Exorcism And Psychological Illnesses

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote]Schizophrenia is a mental disorder that is truly caused by a chemical imbalance.[/quote] This is what psychiatrists categorize it as, but it's a pseudo science and there is a lack of scientific proof to prove it's a "chemical imbalance". If you were to ask a psychiatrist, 'what chemical specifically is imbalanced' they wouldn't be able to tell you and wouldn't have a method of which to find out.

IE: A Thyroid malfunction causes depression, but it can be scientifically proven [blood test] if the thyroid is producing enough of a particular chemical to keep someone from having malfunction symptoms. In the situation of Schizophrenia [my grandmother has this, that's why I'd done great amounts of research with it] there isn't a blood test that can be taken to prove such a "chemical imbalance" that psychiatrists seem to impliment.

Reza

[Aloysius]

I do not intend to say that the person is evil or will do evil; but any disorder in human nature is certainly an evil. human nature is inherently good and anything which disorders it is evil.

the entire problem of the human condition as all religions try to deal with it is the fact that evil exists in the human condition. those 1% are affected by an evil which harms their way of life and affects their free will. evil is, by definition, disorder. I speak of no culpability (I am elevating the plane to talk about culpability on a cosmic philosophical scale; who is to blame for this disorder? merely fallen human nature? or the effect of demonic influence? perhaps both. certainly it is not the individual with the disorder, that's a given.) but of the mere objective fact that this is evil; just like disease and death are evil. they are contrary to full human naure.

diminishing the ability to excercise free will (what psychological disorders do) is not the same as influencing the free will by conditions (which is what other physical disorders do). being unable to make choices because your brain has disorders in it is a lot different than being unable to walk up a flight of chairs because your legs don't work. one is a direct attack on the free will, the other is just a situation which the free will must apply itself to.

If the person is totally cured by the treatment of psychologists, then there would be no need for such minor exorcisms. If it is regulated by the drugs such that they are no longer hearing voices, exorcisms can still be good. Remember I'm coming from the idea that there are two possible benefits; to help the person overcome their delusions if they are merely psychological, and to combat any spiritual realities which may be at work. The latter could still be served while the person's psychological illness is regulated; even the former even when the person no longer has cognitive delusions because of the chemical regulation.

The normal human way of affecting the chemicals of the brain is through human interaction; rituals, being believed by the afflicted, can have the same types of effects as drugs. I do not suggest replacing drugs completely with rituals, but supplementing them. If a person fights his delusions cognitively as if they are demons, believes that there are rituals which are good and are helping to vanquish his delusions, and is helped by therapy and drug regulation, I believe they would have the highest possible level of recovery. If not for spiritual and unprovable reasons, at least for these reasons that human interaction and belief affects the chemicals of the brain.

[Jaime]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1203780' date='Feb 24 2007, 12:06 AM']This is what psychiatrists categorize it as, but it's a pseudo science and there is a lack of scientific proof to prove it's a "chemical imbalance". If you were to ask a psychiatrist, 'what chemical specifically is imbalanced' they wouldn't be able to tell you and wouldn't have a method of which to find out.

IE: A Thyroid malfunction causes depression, but it can be scientifically proven [blood test] if the thyroid is producing enough of a particular chemical to keep someone from having malfunction symptoms. In the situation of Schizophrenia [my grandmother has this, that's why I'd done great amounts of research with it] there isn't a blood test that can be taken to prove such a "chemical imbalance" that psychiatrists seem to impliment.

Reza[/quote]

Yeah he or she would be able to tell you. Schizophrenia in many cases is caused by a sensitivity to the production of dopamine.

[Aloysius]

very interesting results on this poll (which, on my firefox browser, is randomly shifted over to the right by a whole viewscreen worth of pixels)...

it seems a large majority think psychological diseases like skitzophrenia are sometimes caused by demonic influence in some way. what to do about it seems split...

among those who think all skitzophrenics should receive some type of exorcism, the majority think they should all receive some form of minor exorcism. very few think all skitzophrenics should receive full-fledged exorcism.

among those who think some skitzophrenics should receive some type of exorcism, it appears most think some should receive full fledged exorcisms and some should receive minor exorcisms.

i do like the multiple-choice option for polling... very useful.

[carrdero]

I voted that psychological illnesses are real but that no denomic influences are involved. I believe there are no such things as demons.

[Deb]

Here is what the Mayo says about schizophrenia:

It's not known what causes schizophrenia. However, researchers believe that an interaction of genetics and environment may cause schizophrenia. Problems with certain naturally occurring brain chemicals, including the neurotransmitters dopamine and glutamate, also may contribute to schizophrenia. Neuroimaging studies show differences in the brain structure and central nervous system of people with schizophrenia. While researchers aren't fully certain about the significance of these changes, they support evidence that schizophrenia is a brain disease.



Schizophrenia affects about 1 percent of the general population. In people who have close relatives with schizophrenia, the illness is much more common — about 10 percent. In men, schizophrenia symptoms typically start in the teens or 20s. In women, schizophrenia symptoms typically begin in the 20s or early 30s.

Although the precise cause of schizophrenia isn't known, researchers have identified certain factors that seem to increase the risk of developing or triggering schizophrenia, including:
[list]
[*]Having a family history of schizophrenia
[*]Exposure to viruses while in the womb
[*]Malnutrition while in the womb
[*]Stressful life circumstances
[*]Older paternal age
[*]Taking psychoactive drugs during adolescence
[/list]

I do know someone who became schizophrenic after one too many LSD trips. LSD interupts the interaction between nerve cells and seratonin and creates vivid sights, sounds, feelings that are very real but, do not exist. Everything gets mixed up and you can hear color or see sound. Nothing is real.
Schizophrenia seems to be related to that experience and I really can't see that as being the devil in someone. Just a badly wired brain.
That doesn't mean that some people's mental illnesses aren't touched by the devil. If you are depressed, I believe he can whisper in your ear that you should end it. Does that mean everyone depressed needs an exorcism? No. Prayers should and do help.

I had given my priest a list of about 50 books I had but, hadn't read yet and asked him to mark off the top three to five he thought I should read first at this stage of my conversion or to recommend others that are not on there. The first thing he did was completely cross out Fr. Amorth's book and told me that he did not recommend that I read that at all or not for a long time. He said that if I was interested and wanted a fairly true theological example of exorcism, to watch a movie about someone named Rose? I wrote it down somewhere. He said the drama wasn't accurate but the process was. So, I put Amorth away.

[CatherineM]

My husband has schizophrenia as does his mother, and as did his great-grandmother and a cousin. He has had a priest suggest he have an exorcism. He's also had family members suggest he be sterilized. He opted to do neither. He is well controlled by the medication. It has some nasty side affects at times, and doesn't entirely rid him of the voices, but makes them manageable. Some of the voices tell him that he is going to hell. Some are as if he is actually talking to God. He gives his confessor gray hair. I don't think he is possessed. His mother, on the other hand may be. She refuses to be properly medicated. It is such a hard illness to live with that you look for any excuse to discontinue medication. The idea of saying it is possession, and that an exorcism will mean you no longer have to wear the stigma of the disease like a rock around your neck, is very tempting. It's those temptations that have their origin in the devil, not the disease.

[Socrates]

Last summer, I attended a talk by an experienced exorcist, and asked him a question on this topic. The answer, in short, is that mental illness and demonic possession or obsession are not mutually exclusive, and the devil can in fact use an existing mental or emotional illness as a way to gain a foothold.

The devil can possess mentally ill individuals just as much as sane ones.

This is not of course to say that every mentally ill person is possessed, but mental illness does not in itself rule out demonic activity. Only a genuine exorcist can make the final call on this though.

[carrdero]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1468913' date='Feb 25 2008, 10:07 PM']Last summer, I attended a talk by an experienced exorcist, and asked him a question on this topic. The answer, in short, is that mental illness and demonic possession or obsession are not mutually exclusive, and the devil can in fact use an existing mental or emotional illness as a way to gain a foothold.

The devil can possess mentally ill individuals just as much as sane ones.

This is not of course to say that every mentally ill person is possessed, but mental illness does not in itself rule out demonic activity. Only a genuine exorcist can make the final call on this though.[/quote]
What genuine exorcist has had authoritative experience with genuine demons?

[Deb]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Feb 26 2008, 09:40 AM' post='1469131']
What genuine exorcist has had authoritative experience with genuine demons?


Hmmm, do you mean besides Our Lord Jesus Christ and his Apostles?

[Phazzan]

I don't think there's any relationship between demonic possession and mental illness. There is no emperic evidence to suggest demons even exist, let alone exoricism actually works in "possessed" or mentally ill people. Psychiatry and demonic possession are mutually exclusive in the sense one is a common and accepted as fact in society and the other is extremely rare and based entirely on faith and superstition.

[Fidei Defensor]

lol. demons.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Deb' post='1468568' date='Feb 25 2008, 10:52 AM']Here is what the Mayo says about schizophrenia:

It's not known what causes schizophrenia. However, researchers believe that an interaction of genetics and environment may cause schizophrenia. Problems with certain naturally occurring brain chemicals, including the neurotransmitters dopamine and glutamate, also may contribute to schizophrenia. Neuroimaging studies show differences in the brain structure and central nervous system of people with schizophrenia. While researchers aren't fully certain about the significance of these changes, they support evidence that schizophrenia is a brain disease.
Schizophrenia affects about 1 percent of the general population. In people who have close relatives with schizophrenia, the illness is much more common — about 10 percent. In men, schizophrenia symptoms typically start in the teens or 20s. In women, schizophrenia symptoms typically begin in the 20s or early 30s.

Although the precise cause of schizophrenia isn't known, researchers have identified certain factors that seem to increase the risk of developing or triggering schizophrenia, including: [list]
[*]Having a family history of schizophrenia
[*]Exposure to viruses while in the womb
[*]Malnutrition while in the womb
[*]Stressful life circumstances
[*]Older paternal age
[*]Taking psychoactive drugs during adolescence
[/list]

I do know someone who became schizophrenic after one too many LSD trips. LSD interupts the interaction between nerve cells and seratonin and creates vivid sights, sounds, feelings that are very real but, do not exist. Everything gets mixed up and you can hear color or see sound. Nothing is real.
Schizophrenia seems to be related to that experience and I really can't see that as being the devil in someone. Just a badly wired brain.
That doesn't mean that some people's mental illnesses aren't touched by the devil. If you are depressed, I believe he can whisper in your ear that you should end it. Does that mean everyone depressed needs an exorcism? No. Prayers should and do help.

I had given my priest a list of about 50 books I had but, hadn't read yet and asked him to mark off the top three to five he thought I should read first at this stage of my conversion or to recommend others that are not on there. The first thing he did was completely cross out Fr. Amorth's book and told me that he did not recommend that I read that at all or not for a long time. He said that if I was interested and wanted a fairly true theological example of exorcism, to watch a movie about someone named Rose? I wrote it down somewhere. He said the drama wasn't accurate but the process was. So, I put Amorth away.[/quote]
I love the Mayo clinic's website! So easy to use. It's a great reference for my pathophysiology class!

And the movie he was referring to was probably The Exorcism of Emily Rose. Not for people who are really jumpy or prone to overactive imaginations while having panic attacks in theology class.

[mortify]

Maybe there is a demonic element to the psychological disorder, and an exorcism or prayer of deliverance can't hurt. In fact, I remember reading in Fr Amorth's book that the key signs of demonic possession usually come about during an exorcism, not before.

[mortify]

[quote name='Deb' post='1468568' date='Feb 25 2008, 11:52 AM']<snip>
The first thing he did was completely cross out Fr. Amorth's book and told me that he did not recommend that I read that at all or not for a long time. He said that if I was interested and wanted a fairly true theological example of exorcism, to watch a movie about someone named Rose? I wrote it down somewhere. He said the drama wasn't accurate but the process was. So, I put Amorth away.[/quote]

Did he mention any reason why the book is bad? Fr Amorth is the chief exorcist in Rome and president of an organization of exorcists, seems like the right guy to write about the topic.

I liked Malachi Martin's book _Hostage to the Devil_ but I took that more as an entertaining read than factual exposition.

[carrdero]

[quote name='Deb' post='1469423' date='Feb 26 2008, 07:37 PM']Hmmm, do you mean besides Our Lord Jesus Christ and his Apostles?[/quote]
Hmmm, yes.

Edited February 27, 2008 by carrdero

[Aloysius]

there are many exorcists in the Church who all have experience with genuine demons. of course, you don't believe in demons and as such would not believe that they do have genuine experience, but no less, they work with teams of medical and psychological experts to determine whether there is a medical cause and still find themselves necessary to exorcise.

in any event I find your position quite boring to the thread... it's an interesting discussion amongst those who believe that demons exist as to whether they have any affect on psychological disorders... obviously those who don't believe in demons won't think they have anything to do with such disorders.

I think the important thing is that psychological illnesses are never written off as just demonic and the medical route is taken regardless, but it seems that in addition to such medical things, exorcisms or deliverance prayers cannot hurt. I suppose the cynics of the world would look at that and say that we do not really believe it's demons, but if we hold that the demonic influence has a physical effect then dealing with both the spiritual and the physical would make perfect sense.

[Phazzan]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1469850' date='Feb 27 2008, 10:12 AM']I think the important thing is that psychological illnesses are never written off as just demonic and the medical route is taken regardless, but it seems that in addition to such medical things, [b]exorcisms or deliverance prayers cannot hurt.[/b][/quote]

The film 'The Exorcism of Emily Rose' is based loosely on a true story of a German girl who died as a result of an exorcism performed by local clergy. The court found the priests involved and her parents guilty of manslaughter and the Church later denied she was ever possessed. Therefore, exorcisms can not only hurt, they can kill.

[Paddington]

[quote name='mortify' post='1469666' date='Feb 27 2008, 02:24 AM']Did he mention any reason why the book is bad?[/quote]

I took it as the book not being bad. Just not that useful for growing in the faith.
Good book or not, it is "tabloid-y" compared to well-written summaries of the faith and admonition books like Imitation of Christ.

[carrdero]

[quote]Aloysius writes: there are many exorcists in the Church who all have experience with genuine demons.[/quote]
A person who appears to be possessed by an entity who spews vomit while profanely rejecting Christ isn’t someone I would consider possessed by a demon (this person could possibly be expressing the personality of an ill atheist). I remember a thread on Phatmass where we all couldn’t even determine why the devil was bad or even what evil was so I find it very difficult that anyone has ever become an authority on “demons”. I do know of some people who have had training and experience and are quite adept at handling the mentally challenged. My wife worked at a home with mentally handicapped individuals and can attribute that they display some of the behaviors as expressed with people who have been diagnosed as “possessed” but she certainly has never had the need to call a religious authority to placate them or the need to label them with derogatory terms like “demons”.

[quote]Aloysius writes: you don't believe in demons and as such would not believe that they do have genuine experience, but no less, they work with teams of medical and psychological experts to determine whether there is a medical cause and still find themselves necessary to exorcise.[/quote]

I believe that there are negative and positive entities (in this sense positive and negative does not mean “good” or “bad” but is defined as helpful or unhelpful towards [b][i]BEing[/i][/b][i][/i] or [b][i]relating to[/i][/b][i][/i]) and that these aspects can have an influence on our lives. I must remind you again that this is no reason for name-calling and judgment. If you remember from the abortion thread, I believe that it is not possible for two souls to occupy the same physical body (consider it a perfect natural design defense if you will) which leads me to support that the “demon possession” phenomenon (past and present) is a possible psychological condition or DISease.

I feel that people who have the need, the desire, the hope and faith to believe in the existence of demons (and the evil they supposedly incur and impose) in the absence of substantial or tangible evidence an interesting mental DIS-ease also worthy of further psychological study.

The faith that some people profess in the medical and psychological field is also misplaced. Medical science and psychology may have come a long way but there is still much to be discovered about the human mind and the behavior it produces. Blanketing these issues with the religious faith of demons and the faith in our psychological understanding of mind and medicine certainly isn’t going to help these individuals (in [b][i]relating to [/i][/b][i][/i]the [b][i]BEing[/i][/b][i][/i] of the mentally handicapped it is not positive or conducive but negative and detrimental).

[quote]Aloysius writes: in any event I find your position quite boring to the thread...[/quote]

I’m sure it is. Demons are dramatic, to some exciting. Ever since this conflict was introduced in the Garden of Eden authors have used this device to produce interesting and entertaining struggles in some of the most profound stories throughout our history. The faith that some people profess to good against evil has tickled people’s imaginations and strengthened people’s hope for centuries.

[quote]Aloysius writes: I suppose the cynics of the world would look at that and say that we do not really believe it's demons, but if we hold that the demonic influence has a physical effect then dealing with both the spiritual and the physical would make perfect sense.[/quote]

I am also sure that if it was ever evidenced and concluded that there were no such things as demons that this fact would disappoint many people (and being found incorrect and disappointed isn’t very exciting or a position people strive for). All the stories that people have read, all the movies that they have seen, all the news reports of people doing bad, even going to church would lose great appeal for many. It would mean that people would have to be accountable for themselves and would also take away their sense of judgment and blame.

[quote]Aloysius writes: it's an interesting discussion amongst those who believe that demons exist as to whether they have any affect on psychological disorders...[/quote]

It is an interesting discussion which is why I have entered the debate arena to post my understanding, knowledge and experience on the subject (which appears to be contrary to yours). I am also wondering why no one has thought outside of the standard doctrines but instead have adhered to primitive superstitions and the practice of slinging common, simple judgments. For someone to call another entity (physical or spiritual) a “demon” thoughtlessly carrries the same amount of offense and insult as using racial or ethnic slurs against people of different cultures or the severity of women who profess to disliking being called the “c” word. This cannot be positive towards understanding the cause and cure of psychological illnesses and disorders.

Edited February 28, 2008 by carrdero