Altar Girls

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='iggyjoan' post='1243001' date='Apr 14 2007, 01:00 PM']well where I live adult men do not serve.
Thomas More, you're not catholic, are you? You sound pretty sexist to me. Women are not meant to keep their mouths shut, about the church or anythign else. we have opinions and they deserve to be heard.

the word CATHOLIC means universal, meaning EVERYBODY and EVERYTHING is welcome to serve the Lord. that means girls too.[/quote]

What do you mean by: "You're not Catholic, are you?". In my profile my personal statement is: "I believe in all the Dogmata and Doctrines of the Holy Catholic Church; and I acknowledge His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI to be the valid Vicar of Christ, Successor of St. Peter and Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church. I assist at a Traditional Latin Mass by indult of His Excellency my Bishop. My signature is a Prayer for the Pope. My avatar is the coat of arms of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter, a fraternity of priests in communion with the Pontiff who say the Traditional Latin Mass. And you can't tell that I'm a Catholic?

No, I am not a sexist.

Women are to keep their silence in chrurches, the Scriptures say so.

[quote][b]Douay-Rheims Bible; I Corinthians 14, 34-35:[/b]
34 Let women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith. 35 But if they would learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is a shame for a woman to speak in the church.
[url="http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=53&ch=14&l=34&f=s#x"]http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk...;l=34&f=s#x[/url][/quote]

Of course the word Catholic means universal. It means that all men of all times are called to be members of the Church and that the Church exists outside of time and does not change.

[quote]whats traditional European culture; U talkin like patriarchal families and whatnot?[/quote]

Traditional European culture is assisitng at the Traditional Latin Mass, praying the Rosary as a family, having a bonfire on St. John's Eve, eating crepes on Epiphany, and all other Catholic traditions that originated in Europe. The reason why traditional European culture is the greatest culture is becuase it grew and evolved with the Church and became fully Catholic.

[iggyjoan]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1243048' date='Apr 14 2007, 04:41 PM']What do you mean by: "You're not Catholic, are you?". In my profile my personal statement is: "I believe in all the Dogmata and Doctrines of the Holy Catholic Church; and I acknowledge His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI to be the valid Vicar of Christ, Successor of St. Peter and Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church. I assist at a Traditional Latin Mass by indult of His Excellency my Bishop. My signature is a Prayer for the Pope. My avatar is the coat of arms of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter, a fraternity of priests in communion with the Pontiff who say the Traditional Latin Mass. And you can't tell that I'm a Catholic?

No, I am not a sexist.

Women are to keep their silence in chrurches, the Scriptures say so.
Of course the word Catholic means universal. It means that all men of all times are called to be members of the Church and that the Church exists outside of time and does not change.
Traditional European culture is assisitng at the Traditional Latin Mass, praying the Rosary as a family, having a bonfire on St. John's Eve, eating crepes on Epiphany, and all other Catholic traditions that originated in Europe. The reason why traditional European culture is the greatest culture is becuase it grew and evolved with the Church and became fully Catholic.[/quote]

i meant by 'youre not catholic, are you' to mean 'are you a catholic?' your info says 'hello i do not rep the church' and taht you are a seperated bretheran, so i am assuming that you are not. what seperated bretherans stand for, i do not know, but tht is probably the reason for our conflict.

and women have just as much right to speak in churches as men do, i dont care what scripture says. and i know that sounds horrible, but i really dont mean it that way. times change, traditions change. deal with it.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='iggyjoan' post='1243200' date='Apr 14 2007, 05:30 PM']i meant by 'youre not catholic, are you' to mean 'are you a catholic?' your info says 'hello i do not rep the church' and taht you are a seperated bretheran, so i am assuming that you are not. what seperated bretherans stand for, i do not know, but tht is probably the reason for our conflict.

and women have just as much right to speak in churches as men do, i dont care what scripture says. and i know that sounds horrible, but i really dont mean it that way. times change, traditions change. deal with it.[/quote]

My "hello, I don't rep" title is because some of my past posts have been considered uncharitable and having "rad-trad" ideas in them...

Your comment on how you don't care what the Scriptures say makes you sound like a modernist who believes the following condemned and proscribed errors:

[quote][b]Lamentabili Sane of Pope St. Pius X:[/b]
9. They display excessive simplicity or ignorance who believe that God is really the author of the Sacred Scriptures.
[url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm"]http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm[/url][/quote]

[quote][b]Lamentabili Sane of Pope St. Pius X: [/b]
11. Divine inspiration does not extend to all of Sacred Scriptures so that it renders its parts, each and every one, free from every error.
[url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm"]http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm[/url][/quote]

And the Church does not change with time. The error that Christian Truth changes was also condemned:

[quote][b]Lamentabili Sane of Pope St. Pius X: [/b]
59. Christ did not teach a determined body of doctrine applicable to all times and all men, but rather inaugurated a religious movement adapted or to be adapted to different times and places.
[url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm"]http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm[/url][/quote]

[iggyjoan]

o ok.

and im not stupid. i know God did not physically write the scripture. he.. "inspired" specific others to write them.

the church may not change, but it really is a matter of opinion when it comes to female alter servers.

[Knight of the Holy Rosary]

[quote]but it really is a matter of opinion when it comes to female alter servers[/quote]Where did you get that idea?

[quote] I meant by 'youre not catholic, are you' to mean 'are you a catholic?' your info says 'hello i do not rep the church'[/quote]

[quote]i dont care what scripture says.[/quote]

I wouldn't question someone's catholicity and then make such a heretical statement.

But....whatever makes you most comfortable I guess....even if little ole' things like Scripture and Tradition stand in your way.

Edited April 15, 2007 by Knight of the Holy Rosary

[Didymus]

honestly, i think we need to look at the big picture and see that both St.ThomasMore and iggyjoan are doing what they can themselves to best serve our Lord within the confines and permissions of Holy Mother Church; and we'll all prolly see each other after this life. (maybe both of you will end up serving together at the Lamb's Supper up there in heaven )

if that does happen, I'll be the guy in the back pew of heaven laughing my head off...

[Brigid]

[quote name='iggyjoan' post='1242831' date='Apr 14 2007, 12:01 PM']YES! will you be my new best friend?[/quote]

Yay! A new best friend!! Of course :

[iggyjoan]

[quote name='Knight of the Holy Rosary' post='1243872' date='Apr 15 2007, 02:01 AM']Where did you get that idea?
I wouldn't question someone's catholicity and then make such a heretical statement.

But....whatever makes you most comfortable I guess....even if little ole' things like Scripture and Tradition stand in your way.[/quote]
I meant by that that some parishes do not want female alterservers, and some do. My parish is one that does.

I bet yours is one that does not. Do you also think that women cannot be Eucheristic Ministers? Cause we CAN and we ARE.


[quote name='Didymus' post='1243897' date='Apr 15 2007, 02:17 AM']honestly, i think we need to look at the big picture and see that both St.ThomasMore and iggyjoan are doing what they can themselves to best serve our Lord within the confines and permissions of Holy Mother Church; and we'll all prolly see each other after this life. (maybe both of you will end up serving together at the Lamb's Supper up there in heaven )

if that does happen, I'll be the guy in the back pew of heaven laughing my head off... [/quote]

..

shut up.

[iggyjoan]

[quote name='Brigid' post='1244152' date='Apr 15 2007, 05:45 AM']Yay! A new best friend!! Of course :[/quote]

yessssssssssssss

*high five*

[Mr.Cat]

Please do not forget what i posted seemly ages ago concerning Altar Servers in what the Vatican has said.

[Aloysius]

Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion (the Vatican has, on several occasions, decried the use of the term "Eucharistic minister" or even "minister of the Eucharist" to refer to these people, they have no ministerial role in the actualy Eucharist, ie the consecration, they have a ministerial role in distributing the Communion) are an entirely differerent story. they are extra-ordinary and not preferred in and of themselves, no matter what the sex. it would be more preferable for lay acolytes to be instituted in a stable ministry to aid the priest in distributing Holy Communion. of course, only males at least 25 years of age may be instituted as Acolytes.

in any event, the important liturgical aspect is that everything done ministerially to the congregation be maintained as an extension of the clergy. the whole symbolism is breached when we see extensions of the laity up on the altar, that's why it's not preferable and we should be working to avoid any necessity of EMHCs. I also think that's why having servers who are not potential priests breaches the liturgical symbolism; altar girls do not look like extensions of the priest or the priesthood, and that's what hurts the symbolism of the liturgy.

altar boys started out as was said of them in the first post: it is basically an informal apprentiship to the priesthood. no obligation, no money down, see what it'd be like to be a priest serving the mass. and that's still what they're there for; and they do maintain the symbolism of extensions of the priesthood by their potentiality as priests.

of course, this or that girl who is a good server at the altar cannot restore this symbolism. it's up to bishops; and maybe parents; to restore the liturgy in this regard. it does no good to tell some girl altar server not to do it anymore if there's just going to be a bunch of other girls ready to fill in. but in the overall big picture, the practice of altar girls should be discontinued

[iggyjoan]

i'd like to see you try and change it.

[Knight of the Holy Rosary]

[quote]i'd like to see you try and change it.[/quote]

Change what? The position of the Church hasn't changed.

[iggyjoan]

the altergirl rule.

I'm fine with it.

You got a problem, you try to change it.

[Aloysius]

the "altargirl rule" as it stands is that altar boys are preferred and altar girls are permitted by many bishops. I have no power to change anything, but damage is being done through liturgies that no longer have the clear distinction between laity and clergy; you're being deprived of something very beautiful, intricate, and holy in the liturgies that have lost this interplay between the clergy with its extensions and the laity. you've been cut off from the Church's history and from the Eastern portions of the Church in scandalous ways that are harmful to unity and harmful to the faith.

but oh well... I guess since you don't have a "problem" with the "altargirl rule" (which is really a permission, an exception from the norm) then I guess it's alright... let's just disconnect ourselves from the history of the liturgy and make stuff up as we go along

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='iggyjoan' post='1243380' date='Apr 14 2007, 08:21 PM']o ok.

and im not stupid. i know God did not physically write the scripture. he.. "inspired" specific others to write them.

the church may not change, but it really is a matter of opinion when it comes to female alter servers.[/quote]

You misread the quote. The body of the document [i]Lamentabili[/i] is a list of condemned and proscribed errors. That God did not really write the Scripture is a condemned and proscribed error. Anyone who does not believe that God is not the Author of the Scriptures is an anathematized heretic.

[iggyjoan]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1244640' date='Apr 15 2007, 06:40 PM']the "altargirl rule" as it stands is that altar boys are preferred and altar girls are permitted by many bishops. I have no power to change anything, but damage is being done through liturgies that no longer have the clear distinction between laity and clergy; you're being deprived of something very beautiful, intricate, and holy in the liturgies that have lost this interplay between the clergy with its extensions and the laity. you've been cut off from the Church's history and from the Eastern portions of the Church in scandalous ways that are harmful to unity and harmful to the faith.

but oh well... I guess since you don't have a "problem" with the "altargirl rule" (which is really a permission, an exception from the norm) then I guess it's alright... let's just disconnect ourselves from the history of the liturgy and make stuff up as we go along [/quote]

o yes lets. (sarcasm)

you frustrate me with all your big words and sentances.

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1244751' date='Apr 15 2007, 07:42 PM']You misread the quote. The body of the document [i]Lamentabili[/i] is a list of condemned and proscribed errors. That God did not really write the Scripture is a condemned and proscribed error. Anyone who does not believe that God is not the Author of the Scriptures is an anathematized heretic.[/quote]

no no no, i do believe God is the author of the scriptures, He just didn't sit down with a pen and physicaly write them.

I've never heard of 'Lamentabili'.

[happynun]

This is like one of those never-ending threads, isn't it? Has anyone gotten anywhere? It just seems like there are two viewpoints that are probably not going to agree with one another.

Edited April 20, 2007 by happynun

[ardillacid]

Everyone should have a few s

[Aloysius]

like I said, I have no goal of trying to get a grass-roots movement of girls refusing to be altar girls. But I do want to help people understand the reasons so that if the bishops were to exercise that which is their right and forbid altar girls in their diocese, they will not get up in arms and be angry; but rather will understand the bishop's line of thought as the cheif liturgist of his diocese and comply, and look at the liturgy in that way accepting the Bishop's edification through liturgical law in this regard. All I'm saying is: understand the traditional viewpoint, and don't be surprised or angry if your diocese ever returns to that which is the Norm in the Universal Church.

sorry about big words or complex grammer, this is the way I think, write, and even on occassion speak. I'm still under twenty until July, when I turn 20, but I enjoy cultivating the lexicon and grammer of the full English language, and think it is really sad that modern anglophones, even those who are college educated, speak english basically as a second language. linguistically speaking, that is the way one would categorize the way people write in english nowadays; they've lost the complexity of grammer. But that's another rant, I'm sorry if I don't have comprehensibility... I don't intend that at all. I'm not trying to sound like a donkey; I really don't even realize it if I use big words. anyway, comprehsibility issues usually come from complex or obscure grammer, it's not usually the big words so much. I really don't know what I'm doing.

but simply: I just want people to understand the reasoning behind boy-only altar service and not see altar service as their right, and not see altar-boy-only rules as sexist, evil, or unfair. Even when participating in certain allowable novelties, all Catholics should still attempt to understand and connect with the past rules and the reasons behind them. Edited April 20, 2007 by Era Might