Carmelite Or Franciscan

[Nunsense]

I would like to understand the main differences between the contemplative Carmelites and Poor Clare nuns. I like both orders but I think that the Carmelites are more likely to be into study and reading than the Poor Clares, is that right?

Does anyone have a good understanding of how the Carmelite and Franciscan ways are the same and how they differ? I have also been looking at contemplative Benedictines and Visitation as well, but the Carmelites and Poor Clares are my favorites..... thanks for any help.

[Chiquitunga]

I would say one of the main differences is that in Franciscan spirituality there is much more adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. Generally, most Poor Clare monasteries have adoration daily, if not perpetual. Whereas, in Carmel, it is usually twice a month, like a First Friday and then another day.

Generally, Carmelites have more solitude in one's cell. But the nuns definitely do live a communal life, with normally 2 hours of recreation daily, one in the afternoon and one in the evening. The Poor Clares usually have 1 hour of daily recreation. Here is a thread I started on this a couple weeks ago : [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=62471&hl="]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...c=62471&hl=[/url]

I don't think the Carmelite way of life includes very much study or reading like the Dominicans, but they would definitely read the works of their Doctors of the Church, Holy Founders, St. Teresa & St. John of the Cross. But in the Carmelite horarium there isn't a particular time for study, just formation and spiritual reading. Whereas I think in the Benedictine, definitely Domincan, and also the Carthusian way of life, to name a few, there is a particular time for study of theology and so forth.The main thing for the Carmelites is prayer - following the spirituality of their Holy Founders.

The Franciscan Order is the Order of Penance, so there is, generally speaking, more of a spirit of penance. And then the main charism for the Franciscans is [u]poverty[/u], to follow the Poor Christ in the footsteps of Francis & Clare. Also, I know the Poor Clare Colettines generally do not wear sandals, but go barefoot most of the time, except outside I believe.

Let me quote for you something on Carmelite spirituality that I got from the Buffalo Carmelites, that I recently found:

[quote]Carmel is not, strictly speaking, a penitential Order, although penance is not lacking. No profession is mastered without discipline and self control; and Carmelites are professional pray-ers ... The purpose of their retirement, silence, solitude, and mortification is to create the only atmosphere in which loving dialogue with Christ can continually take place.[/quote]

I hope this helps. I think in the end, the nuns have many many similarities, and the most important thing in common that they have is to love Jesus I think to be able to discern which one the Lord is calling you to, as someone was saying in the other thread I started, it is whether you feel more called to follow the spirit of St. Teresa & St. John of the Cross, or St. Francis & Clare.

Edited February 7, 2007 by Margaret Clare

[Nunsense]

[quote name='Margaret Clare' post='1187070' date='Feb 6 2007, 09:48 PM']

Let me quote for you something on Carmelite spirituality that I got from the Buffalo Carmelites, that I recently found:
I hope this helps. I think in the end, the nuns have many many similarities, and the most important thing in common that they have is to love Jesus I think to be able to discern which one the Lord is calling you to, as someone was saying in the other thread I started, it is whether you feel more called to follow the spirit of St. Teresa & St. John of the Cross, or St. Francis & Clare.
[/quote]


Thank you so much. I have read the other thread now, and it helps a lot. I love both of these orders, but just can't choose between them. My baptismal name is Clare because I admired her so much, but I also love reading St Teresa's works -- what to do?

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1187105' date='Feb 7 2007, 12:23 AM']
My baptismal name is Clare because I admired her so much, but I also love reading St Teresa's works -- what to do?
[/quote] Yeah, I think a lot of people have difficulty deciding between the two. But whether you're a Poor Clare or a Carmelite, you can still love and read the works of the saints from the other order, for sure. I know of a Sr. Therese Marie in the PCCs and a Sr. Mary Clare in the Carmelites . I remember talking with a great sister too, from the St. Louis Carmel, Sr. Mary Grace, who absolutely loved St. Francis.

Also, St. Therese herself was a Franciscan tertiary before entering Carmel, believe it or not. Her parents were, and then she became one. I heard this from a tertiary from England, that actually was in the Carmel in Lisieux for 3 years in her youth. She signed her name "Therese Martin" in the member book for the Franciscan tertiaries along with her parents. :j

I almost feel it's really community by community, rather than deciding either Poor Clare or Carmelite first, before inquiring or visiting. I think the best thing is to go and view the monastery and spend time there and talk with the sisters, and see what the spirit of a particular community is like.

I do remember in visiting Carmels, that there was something I particularly loved about the Iron Mountain, MI Carmel, though I decided on Buffalo because of the beautiful Latin chant, and they are a great community too. It's just that at Iron Mountain, I got to meet all the sisters together and saw how well everyone seemed to be together. And Mother Maria of Jesus there was saying that she really feels they have a great spirit in their community, all like minded in the same goal, to give themselves to God. Without visiting, if one saw their modern building, people might not want to visit there. But inside it is another story, and pretty traditional looking. But now I think they are just about full, but I would write to see. Also, they do have a Franciscan priest as their chaplain, a very good Franciscan priest. :j

I think the thing for me though, that's making me really consider the Poor Clares again is the amount of adoration they have .. But both orders are great really, and one thing I do love about the Carmelites is how their order is in particular, Mary's order, though of course Marian devotion is really just as strong in the Poor Clares, but just the fact that Carmel is Mary's order, Mary's first order ..

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='Margaret Clare' post='1187379' date='Feb 7 2007, 10:05 AM'] Also, St. Therese herself was a Franciscan tertiary before entering Carmel, believe it or not. Her parents were, and then she became one. I heard this from a tertiary from England, that actually was in the Carmel in Lisieux for 3 years in her youth. She signed her name "Therese Martin" in the member book for the Franciscan tertiaries along with her parents. :j[/quote] Marie Francoise Therese Martin* :j

Also, [url="http://stteresamargaret.org/"]St. Teresa Margaret of the Sacred Heart, OCD[/url] had a great devotion to St. Francis. Before entering Carmel she made a retreat at La Verna, where St. Francis received the stigmata.

Also, for that matter, Jesus gave St. Margaret Mary, St. Francis as her spiritual father, because of his great devotion to the Sacred Heart. I remember reading this in a tertiary book.

I recommend for learning more about the spirit of Carmel to see the movie shown on EWTN, usually every year around the Feast of St. Teresa, [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=58176"]Teresa de Jesus[/url].

Then there's a beautiful book of messages from Our Lord to [url="http://www.tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/14/keywords/sr+mary/"]Sr. Mary of the Holy Trinity[/url], a Poor Clare. It such a beautiful book for anyone really .. It has the Imp. and everything. It is really a beautiful book ..

Then there's the "Littlest Way of Love" (in imitation of St. Therese) of [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=61428"]Sr. Maria Consolata, Poor Clare Capuchin.[/url]

Then there's the awesome mystic, [url="http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintv08.htm"]St. Veronica Giuliani[/url], Poor Clare Capuchin. It is said that they found embedded physically in her heart little symbols of the Passion, similar to [url="http://www.catholic-forum.com/saintS/saintc41.htm"]St. Clare of Montefalco[/url].

Okay, I'm having too much fun with all the links here! I better get going soon ..

Also, I actually didn't know until a couple years ago that St. Clare's name in Italian is Chiara (key - are - ah) It is quite beautiful, though a bit different from the name, Clare. But in Italy, the Poor Clares are called simply, "Clarisse" (Clar - ees - say)

Edited February 7, 2007 by Margaret Clare

[Chiquitunga]

Another great Poor Clare saint - St. Catherine of Bologna - [url="http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintc26.htm"]http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintc26.htm[/url] Her body is incorrupt and seated upright. I heard and read that this was a testimony of her obedience and of the power of obedience. I believe she had been kneeling in choir, and the Mother Superior told her to sit. Then she died seated! I will have to look this up again to be sure! This is an actual picture of her on this website though! You can go to Bologna & see her like this!

[EJames]

Glory to Jesus Christ!
is it correct that these Discalced Carmelite Sisters at
Carmel of Jesus, Mary and Joseph in
Valparaiso, NEBRASKA
have a Celebration of the Mass of St. Pius V (Tridentine) ?
[img]http://www.lasvegasmariancenter.com/images/carmel.aerial1_dec01.jpg[/img]

[treynolds]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1186991' date='Feb 6 2007, 11:19 PM']
I would like to understand the main differences between the contemplative Carmelites and Poor Clare nuns. I like both orders but I think that the Carmelites are more likely to be into study and reading than the Poor Clares, is that right?

Does anyone have a good understanding of how the Carmelite and Franciscan ways are the same and how they differ? I have also been looking at contemplative Benedictines and Visitation as well, but the Carmelites and Poor Clares are my favorites..... thanks for any help.
[/quote]

Hello, I saw that you were discerning about the contemplative life as well. Iam too, but, since i am a guy, its a little different. But I know somethings that help me are just to live right here and now in this moment and do not let yourself get to caught up in the future. Another things that you should keep in mind are the different reasons for their contemplation. I dont know much about the Poor Clares, but I know that the Carmelites contemplation to obtain union with God (not to say that the others dont, but like with the Dominicans, their contemplation focuses more on obtaining truth and then preaching the fruits of their contemplation.) also, place your vocation into the hands of Mary and let her lead you. Take care.

To Jesus through Mary,



Taylor Reynolds

[Nunsense]

[quote name='maryslave' post='1191951' date='Feb 11 2007, 07:34 PM']
Hello, I saw that you were discerning about the contemplative life as well. Iam too, but, since i am a guy, its a little different. But I know somethings that help me are just to live right here and now in this moment and do not let yourself get to caught up in the future. Another things that you should keep in mind are the different reasons for their contemplation. I dont know much about the Poor Clares, but I know that the Carmelites contemplation to obtain union with God (not to say that the others dont, but like with the Dominicans, their contemplation focuses more on obtaining truth and then preaching the fruits of their contemplation.) also, place your vocation into the hands of Mary and let her lead you. Take care.

To Jesus through Mary,
Taylor Reynolds
[/quote]


Taylor - my situation is that I have invitations from three different orders to discern with them. One is Benedictine, one is Carmelite and the third is Franciscan. I love them all but feel most called to Carmel. I am trying to understand the spirituality of each so I can discern more accurately where I am being called. It isn't a "future" thing since I can do this now, but more of a "please show me where I belong". I say a nightly vocation prayer to Mary that the Poor Clares sent to me, and I also ask God every day to help me know his Will for me.

My question here was just to ask what others know or feel about the charism and spirituality of each order. Thank you for your concern.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='EJames' post='1190760' date='Feb 10 2007, 02:13 PM']
Glory to Jesus Christ!
is it correct that these Discalced Carmelite Sisters at
Carmel of Jesus, Mary and Joseph in
Valparaiso, NEBRASKA
have a Celebration of the Mass of St. Pius V (Tridentine) ?
[img]http://www.lasvegasmariancenter.com/images/carmel.aerial1_dec01.jpg[/img]
[/quote] Hey, yep, this is an Ecclesia Dei community - in that they have the permission to use the Tridentine Divien Office and have the Tridentine Mass offered by the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter. What a beautiful place it looks like! I have heard that they are full, but also heard from someone that they may have an opening. So writing would be the best way to find out! What an awesome new monastery, built in the traditional Spanish style.

[stlmom]

Not to be too off topic, but which Benedictines are you looking at?

[Nunsense]

[quote name='stlmom' post='1192596' date='Feb 12 2007, 01:37 PM']
Not to be too off topic, but which Benedictines are you looking at?
[/quote]

Well, if you are talking to me, I was discerning with the Tyburn Nun in London. I have decided not to pursue that avenue however (they were very nice to me) because I really know that I am being called to Carmel. My latest question is about the O Carm vs the OCD however, so I am going to post that in a separate thread.

[Totus Tuus]

Basically they are two very different Orders. Both have strong devotion to Our Lady, and both have many very solid communities in America.

As for your specific question (it takes a long time to point out all of the differences!), I have noticed (in my own personal study of the two Orders) that both Orders really do set aside time for spiritual reading. Both allow the Sister to read on the side insofar as she feels inclined, I think. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that both Orders are similar in this regard.

I haven't read Margaret Clare's insights on this topic, but she seems to be very knowledgeable about the Carmelite Order. I was a Poor Clare, so I don't know that much about Carmel.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' post='1193073' date='Feb 12 2007, 10:21 PM'] I have noticed (in my own personal study of the two Orders) that both Orders really do set aside time for spiritual reading. Both allow the Sister to read on the side insofar as she feels inclined, I think. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that both Orders are similar in this regard.
[/quote] Yeah, I think that's right. For spiritual reading at least, the Poor Clares and Carmelites have pretty much the same thing. But then the Domincans and Cistercians and Carthusians, also have a time for study/ reading, apart from spiritual reading, that I've noticed in their horariums,especially I believe the Dominicans, as study is more a part of their charism. But I'm not 100% sure ..

[Totus Tuus]

Study is important in Dominican life, particularly for the teaching communities of course. It's important in the Dominican contemplative life as well, but is not emphasized overmuch - just a healthy amount of study and reading to exercise the spiritual life and encourage meditation. At least, that has been my observation.

The Benedictines seem to be big on study and reading, too.

[EJames]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1186991' date='Feb 6 2007, 08:19 PM']
I would like to understand the main differences between the contemplative Carmelites and Poor Clare nuns. I like both orders but I think that the Carmelites are more likely to be into study and reading than the Poor Clares, is that right?

Does anyone have a good understanding of how the Carmelite and Franciscan ways are the same and how they differ? I have also been looking at contemplative Benedictines and Visitation as well, but the Carmelites and Poor Clares are my favorites..... thanks for any help.
[/quote]
-
Glory to Jesus Christ!
Br. Bugnolo says it better than i could
[url="http://www.franciscan-archive.org/franciscana/franvoc.html"]http://www.franciscan-archive.org/franciscana/franvoc.html[/url]

[Nunsense]

[quote name='EJames' post='1193275' date='Feb 12 2007, 11:18 PM']
-
Glory to Jesus Christ!
Br. Bugnolo says it better than i could
[url="http://www.franciscan-archive.org/franciscana/franvoc.html"]http://www.franciscan-archive.org/franciscana/franvoc.html[/url]
[/quote]

Actually, I read it but it seemed to be a lot about the Franciscans and not how they are different from other orders since they all have the vows that he describes.

And I wasn't comparing orders so much as asking how they differ in day to day community life and charism. That article didn't say it in a way I could really understand - but thank you for trying.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' post='1193091' date='Feb 12 2007, 10:35 PM']
Study is important in Dominican life, particularly for the teaching communities of course. It's important in the Dominican contemplative life as well, but is not emphasized overmuch - just a healthy amount of study and reading to exercise the spiritual life and encourage meditation. At least, that has been my observation.

The Benedictines seem to be big on study and reading, too.
[/quote] Yeah, this is how the Srs of Bethlehem and Carthusian Nuns are too. They have a time set apart for a healthy amount of study and reading for their theological formation and to help their spiritual life and encourage meditation. The foundress of the Srs of Bethlehem was a contemplative Dominican, so they share their charism a bit, and well as the charism of the Carthusians, who also have this time for study and reading, which I do rather like .. ...

[Guest eight_days_after]

[quote name='Margaret Clare' post='1187920' date='Feb 7 2007, 08:53 PM']
Another great Poor Clare saint - St. Catherine of Bologna - [url="http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintc26.htm"]http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintc26.htm[/url] Her body is incorrupt and seated upright. I heard and read that this was a testimony of her obedience and of the power of obedience. I believe she had been kneeling in choir, and the Mother Superior told her to sit. Then she died seated! I will have to look this up again to be sure! This is an actual picture of her on this website though! You can go to Bologna & see her like this!
[/quote]


um... I dont know where you heard this, but I dont think its true.... i know she is incorruptible, and she has been seated upright for more than five-hundred years, but she did not die sitting down. *goes and gets books*

alright... this information is affirmed by three different soarces....
1) [i]The Encyclopedia of Saints[/i]
2) [i]The Incorruptibles[/i] - Joan Carroll Cruz
3) [i]Visionaries, Mystics and Stigmatists Down Through the Ages[/i] - Bob and Penny Lord

St. Catherine of Bologna died March 9th 1463, her fiftieth birthday... each soarce says that she died of a "raging fever", and some indicate that she had been ill for months, but kept on pushing herself. She was the Abbess of the Poor Clares in Bologna at the time, and gave fulfilling that duty everything she had. She was buried "within hours without a coffin", as was the tradition.

[quote]Her body was exhumed 18 days later because of the sweet scent coming from her grave and the miraculous cures claimed by those who visited it. Her body was found to be incorrupt and bathed in sweat. While sisters cleaned it, a pleasant perfume wafted from it.[/quote] (encyclopedia)

the soarces also say that each time they tried to rebury the body, a "mysterious force" pushed them back to the Choir area. because so many people wanted to venerate the Saint, four nuns would carry her body to the parlor for 12 years.... (rigor mortis never set in)

eventually, ....
[quote]It was only when the Abbess ordered her, did Catherine, out of obedience, sit unaided in the chair and in the same position she can be found to this day.[/quote] (VMS)


I hope this clarifies things... I love learning about the Saints... especially the St. Catherine's

May you walk eternally in God's footsteps!! =D

[Chiquitunga]

[quote]It was only when the Abbess ordered her, did Catherine, out of obedience, sit unaided in the chair and in the same position she can be found to this day.
(VMS)[/quote]

It was something like this that I heard. I heard it from a Franciscan priest from Italy that went there. So wait, does this mean that St. Catherine's body sat up in obedience to the Abbess, after she had been dead for some years? (not dead, more alive in Heaven, but her body) Whoa! That's pretty awesome.

This priest also told me that some people when they go there, see her eyes open, while others at the same time, might see them closed - and really obviously open. It's like she looking out for certain people, or something ..