither.

Also, about the "people" being hurt...the presumption is that Europe would BECOME Muslim. The "people" left would be largely secularists and would die out quickly due to their birth control.

I'd rather have a Europe full of devout muslims than devout european atheists.

Edited January 26, 2007 by batteddy

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='batteddy' post='1177084' date='Jan 26 2007, 07:16 PM']
No. The theology, prayer, literature, history, liturgy etc. of those 2000 years would be preserved. Just not a certain locality, style of dress accidental to religion, languages etc. Everyone dies. Is Christianity therefore "untraditional" because its current followers have only been around (at the oldest) about 100 years? No. The traditional IDEAS would survive. But I don't think the geographic location or race of the people has anything to do with tradition. Afterall, we don't speak Old English anymore even though we did 1200 years ago. Therefore, I don't really care if modern English disappears either.



There is hardly a "christian europe" anymore. The center-of-mass of Catholicism is now Central and South America (though there is some shoring up against the evangelicals we need to do there). Christian Europe cannot be saved because Christendom has ceased to exist and Europe is heavily Secular. We would need to RE-create a Christian Europe. But is RE-creating the past really worth our energy, or if the circumstances are more favorable in South America and Africa...shouldn't we concentrate our energies there? Of course, the Church would mission everywhere, even Europe. But perhaps its time to admit it is (in the general sense, not in the case of the individual souls) a lost cause and find a new culture.

There is nothing essential about the culture. Obviously, Catholic culture has changed many times from Roman, to Midieval Germanic, to Italian Renaissance, to heavily Hispanic. If it's next stage is Chinese, or African...why hold on to it? When the barbarians invaded Rome, the Church didn't fight desperately to preserve Latin as the vernacular, keep togas as everyday clothes, or demand that Roman architecture be the style. So when Muslim hordes enter Europe...well, we'll try to convert them while also investing in more promising parts of the world...but I don't think we should spend our time trying to save something dying. Decadence means decay. Rome fell, the Church survived and built a new midieval germanic culture. If Modern Europe dies...well, we'll be able to build a culture out of whatever comes next or else find one somewhere else. At a certain point it is Europe's choice...as you said, shake the dust off your shoes. It seems that fig tree is cursed to wither.

Also, about the "people" being hurt...the presumption is that Europe would BECOME Muslim. The "people" left would be largely secularists and would die out quickly due to their birth control.

I'd rather have a Europe full of devout muslims than devout european atheists.
[/quote]
Praise God its in His hands and certainly not yours! How terrible!!!

[Chiquitunga]

This is off topic, but cmotherofpirl, I absolutely love your signature! The prayer in it is beautiful! St Patrick, pray for us! and pray for Ireland & all of Europe!

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='batteddy' post='1177084' date='Jan 26 2007, 06:16 PM']No. The theology, prayer, literature, history, liturgy etc. of those 2000 years would be preserved. Just not a certain locality, style of dress accidental to religion, languages etc. Everyone dies. Is Christianity therefore "untraditional" because its current followers have only been around (at the oldest) about 100 years? No. The traditional IDEAS would survive. But I don't think the geographic location or race of the people has anything to do with tradition. Afterall, we don't speak Old English anymore even though we did 1200 years ago. Therefore, I don't really care if modern English disappears either.[/quote] Yeah, I understand what you're saying.
[quote]
There is hardly a "christian europe" anymore. The center-of-mass of Catholicism is now Central and South America (though there is some shoring up against the evangelicals we need to do there).[/quote] Yes, you're right there is, as the Protestants have a lot of missions themselves. And this can be rather confusing for someone just coming into Christianity, as Christ prayed that we may be one, and yet, we are not at all.
[quote]Christian Europe cannot be saved because Christendom has ceased to exist and Europe is heavily Secular. We would need to RE-create a Christian Europe. But is RE-creating the past really worth our energy, or if the circumstances are more favorable in South America and Africa...shouldn't we concentrate our energies there? Of course, the Church would mission everywhere, even Europe. But perhaps its time to admit it is (in the general sense, not in the case of the individual souls) a lost cause and find a new culture.[/quote] Yeah, I don't know. But yeah, as you said, the Church should continue to mission anywhere. I rather believe, to be honest, that God is going to be sending something pretty soon that's going to bring everyone to their knees ...[quote]
There is nothing essential about the culture. Obviously, Catholic culture has changed many times from Roman, to Midieval Germanic, to Italian Renaissance, to heavily Hispanic. If it's next stage is Chinese, or African...why hold on to it? When the barbarians invaded Rome, the Church didn't fight desperately to preserve Latin as the vernacular, keep togas as everyday clothes, or demand that Roman architecture be the style. So when Muslim hordes enter Europe...well, we'll try to convert them while also investing in more promising parts of the world...but I don't think we should spend our time trying to save something dying. Decadence means decay. Rome fell, the Church survived and built a new midieval germanic culture. If Modern Europe dies...well, we'll be able to build a culture out of whatever comes next or else find one somewhere else. At a certain point it is Europe's choice...as you said, shake the dust off your shoes. It seems that fig tree is cursed to wither.

Also, about the "people" being hurt...the presumption is that Europe would BECOME Muslim. The "people" left would be largely secularists and would die out quickly due to their birth control.

I'd rather have a Europe full of devout muslims than devout european atheists.
[/quote] At least Muslims believe in God and try to serve Him, that is true, though they are mistaken in many ways. But I wouldn't want a continent full of extremist Muslims plotting to destroy America or Christians everywhere. But again, I really believe God is at work these days in particular to bring a stop to a lot of things, and usher in the Reign of His Beloved Son in the hearts of mankind .. Maranatha, Come Lord Jesus!

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='batteddy' post='1177084' date='Jan 26 2007, 06:16 PM']
There is nothing essential about the culture. Obviously, Catholic culture has changed many times from Roman, to Midieval Germanic, to Italian Renaissance, to heavily Hispanic.
[/quote]Yeah, I totally get what you're saying. The culture is not a part of our Faith.

But what do you think about this evictions/persecutions thing for European monasteries? I guess it's pretty likely something like this could start happening. I'm just wondering personally, if it would be a wise idea or not to join a monastery over there, if it's going to start getting pretty insecure. Though, it's up to God's will in the end .. Anyway, Jesus did warn us of persecutions ..

Edited January 27, 2007 by Margaret Clare

[batteddy]

[quote]But I wouldn't want a continent full of extremist Muslims plotting to destroy America or Christians everywhere.[/quote]

Why do you care if they're plotting to "destroy America". Let go. America was an okay place in it's heyday. But if it has internally weakened itself through decadence, perhaps it's time to jump ship. I identify with a Religion, not a Nation-State.

There already is a continent full of Muslims, basically. Though they would increase numerically through natural birth in this scenario, that would happen anyway. It's not like another billion Muslims is going to appear out of nowhere and fill up Europe that wouldn't have been born otherwise. It would merely be a geographic shift of people who were going to exist anyway somewhere. Why not Europe if Europe deserves it?

But the Muslims taking over Europe are largely moderate, not extreme. Though the less Europe-America takes Islamic culture seriously, the more radicalized they get.

As for monastery evictions, the presumption is that the monasteries would be largely abandoned by the time Muslims really could "take over" and any ones left would probably regroup somewhere else. Christians have faced Muslim takeover before. The persecutions when a minority pre-dates you in a region are much less than when the minority tries to move into YOUR region (like the Christians did with pagan Rome)

Edited January 27, 2007 by batteddy

[HisChild]

I was just going to mention something that may be off topic and isn't as intense as all the earlier posts, but earlier it was mentioned that evictions probably wouldn't happen in America? Fr Groeschel recently said to his sisters and friars that one day soon, he wouldn't see it but they would, people would 'rip the habits right off you'. (I think I got that quote right.) Now, I know that his community is either exclusively, or if not, mainly, in the US. Saying that, I'd chance it to say, if his 'prediction/prophecy' is correct, I could in fact see that happening here in the (not to distant) future.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='HisChild' post='1177666' date='Jan 27 2007, 10:16 AM']
I was just going to mention something that may be off topic and isn't as intense as all the earlier posts, but earlier it was mentioned that evictions probably wouldn't happen in America? Fr Groeschel recently said to his sisters and friars that one day soon, he wouldn't see it but they would, people would 'rip the habits right off you'. (I think I got that quote right.) Now, I know that his community is either exclusively, or if not, mainly, in the US. Saying that, I'd chance it to say, if his 'prediction/prophecy' is correct, I could in fact see that happening here in the (not to distant) future.
[/quote] Oh dear, this is not good ... But it does give us a chance to bear witness to Christ ... Our Lord did warn of persecutions ..

[VeniteAdoremus]

Maybe I see things differently because I actually live in the middle of it, but I don't see any muslims "taking over" Europe. There are quite a few moderate muslims in my country, although greatly outnumbered by the Christians (even if you only count the practising ones), and the entire culture of Western Europe is based on Christian values in such a great matter that atheists try all kinds of stuff to make people forget it (at which they continuously fail to succeed).

Last time I checked, it wasn1 the early 20th century anymore, there was freedom of religion, and no monasteries will be evicted here. Agnostics, in general, aren't anti-religion.

The Order of St. John came from Europe, just a couple of decades ago. And they're booming. There are active youth groups all over my country. The Catholic Youth Day attracted thousands (which, on a total of 16 million inhabitants, is a lot).

I know a couple of muslims, I went to school with them. The ones I was friends with I liked, the others I didn't, quite the same as other people, really. Some extremists have plans to "take over Europe", but they're not very realistic, believe me. Terrorism doesn't work except to upset us, they don't have organized military power, so that's not an option either, and we outnumber them far too much for democratic takeovers. NOTHING is happening.

We're not dying. No-one is taking us over. No-one is considering persecution. Please stop saying that, it's really terribly offensive. I'm sorry, but I'm also quite serious.

[puellapaschalis]

I'm in agreement with VA here.

Running the risk of being blunt, far too many Americans on Phatmass type before they think when it comes to what happens in Europe. Disappointingly enough, those Americans (and others, I'll be fair) who have actually spent time in Europe - say, for a term or year or so for study - are all too often the ones who shoot their mouths off, and then wave their "I've lived in Europe, I know what it's like" banner, as though that somehow might excuse their ignorance.

We are under no illusions about the threats to Christianity here. However, I for one do not appreciate people painting the picture blacker than it is. Offer up your wanhoop to Christ and let Him take it away; it doesn't belong on the internet.

It's enough to see this kind of attitude on Open Mic. For the love of God and the hope of your own salvation, keep it out of Vocation Station.

Love and prayers,

PP

[Chiquitunga]

Hi! I'm in agreement with you guys too. Please forgive me if I've sad anything offensive. I kept trying to reply to batteddy. Really, I didn't mean to say anything negative about Europe, and have no idea what I'm talking about. It is just something that's often being written about in different conservative Catholic magazines and everything.

I only went to the Srs of Bethlehem retreat in France for 1 month, and it was only in one isolated area, so I have no idea myself from my own extremely limited experience. I lived in Ireland for a year, but I found it very Catholic, and was surrounded by loving devout people. Most of my view about things going wrong in Europe really comes from my mom actually, when I suggest maybe I will join the Srs of Bethlehem or Carthusians in France. She thinks it will be insecure for me there .. But most probably it's a part of her that really doesn't want me to go that far .. I'm really relieved with the 2 recent posts actually. Sincerely, thanks. Please forgive me.

I have a friend that joined the Community of St. John and was living in France for a long time. Now she was just recently sent back to our St. John community here in Princeville, IL. Yeah, this congregation is doing awesome with vocations! So is Bethlehem!

Guys, please forgive me, again. It was my fault for putting a link to this thread in Transmundane Lane & Open Mic too. It's great to have you guys reply about this, from people that actually live there. Thanks again!

Margaret Clare

[EJames]

[quote name='Margaret Clare' post='1180715' date='Jan 30 2007, 04:41 PM']
Hi! I'm in agreement with you guys too. Please forgive me if I've sad anything offensive. I kept trying to reply to batteddy. Really, I didn't mean to say anything negative about Europe, and have no idea what I'm talking about. It is just something that's often being written about in different conservative Catholic magazines and everything.

I only went to the Srs of Bethlehem retreat in France for 1 month, and it was only in one isolated area, so I have no idea myself from my own extremely limited experience. I lived in Ireland for a year, but I found it very Catholic, and was surrounded by loving devout people. Most of my view about things going wrong in Europe really comes from my mom actually, when I suggest maybe I will join the Srs of Bethlehem or Carthusians in France. She thinks it will be insecure for me there .. But most probably it's a part of her that really doesn't want me to go that far .. I'm really relieved with the 2 recent posts actually. Sincerely, thanks. Please forgive me.

I have a friend that joined the Community of St. John and was living in France for a long time. Now she was just recently sent back to our St. John community here in Princeville, IL. Yeah, this congregation is doing awesome with vocations! So is Bethlehem!

Guys, please forgive me, again. It was my fault for putting a link to this thread in Transmundane Lane & Open Mic too. It's great to have you guys reply about this, from people that actually live there. Thanks again!

Margaret Clare
[/quote]
------------------------------

having travelled as a Canadian, all of east and West Europe, lived in France, Italy, Belgium, for 5 of the last 8 years, and the Usa for 3 years mostly,all within or near Catholic/Orthodox Communities( 3 of them as a Religious)..i will withhold my thoughts on the subject for the moment... . only to say, Parish life suffers greatly(stupidity/galacianism/abuse/heresy,protestantism), but Contemplative and 'new' communities doing quite well..many places the ashes are warm, embers burning, within the long tradition...
...one just need blow and woosh...keep in mind, on a socio-political level, Europes 'right/conservative' is our ( N.American) left/centre'..affecting a ecclesial outlook as well..
The recent Funeral of [url="http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2007/jan/07012909.html"]Abbe Pierre[/url] and thoughts on, are are GREAT example of this whole subject
...geesh,, that was with holding my thoughts!

BTW The saddest most depressing, scandalous Church/parish, experiences and loss of faith, nationalist Church attitudes etc, i ever experienced , were not in Europe... but in Quebec ,Canada.so....

this article is sorta current/relevant
--------------------------

PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 8:36 pm Post subject: Major Signs of Religious Revival Seen in France and Quebec? Reply with quote
Major Signs of Religious Revival Seen in France and Quebec

By Peter J. Smith

May 26, 2006 (LifeSiteNews.com) - France, once called the Eldest Daughter of the Church, has begun to awaken from her deep secular slumber, and so has her daughter Québec. France and Québec have been the respective leaders in the European and North American continents in the culture of death, but there are definite signs of a promising renewal. Better yet, France may even have found its champion against what Pope Benedict has called "the dictatorship of relativism."

Nicolas Sarkozy, one of the most visible public ministers of France and favorite for the 2007 presidential election, has publicly broken with the most sacred tenet of secularism by calling for the Republic to actively and publicly support religion. In a book entitled La République, les religions, l'espérance [ The Republic, the Religions, and Hope], Sarkozy makes a salient call to critically examine the legacy of secularism in France, and instead calls for an active secular government that funds the work of religion in France from funding church buildings to financial aid for clergy formation to church use of public property. Sarkozy says its time for France to revise the current 1905 law mandating total separation of church and state to renew a youth that he says have no ideals.

France is experiencing a renewal based in a reawakening of Catholic identity in its people that is large part due to the burgeoning number of renewal communities. In France, over 100 charismatic renewal communities have been founded in the last 30 years. This is giving rise to the new résistance against secularism, as the renewal congregations are drawing people to Christ by bringing this Catholic identity in their situation. In an interview with Deal Hudson of the Morely Institute for Church and Culture, Bishop Rey, one of the leaders of the renewal gave this cheerful view: "The Church is not dead; she sleeps, and it is my job to wake her."

The revival and slow turn away from secularism that is starting in France explain what is otherwise unexplainable: France has the 2nd highest birthrate in the European Union. Other Catholic countries, such as Spain and Italy, which have nearly the lowest in the European Union: 16th and 17th respectively, are moving towards more secularism, a road that France is slowly rejecting.

Now that the French are beginning to man the barricades against the "dictatorship of relativism," it may mean that there is renewal for her daughter: Quebec.
etc..

Edited February 6, 2007 by EJames