93 Phillies Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 I was debating with someone elsewhere about Catholic vs. Protestant. First off, the top part of the quote, he claims that Jesus would not stand for Catholicism's straying from the Bible. And the second part, he questions God's actions in the Old Testament. I feel like he is misinformed, but I myself am too ignorant to set him straight. Can anyone help me out? [quote]Catholicism doesn't really. They are actually reminiscint of the jewish religous leaders that Jesus condemned for making the burdens heavy on the people. They added to god's laws and got slapped by Jesus. ... What is Just? If Christ is YHWH the Jew's god (as the bible would point out sorta) did he not kill the people of the waring nations? Is that just? Just because they were born of a different heritage? Hmmmm well maybe it is but why would that change. Also if Christianity is based off the same God that the Jews had how does the interfaith work? Did not the 10 commandments demand exclusive devotion to one god? So YHWH and or Christ now suddenly thinks that Ganesha is acceptable. Ra is fine sorry for killing you egyptians. Oh dude sorry about all you Baal worshipers I killed y'all OK now just needed this change of the century thing to happen. Sorry bro's. Naw that doesn't add up to me.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 The post reveals a great deal of misunderstanding of Catholicism and of Scripture. First, the burdens of Catholicism are not burdens which the Magisterium gave the faithful to bear but which they themselves would not. Actually, the Magisterium has the heaviest objective burden. Second, the burdens placed on the faithful are the cross they bare. A good exegesis would show that the demands of the Catholic Church are demanded in Scripture: chastity, poverty, and obedience are all present throughout Scripture. So is tithing. Contraception and abortion are both condemned in Scripture. So is homosexuality. The struggles and crosses modern man finds himself bearing are all present in Scripture. Third, the God of the Old Testament is the God of the New Testament. Jesus is YHWH Incarnate. The peoples of the Old Testament were never killed off just because they were a different nationality. In fact, just in order to preserve the Jews from that accusation, they were forbidden to take any booty from their conquered lands (even though they, under King Saul, violated that command and were punished for it), so that it wouldn't appear that they had wicked intentions. God ordered them to exercise His judgment for Him on sinners. If they had not done it, He would have done it with a hailstorm or some other similar plight. However, recognizing that the Hebrews were coming into the land and that He could not only wipe out sin, but also set up His people as an example, He did so. Furthermore, He had everyone killed, which seems horrible, until you consider that the young were killed so that they would not follow their parents' footsteps. While this seems very harsh and cold hearted, we must remember that it is God who is judging here, and it is He who is taking life. That is His right. Furthermore, those who were at that time innocent may still have had the possibility of being saved. Fourth, the interfaith movement is not about telling false religions that they are okay, but about finding common ground in order to bring them to Christ. I hope this helps. I'm moving this to Transmundane Lane so that others may put in helpful input. God bless, Micah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
93 Phillies Posted March 8, 2007 Author Share Posted March 8, 2007 A lot of that sounds really harsh. To me that doesn't sound like a loving God at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 hey 93, how are ya? ok Micah..keep goin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
93 Phillies Posted March 8, 2007 Author Share Posted March 8, 2007 not bad, how bout yourself, rev? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 [quote name='93 Phillies' post='1210038' date='Mar 7 2007, 08:52 PM']A lot of that sounds really harsh. To me that doesn't sound like a loving God at all.[/quote] Let's put it this way: God knows that sin harms us as human persons. He sees the great damage it does to us. Ultimately, He knows the damnation it's going to cost us. We may refuse Him and may send ourselves to hell for it, but He knows when we've reached the point where we wouldn't come back to truth or goodness and He can save us from becoming even worse. He loves us so much that even when we refuse Him completely and are hell-bound, He will try to keep us from going deeper into the pit of hell. Unlike humans, God has a right to kill. The giver of life can take it away. Therefore, if He chooses to kill out of mercy (to keep a soul from going deeper into hell), He can do that. It is not a lack of love on His part that gets us to hell, nor is it a lack of love that on His part that makes us merit death. It is a lack of love on our part. As for children, as I've said, you have to put it in perspective with the afterlife. If those children were allowed to grow up, they would have continued in the sins of their parents and would have gotten themselves into hell. Because they were killed, they may be able to enter Heaven. We've got to keep it all in perspective. Remember that God only ordered those cities destroyed because they were as bad as Sodom and Gemorrah. Ironically, God only kills in order to preserve what is left of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 not bad...graduate this spring. Busy being married and such. its been a while Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
93 Phillies Posted March 8, 2007 Author Share Posted March 8, 2007 [quote name='Raphael' post='1210050' date='Mar 7 2007, 09:02 PM']Let's put it this way: God knows that sin harms us as human persons. He sees the great damage it does to us. Ultimately, He knows the damnation it's going to cost us. We may refuse Him and may send ourselves to hell for it[/quote] Okay, this all makes sense to me. [quote name='Raphael' post='1210050' date='Mar 7 2007, 09:02 PM']but He knows when we've reached the point where we wouldn't come back to truth or goodness and He can save us from becoming even worse. He loves us so much that even when we refuse Him completely and are hell-bound, He will try to keep us from going deeper into the pit of hell.[/quote] So there is a point where God will give up hope for us? [quote name='Raphael' post='1210050' date='Mar 7 2007, 09:02 PM']Unlike humans, God has a right to kill. The giver of life can take it away. Therefore, if He chooses to kill out of mercy (to keep a soul from going deeper into hell), He can do that. It is not a lack of love on His part that gets us to hell, nor is it a lack of love that on His part that makes us merit death. It is a lack of love on our part. As for children, as I've said, you have to put it in perspective with the afterlife. If those children were allowed to grow up, they would have continued in the sins of their parents and would have gotten themselves into hell. Because they were killed, they may be able to enter Heaven. We've got to keep it all in perspective. Remember that God only ordered those cities destroyed because they were as bad as Sodom and Gemorrah.[/quote] A few things about this. A pregnant mother who knows she is a terrible person and will be a terrible mother might be honorable in having an abortion to save her baby from going to hell? Is that an apt analogy? There are different depths to hell? How much worse can a place get than the abscence of God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 [quote name='93 Phillies' post='1210054' date='Mar 7 2007, 09:07 PM']Okay, this all makes sense to me. So there is a point where God will give up hope for us?[/quote] God never gives up hope because God doesn't really have hope. God knows all and therefore has no need for hope (just as in heaven, we will know God is there and will need neither faith, nor hope, but love will remain). While there is no point where a man could not come back to the goodness and the truth, it is God's to judge that. Even if a man is killed and would have repented, God will deal with that soul as He sees fit. The truth still stands that a great evil needed to be wiped out. [quote]A few things about this. A pregnant mother who knows she is a terrible person and will be a terrible mother might be honorable in having an abortion to save her baby from going to hell? Is that an apt analogy?[/quote]First, God is not a terrible person. It has nothing to do with His lack of love or parenting ability. Second, I would never compare it to an abortion because a mother has no right to have an abortion, but God has every right to take life. [quote]There are different depths to hell? How much worse can a place get than the abscence of God?[/quote] There are different depths to hell. We're not sure how it works, but Jesus said that condemnation would be measured out to different people according to their different sins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 Raphel is so smart. I bet he would do awesome in a masters program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 [quote name='Revprodeji' post='1210073' date='Mar 7 2007, 09:24 PM']Raphel is so smart. I bet he would do awesome in a masters program.[/quote] Cut it out. : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
93 Phillies Posted March 8, 2007 Author Share Posted March 8, 2007 (edited) [quote name='Raphael' post='1210062' date='Mar 7 2007, 09:17 PM']God never gives up hope because God doesn't really have hope. God knows all and therefore has no need for hope (just as in heaven, we will know God is there and will need neither faith, nor hope, but love will remain). While there is no point where a man could not come back to the goodness and the truth, it is God's to judge that. Even if a man is killed and would have repented, God will deal with that soul as He sees fit. The truth still stands that a great evil needed to be wiped out. First, God is not a terrible person. It has nothing to do with His lack of love or parenting ability. Second, I would never compare it to an abortion because a mother has no right to have an abortion, but God has every right to take life. There are different depths to hell. We're not sure how it works, but Jesus said that condemnation would be measured out to different people according to their different sins.[/quote] So you're saying that hope by definition is dependent on the lack of knowledge as to what will happen in the future? I agree. Why hasn't God wiped any evil people out recently? About the abortion: of course it isn't her right. No one has the right to kill another human being. I'm not talking about her rights though. Consider this: if she knows she is going to hell and will most likely raise a hell destined child, an abortion would save the child, yes? You can't go to hell if you haven't even been born can you? So she enters a new depth of hell and her baby goes from one of the depths of hell into Heaven. What if God knows that a baby in the womb is going to be evil. After all, He is omniscient. If that baby is aborted, will he/she go to hell? Interesting about the depths of hell. I'd like to read up on that. Are there also depths of Heaven? Edited March 8, 2007 by 93 Phillies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 [quote name='Raphael' post='1210078' date='Mar 7 2007, 08:27 PM']Cut it out. :[/quote] Im bigger than you.. and Im friends with 93 from realgm.com so im sure he is used to tuning me out. I actually need to be the smart one there. Here, I can play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
93 Phillies Posted March 8, 2007 Author Share Posted March 8, 2007 haha sorry, not trying to tune you out. just really trying to figure things out in my head right now. about a lot of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 John tune me out, im just playing with Raphel I like the questions you are asking. Flesh them out some more. This is good stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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