Fundamentalism And Religious Relativism

[thessalonian]

[quote]John 6 is about the HEART.....the eating is spiritual, becoming a Christian, and having the HOLY SPIRIT indwelling.[/quote]

Most certainly a part of it is spiritual but you are denying the other part quite clearly.
Spiritual eating of true flesh? "My flesh is true food. My blood is true drink"

Seems to me that it also implies a deep level of belief. Not just the OSAS sinners prayer and I'm in. How do you know if you have enough belief to have eaten his flesh and drank his blood?

[Budge]

[quote]Seems to me that it also implies a deep level of belief. Not just the OSAS sinners prayer and I'm in. How do you know if you have enough belief to have eaten his flesh and drank his blood?[/quote]

Sure it isnt just reciting a prayer that gets you in but turning yourself over to Jesus Christ i faith full lock stock and barrel.

Anyhow back to one of the points on this thread, WHAT IS WRONG WITH CERTAINTY?

[mariahLVzJP2]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1213411' date='Mar 14 2007, 08:01 AM']The more I read about the kind of relativism promoted by the Unitarian Universalists and the more I see of Christian fundamentalism, the more I realise that the two things are like fascism and communism: ostensibily diametrically opposed but really pretty near identical.

Members of both groups have a tendancy to think in stark black and white, with no room for subtlety and nuance. Religious relativists advocate that everyone else is equally right; the fundamentalists advocate that everyone else is equally wrong. Religious relativists preach that it is impossible to reach anything remotely resembling an answer; fundamentalists believe that they have all the answers. If you want personalcomfort, you turn to the UU Church; if you want personal certainty, you turn to fundamentalism. I know this can't be true of all the people in those churches, but for a lot of them (especially converts) it seems to be too much about ME - [i]my[/i] comfort, [i]my[/i] certainty. Polar opposites working on the same narrow, blinkered principles.

Just a thought.[/quote]
great point!

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]Whats wrong with certainty?[/quote]Funnily enough, I've just addressed this question in a letter to a fifteen-year-old Jewish friend who is exploring Christianity. You should know before reading that I am responding to an e-mail that she forwarded on to me. A classmate of hers, an Evangelical Christian, initiated an unexpected e-mail dialogue with P, declaring that God visited her in a dream, told her to start an e-mail ministry, and to try and save P's soul. This is my response:

[quote]When I was visiting the nuns at Quidenham Carmel, one of them quoted Jesus' words during a talk that she gave: "If you only knew the gift of God!" The truth is that we don't know it - not fully. We can't know it - not yet. He will fill our souls if we really do want Him, but this is a painful and often lengthy process. It's not like filling up a car with petrol. It's like a river swelling to fill a valley. Every year it bursts its banks, every few centuries there is a dramatic earthquake or a subtle shift of the tectonic plates, and in a few thousand years' time - a beautiful lake.

I know this, but it's hard to wait for it to happen sometimes. This is why I have a lot of sympathy for your friend M. In fairness to her, she is making a very easy mistake. Once, when I was fascinated by the occult, I picked up Carol Bolt's 'Book of Answers'. There is a different statement or piece of advice printed on each page. You are meant to hold the book shut in your hands, close your eyes, and concentrate very hard on a question that you want answering. When you feel that the time is right, you open the book at random - and there is your answer. I experimented with this book a couple of times when I was about fifteen. Luckily for me, I was too much in love with my faith not to realise that this book was something that Jesus wasn't pleased to see on my shelf.

No, I don't believe that it was authored by Satan when he was having a literary fit. Its danger lies in the fact that it destroys your trust and tries to replace it with a crude sort of certainity. Trust is crucial to Christianity. It's only recently that I have begun to see exactly how much it means. Certainty was a foreign word to Jesus when He prayed in blood and saline in the Garden of Gethsemane. Trust was the only language that He spoke.

A lot of Christians, like M, are guilty of turning to the Bible in the same way that I turned to that pagan Book of Answers. This attitude suffocates trust. The 'certainty trap' is something that you must never fall into. As soon as people start to believe that they have all the answers, they don't let God (or anyone else) get a word in edgeways. I think you've already found this one out for yourself.[/quote]

I haven't interfered with P's dialogue with her Evangelical classmate, although I have made it clear to P that I am a Catholic and that when she studies the Bible alongside me I will approach it from a Catholic perspective. She has come to Mass with me twice and has attended a mainline evangelical Protestant church on several occasions, so she is growing familiar with the differences in theology.

Just in case anyone is interested in the outcome of these discussions that I've been having with P, here is something she wrote to me after her discussion with her Evangelical classmate: "If I had to pick a Christian to follow I'd stick with you." She has also decided to come and celebrate the Easter Tridiuum in my house.

Edited March 26, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[Budge]

[quote]Whats wrong with certainty?
Funnily enough, I've just addressed this question in a letter to a fifteen-year-old Jewish friend who is exploring Christianity. You should know before reading that I am responding to an e-mail that she forwarded on to me.[/quote]You didnt answer the question about certainty.

I have a Jewish friend too from the internet, that I have told her I believe one needs faith in Jesus Christ to be saved. She didnt end the friendship or get offended like so many Catholics are worried about.

Sad to say your Jewish friend if she becomes Catholic will be remaining under just a different version of the "law" rather then realizing the truth of the gospel of Grace.

One reason the Jewish people have had such a hard time with Christianity is their oppression, often times at the hand of Rome.
[quote]
No, I don't believe that it was authored by Satan when he was having a literary fit. Its danger lies in the fact that it destroys your trust and tries to replace it with a crude sort of certainity.[/quote]

Satan hates certaintity. In fact another word I could use here for certaintity is rock solid faith. For example I am sure 100% from intense study of scripture that it is all TRUE. Catholics are probably shocked by that pronouncement.

Trust in Christ is not being left to float on a cloud, in the land of fuzzy-wuzzy and vagueness but know He is truly there for you.
[quote]As soon as people start to believe that they have all the answers, they don't let God (or anyone else) get a word in edgeways. I think you've already found this one out for yourself.[/quote]

If one doesnt have a foundation for all the answers ie in my case...God's Word, then they are lost and prone to any wind...You either have a ROCK foundation for your faith--CERTAINTY, or you are on sinking sand where at the first time of trouble your faith will collapse.
'
You may very well be a NICE person, but then there are very NICE Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons....so Im going to pray that your friend has the gospel of grace told to her and she is lead to truly become a Christian.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]You didnt answer the question about certainty.[/quote]I did, Budge. But I didn't paint it in stark black and white, so you are struggling to understand my answers.

[quote]For example I am sure 100% from intense study of scripture that it is all TRUE. Catholics are probably shocked by that pronouncement.[/quote]

No, I'm not shocked by that pronouncement. I believe it too. What I DON'T believe is that you, as a human being, fully understand that truth. This is what I mean when I say that there are no subtleties within fundamentalism. Everything has got to be split up into very crude categories. I've seen this from my attendance at fundamentalist Bible studies, where the leader actually uses a checklist. If you say something that isn't on the checklist, you are ignored, and the leader goes on prodding people until we've given the 'right' answers.

[quote]Satan hates certaintity.[/quote]I'm not acquainted with Satan's personal tastes, but after reading the kinds of temptations he offered Jesus in the desert I would say that he gets on very well with it. It was Jesus' trust that defeated him.

[quote]One reason the Jewish people have had such a hard time with Christianity is their oppression, often times at the hand of Rome.[/quote]

Ah, the gospel according to Jack Chick. That's good for a laugh whenever I'm feeling a bit down, but as far as serious historical scholarship goes, it's not worth much.

[quote]If one doesnt have a foundation for all the answers ie in my case...God's Word, then they are lost and prone to any wind...You either have a ROCK foundation for your faith--CERTAINTY, or you are on sinking sand where at the first time of trouble your faith will collapse.[/quote]My rock is called trust. I trust Jesus through everything. This does not mean that I have the [i]answers[/i] to everything. I don't have an answer for why one of my friends suffered nearly seven years of sexual abuse from the age of seven, developed a cocktail of mental illnesses as a result, and has now been in a psychiatric hospital for the past eighteen months. She asked me why she had to hurt so much. I told her I didn't know. But I do have trust - trust that God will care for her and that His will is good.

[quote]You may very well be a NICE person, but then there are very NICE Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons....so Im going to pray that your friend has the gospel of grace told to her and she is lead to truly become a Christian.[/quote]

It's nothing to do with niceness.

Edited March 26, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[Budge]

If you disdain certainty, then you embrace doubt. That is not being black and white, just reality.

I believe in fact that this Catholic disdain for certainty is one reason false religions and philosophies have been able to hold so much sway in Catholicism.

After all why draw a line in the sand, if you "could be wrong"

Being SURE of something is for those Bible banging fundies!
[quote]

[u]What I DON'T believe is that you, as a human being, fully understand that truth[/u][/quote].

Who said that? There is more scripture for me to study. But I can know truth via Gods Word. I know Jesus Christ is God. That is truth, no quibbling there.

Unlike you though I believe there is TRUTH. What you call subtleties, I call lines of demarcation. If everything is nuanced {yes I know life is complex} even all things of faith, why believe anything because you are so UNSURE. This is why Catholics can so easily accept the gods of false religions, actually demons and false spirits as being "God" because of this strain of "doubt". You are actually taught to not stand on anything concretely because that could be presumption and how dare you as a human being think you know what truth is? [Is that what you are telling me after all?]

[quote]I'm not acquainted with Satan's personal tastes, but after reading the kinds of temptations he offered Jesus in the desert I would say that he gets on very well with it. It was Jesus' trust that defeated him.
[/quote]You think Jesus only "trusted" or that Jesus KNEW.

You know true FAITH is based on FACTS, not on FEELINGS.

That is what Im talking about having a true foundation.

[quote]
Ah, the gospel according to Jack Chick. That's good for a laugh whenever I'm feeling a bit down, but as far as serious historical scholarship goes, it's not worth much.[/quote]

Are you trying to tell me Jews suffering no persecution at the hands of Catholicism?
[quote]My rock is called trust. I trust Jesus through everything. This does not mean that I have the answers to everything. I don't have an answer for why one of my friends suffered nearly seven years of sexual abuse from the age of seven, developed a cocktail of mental illnesses as a result, and has now been in a psychiatric hospital for the past eighteen months. She asked me why she had to hurt so much. I told her I didn't know. But I do have trust - trust that God will care for her and that His will is good.[/quote]

Actually any student of the Bible, could tell you what happened to your poor friend.

Its called EVIL, evil in this world overtaking a innocent human victim and mental illness is directly linked to sexual abuse.

I will pray for her. Actually one can provide more answers, this takes time to learn then just TRUST, this is where Gods Word comes in as a foundation to stand on even when times are so tough, it isnt funny. This is what I am talking about when people face hard times, they need more then a pat on the shoulder and "trust" in God. I know you meant well, but what I am talking about is the explanations of why there is horrible suffering in the world and what it means are right in the Bible.Those who suffer need Gods Truth, CERTAINTY. KNOWING WHAT WAS TRUE and STANDING ON THE WORD, even if FEELINGS SAID OTHERWISE.

Thats right in Gods Word.
[b]
Luk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.[/b]

[b]
Comfort from Recalling God's Mighty Deeds
To the chief Musician, to Jedu'thun, A Psalm of Asaph.

1 I cried unto God with my voice,

even unto God with my voice;
and he gave ear unto me.
2 In the day of my trouble I sought the Lord:

my sore ran in the night, and ceased not:
my soul refused to be comforted.
3 I remembered God, and was troubled:

I complained, and my spirit was overwhelmed.
Selah.
4 Thou holdest mine eyes waking:

I am so troubled that I cannot speak.
5 I have considered the days of old,

the years of ancient times.
6 I call to remembrance my song in the night:

I commune with mine own heart:
and my spirit made diligent search.
7 Will the Lord cast off for ever?

And will he be favorable no more?
8 Is his mercy clean gone for ever?

Doth his promise fail for evermore?
9 Hath God forgotten to be gracious?

Hath he in anger shut up his tender mercies?
Selah.
10 And I said, This is my infirmity:

but I will remember the years of the right hand of the Most High.
11 I will remember the works of the LORD:

surely I will remember thy wonders of old.
12 I will meditate also of all thy work,

and talk of thy doings.
13 Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary:

who is so great a God as our God?
14 Thou art the God that doest wonders:

thou hast declared thy strength among the people.
15 Thou hast with thine arm redeemed thy people,

the sons of Jacob and Joseph.
Selah.
16 The waters saw thee, O God,

the waters saw thee;
they were afraid:
the depths also were troubled.
17 The clouds poured out water:

the skies sent out a sound:
thine arrows also went abroad.
18 The voice of thy thunder was in the heaven:

the lightnings lightened the world:
the earth trembled and shook.
19 Thy way is in the sea,

and thy path in the great waters,
and thy footsteps are not known.
20 Thou leddest thy people like a flock

by the hand of Moses and Aaron.[/b]

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]If you disdain certainty, then you embrace doubt. That is not being black and white, just reality.

I believe in fact that this Catholic disdain for certainty is one reason false religions and philosophies have been able to hold so much sway in Catholicism.

After all why draw a line in the sand, if you "could be wrong"[/quote]Budge, this is exactly what I mean when I say that fundamentalism does not allow for subtlety or nuance. You read what I wrote about trust and immediately decided to translate my answer into a matter of two polar opposites: certainty versus doubt. Black versus white. You and I mean two different things when we use words like 'certain' and 'sure', so perhaps we had better clear up definitions to make sure that we're using a common vocabulary.

Like you, I know that Jesus is the Son of God. But I don't know this is in the same way that I know that 2 + 2 = 4 or that I will get wet if I go out in the rain without a coat. Can you at least accept that there are different ways of knowing things? If you can realise that, then you will have a better chance of understanding my viewpoint. This doesn't mean that religious or spiritual knowledge is somehow inferior to the knowledge that you gain through sensory experience or the findings of theoretical mathematics. But the fact remains that they are fundamentally different.

[quote]You know true FAITH is based on FACTS, not on FEELINGS.[/quote]

No. It is not based on fact or feelings. It is based on trust. Without trust, no one can come to realise that the Crucifixion and the Resurrection were real, factual events - it is no use in giving a lesson in Christian history to an atheist. He or she is likely to respond, "Well, the Muslims say that x and y happened. How do I know that what you're saying is the right version?" But trust opens the heart to the workings of the Holy Spirit. Before you can be convinced of Christianity's historical truth, you have to be [i]open[/i] to it. This means total sacrifice. Total surrender. And total trust.

There [b]is[/b] an absolute truth (Catholicism is absolutist in ethics and theology) but while we can conceive of much of this intellectually, there is a lot that we can't fully grasp. For example, I know that God exists as a Trinity. I can provide all sorts of philosophical and Scriptural proofs to show that this is the case. But do I really know what the Blessed Trinity actually [i]is[/i]? No. That can't be known this side of Heaven. We won't know fully until we see Him. Until then, we simply have to trust in Him. You, however, seem to be approaching the Bible in the same way that I approach my textbooks on theoretical linguistics - I don't know everything yet, but I cram it all into my head and somehow 'understand' it.

[quote]Are you trying to tell me Jews suffering no persecution at the hands of Catholicism?[/quote]Oh, they've suffered persecution at the hands of Catholics and Protestants alike. (Martin Luther wasn't very kind-hearted in the treatment he prescribed for Jews, was he?) But this doesn't mean that either Catholicism or the various Protestantisms actively encourage and promote the persecution of Jews. There are Christians who try to blow up abortion clinics that have people inside, but this does not mean that Christian doctrine supports the notion that the mass murder of abortion clinic personnel is a righteous act. It's one thing to suffer at the hands of a Christian and quite another to suffer at the hands of [i]Christianity[/i].

Let's also not forget the large number of Christians, Catholic and Protestant alike, who actively worked against Nazi anti-Semitism in Nazi-occupied Europe. I was writing an article about the work of Titus Brandsma (Catholic priest martyred for aiding Jews) only this morning. Anyhow, that isn't relevant to this discussion. To move on...

[quote]Actually any student of the Bible, could tell you what happened to your poor friend.

Its called EVIL, evil in this world overtaking a innocent human victim and mental illness is directly linked to sexual abuse.[/quote]

My friend, huddled at the end of her hospital bed the day after her second near-fatal suicide bid: "Why does it have to hurt so much?"

Me: "It's called EVIL."

That is not an answer. It is a pitiful, poor, crude excuse for an answer. I know it is evil; I think my friend probably realised that one for herself when she was raped at seven years old. But simply putting a label on it and declaring [i]what[/i] it is doesn't even touch her question, which began with, "Why...?" Instead, it triggers a fusillade of other questions. Why has it happened to me? Why does God allow this if He's good? Why am I not better yet?

These are the questions that have preoccupied fallen humanity for millennia. There are Bible verses that I could glibly fire off in reply to these painful questions - slick, smart 'answers' that would immunise me against my friend's pain by reassuring me that I am In Control, that I Have an Answer for Everything. I did resort to that for a while. I soon realised that it is impossible to sit at the bedside of someone who is in such terrible pain and cling on to this security blanket. I abandoned my safety for the sake of my love of her. Now I sit with her quietly in her darkness, content to hold her hand and to pray for her with all my heart. This is the cross. This is trust. This is faith. This is Christianity.

[Budge]

[quote]
Budge, this is exactly what I mean when I say that fundamentalism does not allow for subtlety or nuance. You read what I wrote about trust and immediately decided to translate my answer into a matter of two polar opposites: certainty versus doubt. Black versus white. You and I mean two different things when we use words like 'certain' and 'sure', so perhaps we had better clear up definitions to make sure that we're using a common vocabulary.[/quote]When you say certainty is bad, you are basically saying doubt has a place in your heart, whether total or "nuanced doubt"
[quote]
Like you, I know that Jesus is the Son of God. But I don't know this is in the same way that I know that 2 + 2 = 4 or that I will get wet if I go out in the rain without a coat.[/quote]

I actually know it as much as 2+2=4, believe it or not.

I believe that faith is to be based on FACT not FEELINGs.

You forget I used to be an pagan UU, and one thing I did was study the Bible for years to "disprove" it.

Feelings and nice fuzzy wuzzy platitudes, arent going to cut it anymore.
[quote]

Can you at least accept that there are different ways of knowing things? If you can realise that, then you will have a better chance of understanding my viewpoint. This doesn't mean that religious or spiritual knowledge is somehow inferior to the knowledge that you gain through sensory experience or the findings of theoretical mathematics. But the fact remains that they are fundamentally different.
[/quote]I can accept God may lead people via different ways to the gospel, but heres one thing, are you willing to learn the truth? or just stop and close your eyes and heart.
[quote]
No. It is not based on fact or feelings. It is based on trust. Without trust, no one can come to realise that the Crucifixion and the Resurrection were real, factual events - it is no use in giving a lesson in Christian history to an atheist. He or she is likely to respond, "Well, the Muslims say that x and y happened. How do I know that what you're saying is the right version?" But trust opens the heart to the workings of the Holy Spirit. Before you can be convinced of Christianity's historical truth, you have to be open to it. This means total sacrifice. Total surrender. And total trust.[/quote]

Again you forget I used to be an athiest. I already been down that road. I studied enough false religions to know they couldnt back up their claims, Christianity does. 12 men were willing to die, and others for what they saw--regarding the Resurrection.
The deeper you study the Bible, the more your faith will be strengethened and it will be based on facts not just feelings. Faith is to be based on the FACTS of the Word of God.

Do you believe what you believe because you of how you "feel" or because you take others words for it, or because you were born into Catholicism or have you truly examined it? You are talking to a person who totally rejected Christianity for years and studied other religions while UU. They didnt cut the mustard, Christianity did. There are inherently two religions in the world...WORK YOUR WAY TO HEAVEN, or BE SAVED IN JESUS CHRIST.

This idea of "trust" leads you open for false teachers to lead you which ever which way, with no foundation and no guide--ie the Word of God, you are left open to whatever.

The Bible teaches "the heart is a deceitful thing" that is for EVERYONE and that means unless you are standing on the Word, emotions and the rest will lead you down the wrong road.

[quote]
There is an absolute truth (Catholicism is absolutist in ethics and theology) but while we can conceive of much of this intellectually, there is a lot that we can't fully grasp. [/quote]You can understand, thats the misonmer Catholicism teaches. One CAN spend a whole life time learning but in the Word, there is understanding to be gained.

We can do the Jewish discussion in another thread...
[quote]

That is not an answer. It is a pitiful, poor, crude excuse for an answer. I know it is evil; I think my friend probably realised that one for herself when she was raped at seven years old. But simply putting a label on it and declaring what it is doesn't even touch her question, which began with, "Why...?" Instead, it triggers a fusillade of other questions. Why has it happened to me? Why does God allow this if He's good? Why am I not better yet?[/quote]

Because sin entered this world and brought with it, disease, death, and other horrors even for the innocent. Its right there in the book of Job and other explanations.

Yes sit by your friend and support her that is important to be there for her but dont let her believe Satan's lies about suffering or why this happened to her. She will have no healing unless she realizes she had nothing to be blamed for.

Your friend doesnt have to grab onto the breakable thread of "trust" as she suffers hoping things "might" work out for her, but of Gods truth in His Word. Hebrews 13:5. That is the core of real TRUST. Ones feelings when one suffers can take one AWAY from God. Something all Christians need to train themselves in and I include myself is standing on the Word, despite emotions of depression and despair and why is God allowing this to happen to me?" or "God doesnt care about me" or even horrors of horrors "God hates me".

I used to ask those same questions....and I had to learn myself what Gods Word says about those things and why evil has been allowed to happen in this world. This doesnt mean I know everything, but people are not getting strong Biblical answers or a foundation to encounter adversity anymore. This included me as I was growing up.

[Guest T-Bone]

If it's based on fact, it's not faith.

[quote name='dictionary.com']faith:

1. confidence or trust in a person or thing
2. belief that is not based on proof
3. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.[/quote]

[Budge]

It almost seems here folks are going by #2 far more then 1 or 3
[quote]3. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.[/quote]

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Budge' post='1222674' date='Mar 29 2007, 10:07 PM']It almost seems here folks are going by #2 far more then 1 or 3[/quote]


Who? Who are these folks?