Altar Girls

[iggyjoan]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1235298' date='Apr 8 2007, 07:45 PM']I'm glad to know you enjoy going against the tradition of the Holy Roman Church...[/quote]
ok whoa. its not going against tradition, its the start of a new tradition. going against tradition would be a women priest or something. theres nothign wrongwith a girl who loves to serve her Lord during a mass.

[Resurrexi]

[quote]So, then, should there be no women cantors or lectors?[/quote]No since lector is a minor order and cantor is an office reserved for men.

[quote]Well, if their parish is short/or do not have alter boys, then what else are they going to do?[/quote]

Use adult men.

[quote]ok whoa. its not going against tradition, its the start of a new tradition. going against tradition would be a women priest or something. theres nothign wrongwith a girl who loves to serve her Lord during a mass.[/quote]

Having males only serve at the altar is a practice which spans the entire history of the Catholic Church both Eastern and Western, therefore, going against that practice is going against tradition. There is something wrong with a girl serving Mass just like there is something wrong with a man becoming a nun. If a girl wants to have a devotion to the Mass, that's totally wonderful, but that devotion should be fulfilled by attending daily indult Traditional Latin Mass and following along with what the priest is doing in her missal and keeping her mouth shut.

[Proud2BCatholic139]

Generally most older/adult men do not want to be alter boys, and it is a voluntary postition...

We see a greater laziness in today's society, especially in the Catholic Church.

[Lena]

We have girl altar servers at my church, I don't see a problem with it. Traditions are great, but we need girl altar servers, they help to keep it going.

[iggyjoan]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1235503' date='Apr 8 2007, 09:31 PM']Use adult men.

Having males only serve at the altar is a practice which spans the entire history of the Catholic Church both Eastern and Western, therefore, going against that practice is going against tradition.... If a girl wants to have a devotion to the Mass, that's totally wonderful, but that devotion should be fulfilled by attending daily indult Traditional Latin Mass and following along with what the priest is doing in her missal and keeping her mouth shut.[/quote]

okay first, how many grown men would want to serve? not many, at least not where i live.

and secondly, um, hello vatican II! hello 21st century! and keeping her mouth shut? are you sexist? seriously, are you?

[iggyjoan]

[quote name='Lena' post='1235560' date='Apr 8 2007, 10:31 PM']We have girl altar servers at my church, I don't see a problem with it. Traditions are great, but we need girl altar servers, they help to keep it going.[/quote]

boosha. :

[Didymus]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1235503' date='Apr 8 2007, 08:31 PM']No since lector is a minor order and cantor is an office reserved for men.[/quote]

but reader is not, and any lay faithful may read, although they may not do the gospel.

Is cantor still officially an office? I thought lector and acolyte were the only two left...

[Aloysius]

[quote name='-I---Love' post='1235147' date='Apr 8 2007, 05:02 PM']When did this occur?[/quote]
haha you got me you can hardly ever trust formal training in these matters nowadays anyways, though.

anyway, it is quite clear that the Church sees one of the primary purposes of Altar Boys as being preparation for the priesthood. this is why she prefers boys to serve at the altar. that's what the Church says, read [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html"]redemptionis sacramentum. [/url] the Church allows bishops to allow girls but does not prefer it. it's never been permitted in the Diocese of Rome, for instance, indicating the clear preference of the Popes.

in the interest of Ecumenism, as well, we ought not to be doing things which harm relations with the other Apostolic Churches. This is a scandal to the East that we allow so many of the laity who do not represent an extension of the clergy or even a potential extension of the clergy to go onto the altar. the liturgy must be maintained as an exchange between the clergy and the laity; and actions that come out of the altar are to be done by clergy or clear extensions of the clergy; but what we have in the democratizing of these roles is a bunch of people who represent clear extensions of the laity; it disrupts the liturgical symbolism. the laity receive and respond.

Lector and Acolyte and Cantor are all reserved by the Church for men only. By temporary deputation any layman take on their duties, however (but that does not make them lectors or acolytes or cantors, just readers and EMHCs and singers). But the rule of thumb is that the more stable the ministry, and the more it represents an extension of the clergy, the more preferable it is according to the Church. so instituted Acolytes and Lectors are preferable to those by temporary deputation (ie Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion and Readers). although, especially when the choir has a clear place apart from the altar, it is not as important to have an actual instituted cantor in place, because the songs are generally an act which is an extension of the congregation.

the use of males over females for these roles best preserves a sense that those on the altar are not extensions of the laity, but of the clergy. because they have the potential to be made clergy, and they look more like the clergy, et cetera. when it's a bunch of men and women, it is clear in the liturgical symbolism that these are members of the laity presiding over members of the laity; they are not extending the ministerial priesthood from Christ to the people but exercising duties that are not proper to them under normal conditions. It is disruptive to the flow of the liturgy; and anyone who does not see that has never been to an undisrupted organically flowing liturgy. because if you've been to one, you can immediately see the difference.

neither Vatican II nor Rome nor the Church prefer that the lines be blurred between the clergy and the laity in the liturgy. They want the laity to take up an active participation in their proper role, which is in the pews actively receptive and responsive. Time and time again they have made it clear that all these roles being assumed by the laity are not preferable; that turning the altar into a mirror image of the congregation instead of a distinct ministerial head of the congregation is bad. and that's what trying to maintain the male presence on the altar is about, that's what trying to keep altar servers as potential priests is about: having there be a distinct priest who acts in the place of the Bridegroom have groomsmen; because that's what the servers are: groomsmen to the man who acts in the person of The Bridegroom, Christ. The Bridegroom should not be given Bridesmaids; it is the congregation which stands as the bride to Christ.

while the word "lesbianism" went across poorly because of its abrasiveness, it clearly flows from a clear sight which sees the disruption of the liturgical symbolism. whilst all of you see this in these modern political terms; this person is peering into the big picture of the transcendent liturgy and realizing that the intricate symbolism has been disrupted. it may not be lesbianism; but it's a fair analogy because we are turning our altars into just another part of the congregation; cutting off the ministerial head and replacing it with a group of the laity (and a group of the laity constitutes the Church, the bride of Christ)

tread carefully; this is not women becoming doctors and lawyers; this is women becoming extensions of the priesthood. if they cannot be priests, then properly, they won't be seen as extensions of the clergy, and therefore they are out of place.

[Knight of the Holy Rosary]

[quote]We have girl altar servers at my church, I don't see a problem with it. Traditions are great, but we need girl altar servers, they help to keep it going.[/quote][quote]boosha.[/quote]

No...they don't keep altar serving going. They keep girls altar serving going. I am a parishioner of an 'up and coming parish'. As you could imagine our numbers are very small. We do not have Altar Girls. We do, however, have young men serving in Cassock and Surplice in groups of [i]at least [/i]three every Sunday and Holy Day.

These boys (who once begrudgingly) serve at the altar with excitement and reverence. They see themselves not just as altar boys...they see themselves as young men at the Altar. This plants the seed for discernment to the priesthood.

There is no point in beating around the bush here, serving at the Altar (which used to be a stepping stone toward priesthood i.e. acolytes) is very instrumental in sparking the desire to become a priest; priesthood is a [i]masculine[/i] vocation. This will not change.

Edited April 10, 2007 by Knight of the Holy Rosary

[Brigid]

I can see the point that many of you are making...

However.

I am a female altar server, and it has been such a blessing to me!! I would be crushed if I had to give it up. I started serving in fifth grade, and since then I've served at countless sunday masses, many funerals, two healing masses, three easter vigil masses, two christmas midnight masses, one holy thursday mass, one good friday service, and even a mass for JPII on the wednesday after he died. A year or two ago, I would altar serve every weekend because someone who was supposed to serve wouldn't show up.

I love altar serving, and it has brought me so much closer to God. I honestly wouldn't understand or appreciate the Mass as much as I do now if I had not started altar serving.

It's hard for me to see how something that has brought so much good to my life could possibly be considered wrong.

[Aloysius]

it's not wrong in the effects it has on YOU necessarily (unless it made you want to be a priest or something), but in the effects it has on the liturgy. there are parishes who have altar boy programs which also have alternative programs for young girls where you would get all of those same benefits without disrupting the liturgy in that way.

either way, it's not you who disrupted the liturgy, but people in high places who made these decisions. whether or not you individually serve doesn't have much of a bearing on the whole thing. but ultimately, it would be better for the whole Church for boys only to serve at the altar; there are countless ways to get closer in your understanding of the mass than serving at the altar.

[iggyjoan]

[quote name='Brigid' post='1237938' date='Apr 10 2007, 04:23 PM']I can see the point that many of you are making...

However.

I am a female altar server, and it has been such a blessing to me!! I would be crushed if I had to give it up. I started serving in fifth grade, and since then I've served at countless sunday masses, many funerals, two healing masses, three easter vigil masses, two christmas midnight masses, one holy thursday mass, one good friday service, and even a mass for JPII on the wednesday after he died. A year or two ago, I would altar serve every weekend because someone who was supposed to serve wouldn't show up.

I love altar serving, and it has brought me so much closer to God. I honestly wouldn't understand or appreciate the Mass as much as I do now if I had not started altar serving.

It's hard for me to see how something that has brought so much good to my life could possibly be considered wrong.[/quote]


YES! will you be my new best friend?

[iggyjoan]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1237985' date='Apr 10 2007, 05:42 PM']it's not wrong in the effects it has on YOU necessarily (unless it made you want to be a priest or something), but in the effects it has on the liturgy. there are parishes who have altar boy programs which also have alternative programs for young girls where you would get all of those same benefits without disrupting the liturgy in that way.

either way, it's not you who disrupted the liturgy, but people in high places who made these decisions. whether or not you individually serve doesn't have much of a bearing on the whole thing. but ultimately, it would be better for the whole Church for boys only to serve at the altar; there are countless ways to get closer in your understanding of the mass than serving at the altar.[/quote]

i still don't get how girls serving disrupts the litergy. at my parish we have a LOT more girl servers then boy servers. i really dont think it matters who serves the mass, just that it is served.

[Knight of the Holy Rosary]

[quote]at my parish we have a LOT more girl servers then boy servers[/quote]Why do you suppose that is? Do think this is a good thing? What boy would want to serve if he thinks it is a girls job?

[quote]i really dont think it matters who serves the mass, just that it is served[/quote]

This is exactly the problem. No need for distinction! Just another 'volunteer oppurtunity' for the youth. This degrades the role of serving at the altar.
You cannot deny the vocational impact altar serving has. I challenge you to ask any priest you know if serving at the altar as a boy had an impact on his vocation. I guarantee you 9 out of 10 will say it has.

Women do not have a future at the altar. What happens when a young girl thinks she has a vocation to the priesthood? It would all be a tease. You can serve at the Altar....you just have no future at the altar. Seems a bit cruel to me.

[iggyjoan]

[quote name='Knight of the Holy Rosary' post='1242881' date='Apr 14 2007, 02:07 PM']Why do you suppose that is? Do think this is a good thing? What boy would want to serve if he thinks it is a girls job?
This is exactly the problem. No need for distinction! Just another 'volunteer oppurtunity' for the youth. This degrades the role of serving at the altar.
You cannot deny the vocational impact altar serving has. I challenge you to ask any priest you know if serving at the altar as a boy had an impact on his vocation. I guarantee you 9 out of 10 will say it has.

Women do not have a future at the altar. What happens when a young girl thinks she has a vocation to the priesthood? It would all be a tease. You can serve at the Altar....you just have no future at the altar. Seems a bit cruel to me.[/quote]

It is a good thing. Its a good way for girls to get involved with the church.We know we arn't going to be priests, were not stupid. It feels good to be doing somethign for the Lord during Holy Mass.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='iggyjoan' post='1236555' date='Apr 9 2007, 04:49 PM']okay first, how many grown men would want to serve? not many, at least not where i live.

and secondly, um, hello vatican II! hello 21st century! and keeping her mouth shut? are you sexist? seriously, are you?[/quote]

I know of several adult men who serve...

Um hello, the Second Vatican Council didn't change anything and the Missal of 1962 fits the changes called for in [i]Sacrosanctum Concilium[/i]. Hello, the Church is CATHOLIC! she exits outside of time! she does not change! so saying hello 21st century is totally irrelevant! No, I'm not a sexist, but many may consider me that because I believe in upholding the traditions of the Church and the traditions of traditional European culture.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='iggyjoan' post='1236555' date='Apr 9 2007, 04:49 PM']okay first, how many grown men would want to serve? not many, at least not where i live.

and secondly, um, hello vatican II! hello 21st century! and keeping her mouth shut? are you sexist? seriously, are you?[/quote]

I know of several adult men who serve...

Um hello, the Second Vatican Council didn't change anything and the Missal of 1962 fits the changes called for in [i]Sacrosanctum Concilium[/i]. Hello, the Church is CATHOLIC! she exits outside of time! she does not change! so saying hello 21st century is totally irrelevant! No, I'm not a sexist, but many may consider me that because I believe in upholding the traditions of the Church and the traditions of traditional European culture.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='iggyjoan' post='1236555' date='Apr 9 2007, 04:49 PM']okay first, how many grown men would want to serve? not many, at least not where i live.

and secondly, um, hello vatican II! hello 21st century! and keeping her mouth shut? are you sexist? seriously, are you?[/quote]

I know of several adult men who serve...

Um hello, the Second Vatican Council didn't change anything and the Missal of 1962 fits the changes called for in [i]Sacrosanctum Concilium[/i]. Hello, the Church is CATHOLIC! she exits outside of time! she does not change! so saying hello 21st century is totally irrelevant! No, I'm not a sexist, but many may consider me that because I believe in upholding the traditions of the Church and the traditions of traditional European culture.

[Didymus]

whats traditional European culture; U talkin like patriarchal families and whatnot?

[iggyjoan]

well where I live adult men do not serve.


Thomas More, you're not catholic, are you? You sound pretty sexist to me. Women are not meant to keep their mouths shut, about the church or anythign else. we have opinions and they deserve to be heard.

the word CATHOLIC means universal, meaning EVERYBODY and EVERYTHING is welcome to serve the Lord. that means girls too.