Exorcism And Psychological Illnesses

[Aloysius]

Hopefully this poll is not too complicated for the masses. Please do not vote for Pat Buchannen. In the second poll question you can select multiple choices; please only choose multiples if you vote for one of the yes'es, and in that case only vote for one or both of the two choices under the yes which you have chosen. I suppose if you have multiple personalities (which is different from skitzophrenia but is still an hilariously relevant joke) you could just vote for all of the options.

I have been thinking about this... and I'm starting to wonder how wise we are to totally dismiss any and all possibility of exorcism on the basis of mental illness. Yes, psychologists should work with people who have skitzophrenia and other mental disorders... but is it not possible that demonic influence could be involved even with these illnesses? That the chemical imbalances are physical reflections of spiritual realities? could not an exorcist work with a psychologist in helping a person?

just some thoughts I'm having... because you can think back to the exorcisms of history and many psychologists will insist these people just had some psychological illness... yet the exorcism often helped anyway. people even try to say the demoniac Jesus healed was just a crazy man... could he not have had demons which caused imbalances in his psyche and possessed him controlling him in that way? if a psychological problem takes away your ability to excercise free will, what makes that different from what a demon does to a person when he takes away their ability to excercise free will?

What do you think? Should psychologists and exorcists work together? Or is the system currently in place; wherein a team of psychological experts helps the exorcist determine if the troubled person should either go through exorcism or psychiatric care.

[Jaime]

you know sometimes an exorcism can solve a psychological problem It doesn't always mean that the disorder was caused by demonic activity. Its just enough that the person believes it was caused by demons.

That being said, there is a HUGE difference between the possessed and the schizophrenic, (or multiple personalities, etc) so I didn't answer the poll questions. Simply because if someone is diagnosed as being insane, but they are in actuality possessed, they are misdiagnosed. And people get misdiagnosed in therapy all the time (not just possession).

The sad thing is that the world of psychology (for the most part) doesn't recognize evil in our world, just illness. I went to a Catholic university for my masters in Psychology and I would get openly mocked by my professors for bringing up the subject.

[track2004]

If someone is schizophrenics then they should be treated by psychologists. Period. It is a severe mental problem and does not always entail hearing voices, but even if it does, they should be treated by a psycholoist.

I had a friend who was not schizophrenic but was in a medical study for their medicine, anyway so he was on these drugs and one night he saw the devil at the end of his bed. This kid is completely normal except for these drugs, but he saw the devil. Things in the brain misfire and malfunction and we have stuff that can fix it or control it so people can lead normal lives.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='track2004' post='1202759' date='Feb 22 2007, 07:06 PM']If someone is schizophrenics then they should be treated by psychologists. Period. It is a severe mental problem and does not always entail hearing voices, but even if it does, they should be treated by a psycholoist.

I had a friend who was not schizophrenic but was in a medical study for their medicine, anyway so he was on these drugs and one night he saw the devil at the end of his bed. This kid is completely normal except for these drugs, but he saw the devil. Things in the brain misfire and malfunction and we have stuff that can fix it or control it so people can lead normal lives.[/quote]
How do you know the devil didn't come to visit him? That would have been a perfect time. Isn't it the devils best trick to convince us he doesn't exist?

[Aloysius]

I'm proposing the possibility that they be treated by both psychologists and exorcists. would there be harm to that if there was no demonic influence? it would just include prayers and rituals which may help the person even if only because they begin to believe they're getting better; and then coupled with therapy and such they would be getting better.

I understand that there is a difference between the possessed and the skitzophrenic; but can something be both a real substantial demonic torment or possession AND a real substantial chemical imbalance of the brain like skitzophrenia? just because skitzohrenia is different than most possessions doesn't mean it couldn't have some demonic cause.

[Jaime]

that's an interesting hypothesis. My gut reaction is no that one cannot be simultaneously schizophrenic and possessed. But that's more theological than psychological. I don't think the devil can tempt us if we are not in control of our free will.

But that's just an opinion. I'm mulling it over

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1202777' date='Feb 22 2007, 06:50 PM']that's an interesting hypothesis. My gut reaction is no that one cannot be simultaneously schizophrenic and possessed. But that's more theological than psychological. I don't think the devil can tempt us if we are not in control of our free will.

But that's just an opinion. I'm mulling it over[/quote]
I read something about an infant (not really in control of free will) that was possessed a while back. Of course, I cannot verify the authenticity of the story.

[philosophette]

Very interesting question, Aloysius. I think that in any illness prayers for a person can help. Exorcism is the prayer of the Church and I do not see why some simple prayers for the person would be harmful.. of course, it would depend a lot upon the person.

[Aloysius]

possession in and of itself takes away the excercise of free will. so do psychological illnesses.

but I guess what you're saying is that we must do something with our free will which leads us to get possessed. skitzophrenia and other mental illnesses at least usually are not caused by an excercise of our free will, but by a combination of our genetics and aspects in our environment beyond our control. sometimes it can come about based upon choices that affect the environment which forms us, of course.

but there is possession and then there is torment. demons can torment us without our free will leading to it. demons tormented Padre Pio; he made no excercise of his free will which caused that torment.

so could (at least some) cases of skitzophrenia be demonic torment? do not we do some level of exorcism prayers against torments of devils?

I'm also not entirely sure one must excercise their free will for partial possessions. full possessions must be based upon a full excercise of free will; but can there be a partial possession brought about by evils in the world and in your environment which open you to such things? like how most drug addictions are caused by an original excercise of the free will; but a baby can be born with a level of addiction to drugs. they don't have the type of full addiction that the adult addict has because the adult addict has knowledge of what he must do to fulfill the addiction... the adult has a fuller level of addiction but the baby has the effects of it.

in the same way, an environment couldl cause a type of possession on a person that they did not excercise their will to deserve. only by excercising your will towards something can you become fully possessed; but being involuntarily in an environment can cause the effects of a possession... now that I think about it I might just be describing a type of torment.

[philosophette]

Al, have you read about the three types of demonic activity of that sort? There is possession, obsession, and oppression.

The book, "An Interview with an Exorcist" gives a good outline of the differences and the importance of involving the medical community.

I do not have the book, and I cannot quote it exactly, but when it comes to oppresion and obsession one is from inside (like mental/spiritual torment) and the other is external (physical manifestations/threats).

BTW,... here is a rather interesting website on [url="http://www.catholicwarfare.com/"][b]Catholic Spiritual Warfare.[/b][/url] It has some quotes from JPII.

[Aloysius]

hmm.. no I have not read of them.. I assume torment is still different those types. or at least it is a lesser degree of opression?

how do these three types weigh in on whether we need excercise our free will to be affected by them?

I like the idea of the involvement of the medical community... but I'm not sure I agree that just because one has a mental illness they should not be the subject of some type of exorcisms.

[philosophette]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1202926' date='Feb 22 2007, 11:29 PM']hmm.. no I have not read of them.. I assume torment is still different those types. or at least it is a lesser degree of opression?

how do these three types weigh in on whether we need excercise our free will to be affected by them?

I like the idea of the involvement of the medical community... but I'm not sure I agree that just because one has a mental illness they should not be the subject of some type of exorcisms.[/quote]

Torment different type of oppression? Most likely... but the terms Fr Amorth uses are pretty specific. I wish i had my books! I lent them out and they shall never return... I hate letting people borrow my books!

Well a number of saints are said to have suffered from oppression and obsession. There are even some who were thought to have been possessed at some point (cannot remember who)... St Therese was thought to fall into one of these categories when she was a child and had her mysterious illness...

I do not see why exorcism would not help mental illness... but I think for some people, if they KNEW it was a prayer of exorcism it might exasterbate some of their symptoms, esp if they have an unhealthy fixation on the demonic.

"Interview with an Exorcist" == I recommend more than Amorth's books... or at least as a good starting point.

See if you can get your library to buy it. I got mine too.

Edited February 23, 2007 by philosobrat

[track2004]

Okay so I just want to say all the talk of schizophrenia being caused by deamons is never going to fly in a scientific field because it cannot be falsified. So no one takes it seriously and they never will. Sorry but no real scientist would accept that theory, even if exorcism works sometimes. Lots of therapy works not because it is good therapy, but because the patient wants it to. This can even happen for things that look like types of schizophrenia, but schizophrenia is a very serious disease.

[Aloysius]

I have no interest in convincing science that skitzophrenia is caused by demons any more than I have any interest in convincing science of the existence of the soul. It is not science's domain to determine whether there is a soul or whether there is a demonic influence on skitzophrenia or not; just like it is not science's domain to determine whether there is a God. Science describes the physical world and immediate causation; it cannot explain philosophic ultimate causation. there are the chemical imbalances caused by genes and environment; but why would there be a humanity with faulty genes? and why would there be dangerous environments in human societies? they could come up with immediate causes for those on a physical level; but the philosophic "why"? can never be answered by physical sciences... precisely because they are [i]physical[/i] sciences.

yes, skitzophrenia is a very serious disease and it should be dealt with by psychologists. the question I would pose is: what is the harm in alsos dealing with it by rites of exorcism? even if they only work because they are wanted to work, that would still be a good. and they might possibly work good on supernatural substantial levels which needn't be proven by physical sciences.

[RezaMikhaeil]

Typically I'd say that an "exorcism" might be a bit extreme but simple "prayer" should be encouraged. In regards to psychiatry, that's a very sensetive issue. I'm more into natural methods to treating someone with a mental disorder.

Reza

[Jaime]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1202971' date='Feb 23 2007, 01:49 AM']I have no interest in convincing science that skitzophrenia is caused by demons any more than I have any interest in convincing science of the existence of the soul. It is not science's domain to determine whether there is a soul or whether there is a demonic influence on skitzophrenia or not; just like it is not science's domain to determine whether there is a God. Science describes the physical world and immediate causation; it cannot explain philosophic ultimate causation. there are the chemical imbalances caused by genes and environment; but why would there be a humanity with faulty genes? and why would there be dangerous environments in human societies? they could come up with immediate causes for those on a physical level; but the philosophic "why"? can never be answered by physical sciences... precisely because they are [i]physical[/i] sciences.

yes, skitzophrenia is a very serious disease and it should be dealt with by psychologists. the question I would pose is: what is the harm in alsos dealing with it by rites of exorcism? even if they only work because they are wanted to work, that would still be a good. and they might possibly work good on supernatural substantial levels which needn't be proven by physical sciences.[/quote]


Here's the thing. Schizophrenia is a mental disorder that is truly caused by a chemical imbalance. A lot of people think its people "hearing voices" which does happen. But that is a symptom and there is a whole lot happening besides that. The cliff notes version is that schizophrenics have lost their ability to fiddler extraneous stimuli. For example, while I type this, I can notice that
[list]
[*]my dog is sleeping next to me
[*]the clock is ticking
[*]the furnace came on
[*]there are cars driving outside my door
[*]I notice that I'm sitting on my jacket
[*]etc
[/list]
All of these things and dozens more stimuli are being ignored while I type my response. That way I can focus on the task at hand. If I couldn't fiddler these out, I'd get less done than I do. (Ok I'd get nothing done) Schizophrenics have no ability to fiddler those out and it causes an overload. Its like flipping a breaker switch. To compensate, the mind creates different things to get some semblance of order. But the stuff that the mind creates is so bizarre, that people see it and think "wow that guy is nuts"(which is an accurate assessment)

So in the case of authentic schizophrenia, I don't think an exorcism would do anything positive. It would seem like one delusion fighting with the delusion going on inside the person's head. Drugs are the only thing that will benefit.

Anyway, I thought it would be necessary to give an overview on the disease. Lots of folks (not saying anyone here would) confuse schizophrenia with multiple personalities and other illnesses.

Now folks can "hear voices" and be delusional or possessed. Then it might be helpful.(In the latter case, definitely helpful.

folks can have a delusional disorder that is not a chemical imbalance but brought about by guilty feelings. Guilt is a powerful emotion in creating delusions. I think an exorcism would give a temporary benefit to those people, but I think they would be back for more.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='philosobrat' post='1202912' date='Feb 22 2007, 09:08 PM']Al, have you read about the three types of demonic activity of that sort? There is possession, obsession, and oppression.

The book, "An Interview with an Exorcist" gives a good outline of the differences and the importance of involving the medical community.

I do not have the book, and I cannot quote it exactly, but when it comes to oppresion and obsession one is from inside (like mental/spiritual torment) and the other is external (physical manifestations/threats).

BTW,... here is a rather interesting website on [url="http://www.catholicwarfare.com/"][b]Catholic Spiritual Warfare.[/b][/url] It has some quotes from JPII. [/quote]
also, i think [u]An Exorcist Tells His Story[/u] also talks about the medical community and a priest working together to help a 'patient'

[Aloysius]

I am agreeing that skitzophrenia is directly caused by chemical imbalances, and that those chemical imbalances are cuased by a mix of genetics and environments/experiences and their affect on the brain.

The question is: could all of these physical symptoms have some type of demonic connection?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but not all cases of skitzophrenia can be immediately, if at all, healed by drugs. Most can only be helped and regulated. That is good, of course, but what if in addition to the drugs' help and regulation there were minor exorcisms performed. Not necessarily full-fledged exorcisms where the exorcist engages in conversation the possessed person who speaks with the voice of a demon; but a minor exorcism as in the exorcism of a location or an object applied to the location around the person and even the person's body itself.

I'm not talkng about saying to the skitzophrenic "the power of Christ compels you!"; I'm talking about engaging possible demons around the skitzophrenic in his presence commanding them to leave the skitzophrenic alone... but it could certainly be harmful to speak to the skitzophrenic as if he himself was the demon (as you would speak to someone who has a full-scale possession)

It seems to me that illnesses dealing with the psyche are a direct assault on human free will and human nature; and as such are the result of some evil in some manner. Is it solely the sin of adam? Or is it the meddling of other spiritual beings? These are the philosophical questions that arise from science's good understanding of the physical causes of mental disorders.

Psychological disorders, in striking at the very heart of human nature and free will, are far different on a philosophical level than regular physical illnesses.

Attacking human free will and causing confusion and false perceptions of the world like connections where there are none seems to be the Modus Operandi of Fallen Angels; whereas a mere weakening of free will leaning it towards a tendency to choose evil seems more the MO of Original Sin. I think it might be quite helpful to include minor exorcisms and even sometimes full-fledged exorcisms (depending on the case and exact symptoms) for people even if they are diagnosed with a psychological disorder. Skitzophrenia, even if it does not include hearing voices, could also be helped. Sure, treat them psychologically and let the exorcisms be incorporated in such a way as it is not some competition between the psychologist and exorcist to see who can fix the patient; do not perform explicit exorcisms at a time when the psychologist thinks the person's psyche is not in a state to respond well to hearing the mention of demons... but when the person's psyche is not in a state to respond well to hearing the mention of demons the priest could still say many prayers and rebukes against demons silently.

especially for those psychologically ill who are believers, the presence and imagery of the priest being there along with other symbols of goodness may help him against his delusions if they are only delusions (obviously if they are more than that, we know the priest would also be doing good). careful and precise cooperation between the preist and the psychologist could be quite helpful.

hmmmm

[Mr.Cat]

Demonic influence does not suggest demonic possession or even diabolical possession. Persons can be influenced by evil spirits and thus have conditions relating to them, or it is possible that their condition was caused by them but the influence has later left...

Regardless it does not “hurt” generally speaking to have some prayers said for the person or allowing a Priest (when proper investigation is completed or the person willingly asks for it) to perform such rituals on the person. [b]Although, the Priest should be weary of any misunderstandings the person may have concerning exorcisms that may entice further misunderstanding or emotional harm[/b].

But as Catholics we cannot allow any person to remain under the influence, possession, or more dramatically diabolical possession of an evil spirit for on our part it is a lack of charity. Similarly [b]such exorcisms should be performed with charity in mind to the person being helped[/b]. It would be much like a Priest holding back the facility of confession when there is the concern that an unconfessed mortal sin is present, which in the same spirit would not be charitable to do nothing about.

[b]As a Catholic I obey and submit myself to the laws of the Church regarding exorcism [u]because I do not know everything on the topic and she is the one in rightful judgment in this matter[/u][/b]. P[b][/b]riests and Faithful likewise should obey such directives and those of the Bishop when it is applicable.

[b]We ought to always and frequently as Catholics renounce and reject Satan, the Fallen Angels, and Sin in all their vanities, allurements, and false glory submitting ourselves praising Almighty God in His Holy Church, the Bride of Christ, the Catholic Church[/b].

Edited February 24, 2007 by Mr.CatholicCat

[track2004]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1203582' date='Feb 23 2007, 06:32 PM']I am agreeing that skitzophrenia is directly caused by chemical imbalances, and that those chemical imbalances are cuased by a mix of genetics and environments/experiences and their affect on the brain.

The question is: could all of these physical symptoms have some type of demonic connection?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but not all cases of skitzophrenia can be immediately, if at all, healed by drugs. Most can only be helped and regulated. That is good, of course, but what if in addition to the drugs' help and regulation there were minor exorcisms performed. Not necessarily full-fledged exorcisms where the exorcist engages in conversation the possessed person who speaks with the voice of a demon; but a minor exorcism as in the exorcism of a location or an object applied to the location around the person and even the person's body itself.[/quote]

You're right, not every person with Schizophrenia can be helped immediately with drugs, and honestly none of them are ever "cured" because the medicine only treats the symptoms, we can't "fix" it. The problem with your suggestion about "minor exorcisms" is that with the right drug program they won't see people or hear voices. The drugs fix the chemical imbalance and stop the misfiring and confusion that some schizophrenics have.

The other thing is that schizophrenics may, in some cases, see things or hear voices, but they don't exhibit signs of "possession". They aren't speaking in the voice of a deamon or spewing slip pea soup or anything.

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1203582' date='Feb 23 2007, 06:32 PM']It seems to me that illnesses dealing with the psyche are a direct assault on human free will and human nature; and as such are the result of some evil in some manner. Is it solely the sin of adam? Or is it the meddling of other spiritual beings? These are the philosophical questions that arise from science's good understanding of the physical causes of mental disorders.

Psychological disorders, in striking at the very heart of human nature and free will, are far different on a philosophical level than regular physical illnesses.

Attacking human free will and causing confusion and false perceptions of the world like connections where there are none seems to be the Modus Operandi of Fallen Angels; whereas a mere weakening of free will leaning it towards a tendency to choose evil seems more the MO of Original Sin. I think it might be quite helpful to include minor exorcisms and even sometimes full-fledged exorcisms (depending on the case and exact symptoms) for people even if they are diagnosed with a psychological disorder. Skitzophrenia, even if it does not include hearing voices, could also be helped. Sure, treat them psychologically and let the exorcisms be incorporated in such a way as it is not some competition between the psychologist and exorcist to see who can fix the patient; do not perform explicit exorcisms at a time when the psychologist thinks the person's psyche is not in a state to respond well to hearing the mention of demons... but when the person's psyche is not in a state to respond well to hearing the mention of demons the priest could still say many prayers and rebukes against demons silently.

especially for those psychologically ill who are believers, the presence and imagery of the priest being there along with other symbols of goodness may help him against his delusions if they are only delusions (obviously if they are more than that, we know the priest would also be doing good). careful and precise cooperation between the preist and the psychologist could be quite helpful.

hmmmm[/quote]

Psych disorders do affect the mind and free will differently than physical disorders, but arguably, they both affect free will or at least the mind. I wouldn't go so far to say they are "evil" to any greater degree than physical illnesses. They all stink, but they are part of life and part of being human. Schizophrenia affects 1% of everyone, with no correlation to ethnicity or country or anything. It is part of the human condition, so can it really be evil?

While your MO of Fallen Angles theory is novel I really don't think that is what is going on. Schizophrenia isn't going to make someone evil, just sick. It isn't temptation because you can't say no, so I don't think it'd be legal in the "God vs the Devil" chess game that we are. If going crazy, literally chemical imbalance crazy, gets anyone sent to hell I'll be upset because part of the criteria for being considered mentally unwell is not being able to make the correct decisions because of the disease. I don't think God would hold that against people.