If God Didn't Exist

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='JeffCR07' post='1208273' date='Mar 4 2007, 09:43 PM']Any Anselmian, or any philosopher who considers the Ontological Argument sound, would answer this question by saying that it is unanswerable. This is true because we don't really understand the phrase "If God didn't exist..." Such a saying is unthinkable in the same way that the saying "If a square could be round..." is unthinkable. We could never answer the question "if a square could be round, what would geometry be like?" precisely because it is impossible to imagine such a scenario. By definition, a square cannot be round, and so we cannot imagine a square ever being round. In the same way, the Anselmian or anyone holding to the Ontological Argument (myself included) would say that by definition, God cannot [i]not[/i] exist, and so we can't even conceive of what your question actually means.[/quote]

that's pretty awesome. but what would a Thomist say?

Edited March 5, 2007 by StThomasMore

[N/A Gone]

shh

jeff only does Anselm....but he does him AWESOME!!!!!

[MIKolbe]

if there was no God, there would be no atheists - GK Chesterton

[Anomaly]

dairy,
I've been thinking alot about the answer to this question. I think that the real answer is people have a combination of motives for the actions they choose and don't choose.

Many people, whether acknowledged atheists, or believers in God, have at least some sort of life philosophy. They often choose to do 'Good' because they may feel it is connected to the good of the greater society and their own benefit. Human creatures are by nature, social animals. We have a society and interconnected relationships with the greater society. Unless we want to live like cavemen as hermits, we have to go along with societal norms to get along in society. Making choices to do 'good' becomes our habit, our nature, and isn't neccessarily connected with a conscious desire to do God's will.

On the other hand, there are 'gray areas' where we have free choice. Like the old saying says, honesty is doing the right thing because we don't want to get caught. True character is doing the right thing when we know we can get away with doing the wrong thing.

That is the question is see in your poll. If given the choice, would we just follow the letter of the law, or do we live the spirit of the law?

[matthew1618]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1208473' date='Mar 5 2007, 08:56 AM']dairy,
I've been thinking alot about the answer to this question. I think that the real answer is people have a combination of motives for the actions they choose and don't choose.

Many people, whether acknowledged atheists, or believers in God, have at least some sort of life philosophy. They often choose to do 'Good' because they may feel it is connected to the good of the greater society and their own benefit. Human creatures are by nature, social animals. We have a society and interconnected relationships with the greater society. Unless we want to live like cavemen as hermits, we have to go along with societal norms to get along in society. Making choices to do 'good' becomes our habit, our nature, and isn't neccessarily connected with a conscious desire to do God's will.

On the other hand, there are 'gray areas' where we have free choice. Like the old saying says, honesty is doing the right thing because we don't want to get caught. True character is doing the right thing when we know we can get away with doing the wrong thing.

That is the question is see in your poll. If given the choice, would we just follow the letter of the law, or do we live the spirit of the law?[/quote]



(Hey, you know.....cardboard is, uh, one of the coolest things ever
made by paper! Dance on cardboard)

Oh no they broke out the cardboard
Looks like I'm headed to the dance floor

to break it down for 'em once again
Guess what, jigga what, hey, I can do a head-spin
I don't care what jam is on
Cause i ain't going home until the break of dawn
Find myself in tune with the groove


[img]http://www.grooveking.com/blog/uploaded_images/windmill1.jpg[/img]

[Groo the Wanderer]

Sorry Dairy, but this one makes no sense. If God did not exist, neither then would we, or anything for that matter. All of creation is held in being by the divine will of God alone. If He did not will it, it would not exist. Hence,without God, there would be no us to answer the question.

[Anomaly]

Groo,
I think it has long since been established that dairy is hypothetically exploring motivations and reasons for our choices in action.

Thanks for playing. Stop wacking the dead mole.

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='JeffCR07' post='1208273' date='Mar 4 2007, 09:43 PM']Any Anselmian, or any philosopher who considers the Ontological Argument sound, would answer this question by saying that it is unanswerable. This is true because we don't really understand the phrase "If God didn't exist..." Such a saying is unthinkable in the same way that the saying "If a square could be round..." is unthinkable. We could never answer the question "if a square could be round, what would geometry be like?" precisely because it is impossible to imagine such a scenario. By definition, a square cannot be round, and so we cannot imagine a square ever being round. In the same way, the Anselmian or anyone holding to the Ontological Argument (myself included) would say that by definition, God cannot [i]not[/i] exist, and so we can't even conceive of what your question actually means.[/quote]

This seems to be a rather confused piece of reasoning, perhaps you can clarify. There is nothing inconceivable about non-existence, indeed if something can exist its negation is always imaginable. In fact, I thought a crucial part to the ontological argument was the conceivability of the non-existence of God. Whereas it is a contradiction to say a square circle, the same can only be said about God if you were to say something meaningless like "God exists and doesn't exist." Now, if for the Anselmian, God necessarily has to exist (which borders on tautology), then to say that he doesn't exist would translate, I suspect, to the confused statement above, and hence your inability to find any meaning in the topic's question. Yet, if others call that an example of sound thinking, I find it just an incident of cleverly avoiding the issue through semantic manipulation.

[Didacus]

[quote name='track2004' post='1207274' date='Mar 3 2007, 01:17 PM']Arguably if God didn't exist, there wouldn't be a devil.[/quote]

That wasn't part of the hypothesis...

It really goes back to waht G.K. Chesterton was saying, no God, no atheist. No God, well then no devil, so no evil and no good so all the question of being perfect or good or evil would actually not make sense and become in itself inamissible. Heck if God didn't exist, there would be no such question to ask - linking back to Jeff's statement. (and yes, I'm a BIG Anselm fan too, and Jeff introduced me back in the day. Thanks Jeff)



I haven't gotten as far as Thomas Aquinas yet but working on it. next on my list is Augustine (gotta LOVE Augustine!).

[Pontifite 7 of 10]

I'm confused, which one says "I belive God exists" because this could be interprited bolth ways.