Mortal Sin

[Thy Geekdom Come]

I'm doing a presentation here on mortal sin and I'm wondering what questions people would have if I was presenting to them...anyone have questions about or relating to mortal sin, sin, justice, or mercy?

Also, any songs (esp. Praise & Worship) related to sin and mercy?

[Noel's angel]

I'd say things like how sin affects our relationship with God, why we need to go to Confession and not just say sorry to God on our own, what constitutes a mortal sin...things like that usually crop up.

[thessalonian]

Considering the three criteria for mortal sin can we ever KNOW we are in a state of mortal sin?

[theculturewarrior]

Music: Allegheri's Miserere. It's perfect for this time of year.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1215935' date='Mar 19 2007, 04:29 PM']Considering the three criteria for mortal sin can we ever KNOW we are in a state of mortal sin?[/quote]
Actually, St. Alphonsus said that if you don't know you've sinned mortally, you haven't (assuming you're not feigning ignorance), because "mortal sin is such a terrible monster that it cannot exist in the soul without the soul's knowing it." It makes sense, given that the three requirements include knowledge that you're doing something gravely wrong.

Of course, I appreciate the question...I'll see where I can work it into my presentation. I wasn't sure if you were asking me or if you were giving me the question for use in my presentation, lol.

[Old_Joe]

In case you don't cover it your presentation, but here's a question I've heard from many protestants: Where in the Bible does it make a distinction between mortal sin and venial sin?

[Jaime]

Thess makes a good point. I was listening to a lecture by Dr Fish (He teaches at St Paul Sem) and he was saying that its extraordinarily difficult to commit a mortal sin defined by the criteria. I need to ask him more about that because he's pretty sincere about it.


It always seemed pretty simple to me. Almost too simple.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1215901' date='Mar 19 2007, 02:17 PM']I'm doing a presentation here on mortal sin and I'm wondering what questions people would have if I was presenting to them...anyone have questions about or relating to mortal sin, sin, justice, or mercy?

Also, any songs (esp. Praise & Worship) related to sin and mercy?[/quote]
I've been fixated on mercy lately, and grace, and the following line from Easter Vigil Mass has been on my mind: "Oh happy fault, O necessary sin of Adam, which gained for us so great a Redeemer!"

So I've been pondering something as I've thought on this line: [i]Was[/i] Adam's sin necessary as a precursor to the Incarnation?

Part of what has gotten me wondering about this is the Theology of the Body ... the symbolism of marriage and the two becoming one flesh, the primordial sacrament which points to Christ, was given [i]before[/i] the fall. So is it possible that Adam's sin did not necessitate the Incarnation, but that the Incarnation was intended all along, as was our election in Christ, and Adam's sin altered the plan by introducing the need for redemption? Am I even making sense?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1216327' date='Mar 20 2007, 12:17 AM']I've been fixated on mercy lately, and grace, and the following line from Easter Vigil Mass has been on my mind: "Oh happy fault, O necessary sin of Adam, which gained for us so great a Redeemer!"

So I've been pondering something as I've thought on this line: [i]Was[/i] Adam's sin necessary as a precursor to the Incarnation?

Part of what has gotten me wondering about this is the Theology of the Body ... the symbolism of marriage and the two becoming one flesh, the primordial sacrament which points to Christ, was given [i]before[/i] the fall. So is it possible that Adam's sin did not necessitate the Incarnation, but that the Incarnation was intended all along, as was our election in Christ, and Adam's sin altered the plan by introducing the need for redemption? Am I even making sense?[/quote]

I follow the Franciscan-Bonaventurian tradition and, I know I'm going to get carp for this, but I think it's much more alive than Thomism.

Anyway, this tradition is that the Incarnation was always intended (of course, God always knew that man would sin), but that it would have been intended even if man hadn't sinned. What you've said about TOTB has crossed my mind, too, and I agree with your conclusions.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1216170' date='Mar 19 2007, 08:54 PM']Thess makes a good point. I was listening to a lecture by Dr Fish (He teaches at St Paul Sem) and he was saying that its extraordinarily difficult to commit a mortal sin defined by the criteria. I need to ask him more about that because he's pretty sincere about it.
It always seemed pretty simple to me. Almost too simple.[/quote]
You know, I've struggled a lot with this. First, the Church doesn't seem to say exactly what constitutes grave matter. It says that a violation of the Ten Commandments does, but that's unclear because all sins can be categorized somewhere under the Ten Commandments. Second, the Church doesn't define full knowledge. Is full knowledge when you know that something is a grave matter, even if you aren't conscious of the fact that it is at the time? Is full knowledge a conscious awareness that what you're doing is grave matter? The second would make it really, really difficult for anyone pursuing a life of virtue to fall into mortal sin...it would almost require pure, unmitigated hatred of God to sin mortally, if that's the case.

I wish there were more definitive answers on this. It's hard on us scrupulants.

[theculturewarrior]

Music: Thomas Tallis's Lamentations.

[CoffeeCatholic]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1216170' date='Mar 19 2007, 10:54 PM']Thess makes a good point. I was listening to a lecture by Dr Fish (He teaches at St Paul Sem) and he was saying that its extraordinarily difficult to commit a mortal sin defined by the criteria. I need to ask him more about that because he's pretty sincere about it.
It always seemed pretty simple to me. Almost too simple.[/quote]


I don't know, Dr. Fish, it's way too easy for me. Way too easy.

[prose]

You are my king by the Newsboys is a great one for this.

[Mr.Cat]

[u][b]How I was taught and understand it...[/b][/u]

Mortal Sin:
1. Grave Matter (or Grave Intention)
2. Knowledge of the Wrong (and Sufficient Reflection)
3. Consent of Will[quote][b]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/b]
[b]1858[/b] Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother." The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.
[url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1858.htm"]http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1858.htm[/url][/quote]Grave Matter generally is deemed as those things that fall under the Two Great Commandments, the Ten Commandments, the Precepts of the Church, and the Seven Deadly Sins. Generally we know of what is grave matter because it is objectively evil and by looking to the oral traditions of the Catholic Church including the Sacred Scripture themselves, also many Examination of Consciences list properly grave matters. Although, I wrote “grave intention” since it is always possible to commit a mortal sin if we commit a sin (which is not grave matter) with spite and hatred of God. [quote][b]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/b]
[b]1860[/b] Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. B[u]ut no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man[/u]. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. [b][u]Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest[/u][/b].
[url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1860.htm"]http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1860.htm[/url][/quote]Knowledge of the Wrong in matters of morality according to the Catholic Church all people are aware at some level or another but because of Original Sin we suffer from our consciences being unformed. Because of this reason cultural and religious limitations of some people may cause the gravity of knowledge to decrease but it never states it is no longer objectively “grave matter” also it is very careful to say it is no longer a mortal sin, so each case ought to be taken case by case by a formed conscience. Then I wrote “sufficient reflection” since all people are in some way aware of the moral law it then becomes how much they were really aware of it being wrong, even traditional Catholicism teaches that if the person honestly and truly thought the sin is not grave matter or not a sin at all then it fails this requirement.
[quote][b]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/b]
[b]1859[/b] Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. [u]It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice[/u]. [b]Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin[/b].
[url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1859.htm"]http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1859.htm[/url][/quote]Consent of will must be “complete” or “full” as the Church teaches to be mortally wrongful although I think many people use this stipulation to rationalize sin away. The Catholic Church for centuries advised the faithful to frequent confession of their sins, even where possible weekly and daily. To do anything of the will, such as stand up, it takes a full consent of the will (generally speaking). At least I hope if you punch me in the face it wasn’t one of those “oh, I hadn’t fully decided yet but I did anyways.” I think consent of the will then people rationalize it into “good intentions” while the Church has never taught that a sin committed in good intentions is no longer sinful. This is an open door to massive rationalization; which reminds me of the Islamic view of masturbation (as I was taught in school and from an RCIA Director). They find it morally wrong unless the husband becomes tempted to other women, then he is free to commit such a wrong to help preserve the martial relationship. If you break it down any sin could be rationalized into good intentions (since it is very rare that people do something in wrongful intentions).

But at the same time I think some people become too scrupulous (which today I find more rare than common) where they accuse themselves of sin in dreams, involuntary actions, where they were not in control of the situation, or so on. Like I said before, it requires a formed conscience and in cases of scrupulosity a good confessor to help discern the gravity of the sin. I however hold the opinion (traditional opinion) if that a sin cannot be sufficiently discerned as mortal or venial that it should be brought to the confessional anyways to show a complete hatred of sin and the wish to not only amend those parts of our life that are mortally wrong but even those small things that offend God even though not sever.

The Sacrament of Penance is the masterpiece of Almighty God’s goodness and mercy, it seems unusual then that some people would shy away from this Sacrament most of all because we are taught at General Judgment all our sins will be made known to mankind. So regardless, that little Priest will hear your sins either now or later (which I would rather them be heard forgiven rather than not forgiven).

[b]But like I said those are my thoughts...[/b] To answer the question before...

I think that most people’s questions when you start talking about confession, after getting through the theological and apologetically tuned side of it, you get into the matter of “what should I confess” and “how should I confess it.”

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='prose' post='1216496' date='Mar 20 2007, 01:50 PM']You are my king by the Newsboys is a great one for this.[/quote]

Ah. Yes, that's probably the stuff he is looking for. I was just thinking since Raphael knows Latin he might to hear some songs in Latin. Oh well.