M.SIGGA Posted January 22, 2004 Posted January 22, 2004 Pollster says U.S. Catholics see themselves as Americans first WASHINGTON (CNS) -- Catholics in the United States so strongly identify themselves first as Americans before they think of themselves as Catholics that the church is in danger of losing its identity, according to pollster John Zogby. Especially among younger people, religion plays an increasingly smaller part in how people think of themselves, Zogby told an audience Jan. 20 at The Catholic University of America. The tendency of Americans to identify themselves first by nationality means, for one thing, that the "Catholic vote" politicians have sought for generations is really nonexistent, he said. "There are Catholic sensitivities," such as defensiveness when someone insults the pope, he said. But when pollsters study voter data and find that a particular candidate got "X" percentage of Catholic votes, Zogby said those voters probably made their electoral choice for reasons having little or nothing to do with religious beliefs. "They're voting as veterans, as members of an ethnic group or a union, or according to the region they live in as their primary identity," he said. "Only secondarily, or maybe even (thirdly) do they vote as Catholics." Where should a Christian draw the line between Nationalism and the Church? I know in order to be a Jwitness, one must draw a definite line and never cross it - they are even foridden to say the Pledge of Allegence. Christian History has proven in the UK, the Third Reich, France, and the Netherlands that this can yeild really bad consequences for everybody over a period of time. Personally I think I might have been guilty of this sometimes. Can someone be truly American and Catholic at the same time? For all the Protestants out there, how about you guys too.
jasJis Posted January 22, 2004 Posted January 22, 2004 (edited) Catholic first, because being Catholic is all about being the best Christian you can be. There is only 1 God. You can respect the authority or 'good' of anything else, up until it impinges upon the honor due God. Edited January 22, 2004 by jasJis
Bruce S Posted January 22, 2004 Posted January 22, 2004 That issue was settled with Kennedy, back then there WAS a concern over this one. Now Catholics are just the same as everyone... ADDICTED to governmental handouts. TAXES and more taxes. The Democrats waste in on social programs, the Republicans on wars and the militiary industrial complex. No one EVER really reduces spending.... :sadder:
PatrickRitaMichael Posted January 22, 2004 Posted January 22, 2004 I consider myself Catholic first, Indian second, and American third. No one thinks of me as an American in this country, even though I was born and brought up here, because my parents are from India and my skin is brown. So maybe it's easier for me to be Catholic first b/c I don't really belong anywhere nationality-wise (Indians think of me as American and Americans think of me as Indian).
thicke Posted January 22, 2004 Posted January 22, 2004 You've heard of "God and Country"? I think there is a reason why God is first. JMHO
Paladin D Posted January 22, 2004 Posted January 22, 2004 Catholic first, American second. Before turning to Catholicism, my Christianity was usually tied into my American heritage.
ironmonk Posted January 22, 2004 Posted January 22, 2004 That issue was settled with Kennedy, back then there WAS a concern over this one. Now Catholics are just the same as everyone... ADDICTED to governmental handouts. TAXES and more taxes. The Democrats waste in on social programs, the Republicans on wars and the militiary industrial complex. No one EVER really reduces spending.... :sadder: *Some* Catholics are.... the ones that pay attention are not. :D God Bless, Your Servant in Christ, ironmonk
Circle_Master Posted January 22, 2004 Posted January 22, 2004 God first, and part of that is in complete submission to the government - as long as it does not go against a command of God (Romans 13:1-5). They go hand in hand.
M.SIGGA Posted January 22, 2004 Author Posted January 22, 2004 I'd like to add this to the original question, is there anything the Church can say against something politically or socially that you whole-heartedly believe in, that might make you re-examine your conscience? My purpose is that it's a natural reaction to say religion/faith first, but history has proven that politics and nationalism and socialism sometimes get intertwined with religion in mass numbers of people. Maybe an example will help you out: In New Orleans in the 1950s, intergration was an example of when the Church in America finally put it's foot down. The archbishop intergrated schools, pews, and altar rails despite the fact Jim Crow laws were still inacted and before the public schools could intergrate. The bishops who intergrated told the people it was sinful to be racist, and mass numbers of Catholic parents pulled their kids out of the Catholic schools anyway and refused to attend mass at churches with blacks. Some priests and religious weren't excused from the disobedience either. These were masses of people, not 2 or 3 or 20 or 50 or 100, but whole groups of 'faithful' people. This also happened with the Baptists, Methodists, and Episcopalians. Similar examples can be noted throughout western history in the Catholic Church, and across the Protestant denominations (Nazi Germany, Revolutionary France, Latin America, etc) This is an extreme example, but if the Church said tomorrow, that it was a sin to agree to pay taxes because American tax dollars fund abortions, would you all not pay taxes (even though taxes pay for everything in society)? Any other examples are welcome too.
PatrickRitaMichael Posted January 22, 2004 Posted January 22, 2004 This is an extreme example, but if the Church said tomorrow, that it was a sin to agree to pay taxes because American tax dollars fund abortions, would you all not pay taxes (even though taxes pay for everything in society)? If the Church said it was a sin, and the Church has the power to loose and bind, wouldn't we HAVE to not pay taxes? I suppose it would be better to go to jail than sin. :unsure:
Ellenita Posted January 22, 2004 Posted January 22, 2004 Interesting debate! :D I'd say I was Christian first. In the UK, Quakers have withheld their taxes because some of the money is used to fund the military. They want a change in the law so that people can choose that their tax is spent on education and hospitals rather than the military, so they are not arguing against paying taxes per se. Of course, since they break the law by not paying their taxes they are often given prison sentences. A reporter recently interviewed several young asian men born in the UK about how they viewed themselves, muslim or British, first, and they all without hesitation said muslim and that their alliegance to Islam was greater than their alliegance to any country.
Anna Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 This is an extreme example, but if the Church said tomorrow, that it was a sin to agree to pay taxes because American tax dollars fund abortions, would you all not pay taxes (even though taxes pay for everything in society)? You're right, MSIGGA, that is an extreme example! Scriptures seem to indicate that paying taxes was ok with Jesus, and the Roman emperor was a pretty evil guy, so I don't think you'll see the pope telling us it's sinful to pay our taxes...But it might be a good excuse to use to file for an extension!!! Pax Christi. <><
Anna Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 That issue was settled with Kennedy, back then there WAS a concern over this one. And how did Kennedy settle it, do you remember? He assured the public that he would be an American FIRST, and a Catholic SECOND. Gotta love those Kennedy's.... Fortunately, he didn't then, and his family doesn't now, speak for this CATHOLIC FIRST American. Pax Christi. <><
Dave Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 My first loyalty is to God. Therefore, I'm Catholic first!
jrndveritatis Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 And how did Kennedy settle it, do you remember? He assured the public that he would be an American FIRST, and a Catholic SECOND. Gotta love those Kennedy's.... Fortunately, he didn't then, and his family doesn't now, speak for this CATHOLIC FIRST American. Heck yeah. Another good motto which sums things up pretty well: God, Country, Notre Dame.
Winchester Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 Jack "Captain Haircut" Kennedy never actually had any authority to settle anything in the Catholic Church, but he ws one heck of a charmer, old Jack.
littleflower+JMJ Posted January 24, 2004 Posted January 24, 2004 when i did a biography paper for my school history class on St. Thomas More, that was something that amazed me about him. even though he was one of the top official and the king's right hand man, his complete devotion to the Holy Mother Church never waivered. St. Thomas More was one of the important defenders for the Catholic Church against Martin Luther and King Henry VII, he was known ase, "Defender of the Faith" since he stood up for the Church. and Although St. Thomas More was a loyal servant to the King of England (he was King Henry's chief advisor and very good friend) and was the only one the King trusted and liked, thats why he was made Chancellor (second only to the king himself), but the king thought making him chancellor would make him change his views but it didnt work. anyways when it came down to bowing down to the King and recognizing him as superior to everything, even the catholic church, when the pope didn't grant him to divorce, St. Thomas More didn't yield. i loved it when he spoke the words of, "I am the King's servant, but God's first" he was beheaded because he failed to give in and sign the papers to Supremacy Act in November 1534 , and was kept in a tower away from his wife and children. he said, "I would rather go to my death than take an oath in vain." he was always sick from that cold prison and still continued to write letters for the church and to his family. he resigned when King Henry persisted with his views on marriage, etc. he loved his country but when it came down to denying his faith, he did not back down. I promised myself that I would fight for my True Church through these times of trouble. Martin Luther, ( I wrote a refutation of his doctrine), saw the Catholic Church, "through a pair of evil spectacles of ire and envy; he was prompted by the inch and tickling of vanity and vainglory". --st. thomas more when he was set to died he was amazingly calm, heres the last part of my bio I wrote a letter to my Margaret the day before I was be beheaded. I wrote to my family, knowing somehow that God was in Control. I was convicted of defying the Supremacy Act in November 1534. I did talk to my executioner though. I was at peace because I knew God would not abandon me. He asked, "Are you not afraid to die?" I replied, "No because I am to go to Heaven with my Lord!" He then said, "Why are you so arrogant as to claim you are going to heaven?" "Because," I answered, "How can Jesus refuse someone so willing to go to Him?" I even had good humor at that time saying to the executioner, "Have no fear for my neck is short!" and saying, "It would be a shame if my long beard got cut off, for it did not commit treason." I was beheaded before the 9 o'clock hour. I was instantly proclaimed a saint to the cause of Catholicism. I was beatified in 1886 and canonized in 1935. Despite the sordidness of priests and popes, I believe that the Church is pure and spiritual and will not be corrupted by Martin Luther or Henry VIII. In the end, God in my life prevailed. I cared for the King than any other pope, but I truly, truly, LOVED my Church best of all. --Bio St. Thomas More its a "I" research, which means i had to write a biography thru the eyes of St. Thomas More, which i did for my anti-catholic teacher, who LOVED IT!! i keep it always, i learned alot from st. thomas more!! :D and his looking out for me and my education because the catholic church across from my college campus is st. thomas more's catholic church!! so he did serve his country faithfully, he did alot for his country that he loved so very much to make it for the better good, (such as changing the laws to be in English instead of Latin so that people can read it and know because during the King Henry's reign 12,000 people were put to death for theft ) so he did so much for his country by his talents and writings, and was faithful to the King, but he always put his faith and family first and did it all while defending and living out his Catholic faith being loyal to God!!! ^_^
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