Question On The Eucharist...

[tonyofpadua]

Hi gang,

I don't post here a lot but read quite frequently and usually only post when I need opinions or answers regarding an issue in my rather liberal university parish. I'd sincerely apreciate it if you could help a brother out.

Anyway, I'm on a student committee to plan a retreat in the fall for the youth of the parish on campus. My big goal was to institute Eucharistics Adoration, as this wasn't done in the past and I think a greater understanding and devotion to the Eucharist would be extremely beneficial. Anyway, the adult leader of the group has said adoration is a "possibility" but tends to throw it in as simply "one other type of prayer" (the retreat is all about prayer). She says the eucharist is great, but some people can;t see Jesus in it and are more comfortable seeing Jesus in things like nature. Ayway, here is an email that was sent to her (by a friend of mine):

[quote]Hello [her name],

After the meeting tonight I was deeply troubled. Please correct me if this
is a misquotation, but if I remember correctly you said that

"Chist is not only present in the Eucharist. Christ is present in
everything good. He is present in the people around us, he is present in
nature -- Some theologians would say that we ought to genuflect before other
people and perhaps even before trees."

While this seemed contrary to what I have always been taught, I did not
challenge this for the sake of expediency. I did, however, feel that I was
obligated to try to better understand your meaning.

When I came back to my room, I read through the section in the Catechism on
the Eucharist. This is what I found:

1374 -- The mode of Christ's presence under the Eucharistic species is
unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection
of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend." In the
most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with
the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole
Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained." "This presence is
called 'real' - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of
presence as if they could not be 'real' too, but because it is presence in
the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which
Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present."

As I understand this passage, the Church teaches that there is something
unique about Christ's presence in the Eucharist. Thus, it merits unique
worship. I feel that this was not made clear at the meeting.

I would like to email this to the rest of the group for discussion, but I
thought I should ask you first. Doesn't this passage contradict what you
said?

Please help me to understand. I only want my brothers and sisters to
understand the depth and beauty of our Catholic faith -- to see the
Eucharist for what it truly is: Jesus, our God.[/quote]

To which this woman responded...

[quote]Hi [his name]I think you aren't the only one with these questions so I will go
ahead and copy the entire retreat team.

This is an involved and deep subject. One that I am not sure can adequately
be expressed in an email. I will try to rearticulate what I was saying in
brief. Perhaps if there are further questions it might be good to set a
separate time aside for this discussion earlier on a Sunday where those
interested can attend an in depth discussion.

First I think it is important to recognize that the Source and Summit of our
Catholic Faith and Worship is the Mass - not Eucharistic Adoration.
Eucharistic Adoration is a devotion that developed out of the Church's deep
appreciation and understanding that Jesus becomes present in the Bread and
Wine shared because of our Liturgy.

As we 'adore' this special presence of Christ in the host it is important to
recognize how it got there - - though the Liturgy itself. The definition of
Liturgy is 'The work of the people' And so in our Adoration of Christ in
the Eucharist (which means 'thanksgiving') we recognize and give thanks that
God/Jesus takes 'real' presence (in the host) because of the meeting of God
with his people that takes place at our gathering. It is important to
recognize that the Vatican Council Documents proclaim Christ's presence in
'4' different ways when we participate in our Sunday celebration. First)
Christ is truly present in the word proclaimed. Second) Christ in truly
present in the bead and wine. Third) Christ is truly present in his
minister the Priest and Fourth) Christ is truly present in the gathered
assembly - the people. All of these elements must be there in order for us
to partake in a 'true' Eucharistic Celebration. Our coming together in this
way is our means of bringing Christ to the world, for those of us who
partake of this sacred mystery are 'the body of Christ'. This makes 'you'
are part of the body. 'You' bring Christ to the world. Christ is present
in 'You' - - and all of us gather around. Think of our special celebrations
with incense at Mass. The altar server incenses the 4 presences and bows
toward them and us when he incenses the assembly. We are created in the
image and likeness of God. God is all around us, though us, with us and in
us. Our sacraments in a special way help us to recognize this reality that
'already is' in a deeper way.

Now also take a closer look at the Catechism document you quoted me - -

"This presence is called 'real' - by which is not intended to exclude the
other types of presence as if they could not be 'real' too, but because it
is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial
presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely
present."

- - -"This real presence is not intended to exclude the other types of
presence as if they could not be 'real too." - - -

This clearly says the other presences are 'real' too. It just says that the
Eucharist is a substantial presence by which Christ, makes himself wholly
and entirely present. - - - Which is very special indeed.

It is a great cause for celebration because our understanding of God in
Eucharist hopefully opens us into the delightful understanding of the
presence of God in 'all' of creation. Yes - even the trees - - and the sun
and the moon!!!! (Think St. Francis) [/quote]

This woman is a great woman and I believe she's very sincere, but I can't help but feel her understanding of the eucharist is a bit...off. I feel like she thinks we adore Christ IN the eucharist (which leads us to other things...like trees?) but I think we adore Christ that IS the eucharist. If there are errors in her email, could someone point them out and tell me how I might defend them? I have some pretty good ideas already, it's just that I'll be replying to this email soon and could use some advice. Phatmassers always come through.

Thank you and God Bless,

Tony

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Sounds like she's not too far off on her theology until she seems to imply that the CCC is saying that the real presence in the Eucharist is equal to the "real" presence in everything else. When she says that Christ is substantially present in the Eucharist, she seems not to realize that that means His substance is present..."substantially" doesn't mean "in a big way," as we make it mean in modern English, it means "present in substance" as in "actually there, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, in person, God, right in front of you in the monstrance."

Is Jesus really present everywhere else? Yep. But not in the sense that is meant by the phrase "real presence."

[thessalonian]

Yes, the real in the eucharist is "body, blood, soul, and divinity". She says that jesus "Jesus becomes present in the Bread and
Wine shared because of our Liturgy.". This is not correct and is actually the lutheran view, consubstantiation. He is not present in the bread and the wine for the bread and the wine no longer exists. A tree is a tree that we can see the hand of God in. But it is not God. The Eucharist IS GOD! Sacramentally present. Big difference.

The tree does not take away sin. The Eucharist does.

Edited March 20, 2007 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

This website should also be a help in your discussions.

[url="http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/pea/a2.html"]http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/pea/a2.html[/url]

[bonoducchi]

Eucharist is primarily a verb, not a a noun. It's better to use the term "Blessed Sacrament." Eucharist comes from the Greek for thanksgiving and was understood by early Christians as an action, not a noun. If you've read BXVI's recent document, you see the massive complexity of the Eucharist - that is by no means simply consecrated bread reserved in a metal box. JPII gives us the following in Mane nobiscum Domine.

"15. There is no doubt that the most evident dimension of the Eucharist is that it is a meal. The Eucharist was born, on the evening of Holy Thursday, in the setting of the Passover meal. Being a meal is part of its very structure. “Take, eat... Then he took a cup and... gave it to them, saying: Drink from it, all of you” (Mt 26:26, 27). As such, it expresses the fellowship which God wishes to establish with us and which we ourselves must build with one another.

Yet it must not be forgotten that the Eucharistic meal also has a profoundly and primarily sacrificial meaning.(13) In the Eucharist, Christ makes present to us anew the sacrifice offered once for all on Golgotha. Present in the Eucharist as the Risen Lord, he nonetheless bears the marks of his passion, of which every Mass is a “memorial”, as the Liturgy reminds us in the acclamation following the consecration: “We announce your death, Lord, we proclaim your resurrection...”. At the same time, while the Eucharist makes present what occurred in the past, it also impels us towards the future, when Christ will come again at the end of history. This “eschatological” aspect makes the Sacrament of the Eucharist an event which draws us into itself and fills our Christian journey with hope. "

The term Eucharistic Adoration always bothers me because it seems to conotate a detachment of the private adoration from communal liturgy. It is a slippery slope to base a life of piety around private adoration because it is easy to tune out Christ's presence in our brethren and focus on the "me and Jesus" dimension of EA. This is not to demean a personalized relationship with the Son, but we must always remember that we pray in communion (isn't that an aspect of the Communion procession at Mass?) with all the people of God.

EA also concerns me because the practice of reserving consecrated bread for later use evolved into adoration that wasn't particularly related to early Christian understanding of Eucharist. The practice developed in monasteries in the 13 century at the behest of the faithful, who at that time, weren't receiving Holy Communion with great regularity. It becomes substitute of sorts for reception of communion.

None of this is to say I think EA is without merit. It does, however, seem to warrant great care when preparing it so that adoration's proper relationship to the Mass can be clearly developed in the minds of the faithful.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1216710' date='Mar 20 2007, 10:38 PM']Eucharist is primarily a verb, not a a noun. It's better to use the term "Blessed Sacrament." Eucharist comes from the Greek for thanksgiving and was understood by early Christians as an action, not a noun. If you've read BXVI's recent document, you see the massive complexity of the Eucharist - that is by no means simply consecrated bread reserved in a metal box. JPII gives us the following in Mane nobiscum Domine.

"15. There is no doubt that the most evident dimension of the Eucharist is that it is a meal. The Eucharist was born, on the evening of Holy Thursday, in the setting of the Passover meal. Being a meal is part of its very structure. “Take, eat... Then he took a cup and... gave it to them, saying: Drink from it, all of you” (Mt 26:26, 27). As such, it expresses the fellowship which God wishes to establish with us and which we ourselves must build with one another.

Yet it must not be forgotten that the Eucharistic meal also has a profoundly and primarily sacrificial meaning.(13) In the Eucharist, Christ makes present to us anew the sacrifice offered once for all on Golgotha. Present in the Eucharist as the Risen Lord, he nonetheless bears the marks of his passion, of which every Mass is a “memorial”, as the Liturgy reminds us in the acclamation following the consecration: “We announce your death, Lord, we proclaim your resurrection...”. At the same time, while the Eucharist makes present what occurred in the past, it also impels us towards the future, when Christ will come again at the end of history. This “eschatological” aspect makes the Sacrament of the Eucharist an event which draws us into itself and fills our Christian journey with hope. "

The term Eucharistic Adoration always bothers me because it seems to conotate a detachment of the private adoration from communal liturgy. It is a slippery slope to base a life of piety around private adoration because it is easy to tune out Christ's presence in our brethren and focus on the "me and Jesus" dimension of EA. This is not to demean a personalized relationship with the Son, but we must always remember that we pray in communion (isn't that an aspect of the Communion procession at Mass?) with all the people of God.

EA also concerns me because the practice of reserving consecrated bread for later use evolved into adoration that wasn't particularly related to early Christian understanding of Eucharist. The practice developed in monasteries in the 13 century at the behest of the faithful, who at that time, weren't receiving Holy Communion with great regularity. It becomes substitute of sorts for reception of communion.

None of this is to say I think EA is without merit. It does, however, seem to warrant great care when preparing it so that adoration's proper relationship to the Mass can be clearly developed in the minds of the faithful.[/quote]

I think your concerns are valid, but frankly, in the recent age of (mostly) rotten catechesis, I've never seen anybody take Eucharistic Adoration "too far." If the Catholic culture were more solidly tuned in to the spirituality of the Blessed Sacrament, there would be more of a danger of the overly-individualistic piety that you mention. But unfortunately, that's not the case. I think the Church is really trying to rectify this (ergo the Apostolic Exhortation, all the other calls for Adoration, etc.) At this point in the history of the Church we need more emphasis on this private devotion, not less.

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1216711' date='Mar 20 2007, 09:46 PM']I think your concerns are valid, but frankly, in the recent age of (mostly) rotten catechesis, I've never seen anybody take Eucharistic Adoration "too far." If the Catholic culture were more solidly tuned in to the spirituality of the Blessed Sacrament, there would be more of a danger of the overly-individualistic piety that you mention. But unfortunately, that's not the case. I think the Church is really trying to rectify this (ergo the Apostolic Exhortation, all the other calls for Adoration, etc.) At this point in the history of the Church we need more emphasis on this private devotion, not less.[/quote]

I would disagree. With Evangelical Protestantism serving up healthy doses of "me and Jesus" spirituality, in a age where Time's Person of the Year is "you," Catholic's need to be emphasizing authentic and healthy communal prayer. By further driving us inwards, we reinforce the self-centered perspective the world emphasizes daily and further alienate ourselves from the presence of Christ in our sisters and brothers.

I have seen people sit in adoration for two hours in my parish's chapel and then grouchily complain when I have no weekend bulletins left to offer them. I have seen people sit in adoration and then proceed to leave dozens of copies of novenas to St. Jude in the pew Bibles. I have seen adorers coldly maintain their place in a nearly empty pew when faced with a visiting family of four at Mass. Of course these are not statistically representative of those who are devoted Eucharistic adorers, but it does reinforce my hesitation about universally emphasizing EA as a healthy form of devotional practice without carefully crafted catechesis as a preface.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1216717' date='Mar 20 2007, 11:07 PM']I would disagree. With Evangelical Protestantism serving up healthy doses of "me and Jesus" spirituality, in a age where Time's Person of the Year is "you," Catholic's need to be emphasizing authentic and healthy communal prayer. By further driving us inwards, we reinforce the self-centered perspective the world emphasizes daily and further alienate ourselves from the presence of Christ in our sisters and brothers.

I have seen people sit in adoration for two hours in my parish's chapel and then grouchily complain when I have no weekend bulletins left to offer them. I have seen people sit in adoration and then proceed to leave dozens of copies of novenas to St. Jude in the pew Bibles. I have seen adorers coldly maintain their place in a nearly empty pew when faced with a visiting family of four at Mass. Of course these are not statistically representative of those who are devoted Eucharistic adorers, but it does reinforce my hesitation about universally emphasizing EA as a healthy form of devotional practice without carefully crafted catechesis as a preface.[/quote]

I agree with you about the ego-driven nature of our culture; the existence of something like YouTube makes that plain. And you're also right about how that kind of attitude can infect our prayer life (although I think you'd be surprised how "communal" evangelical churches can be, even at the expense of a personal relationship with Jesus!). But my point was not that we need more private prayer but that we need more Eucharistic prayer. You will not get any argument from me about the communal prayer of the Mass being the Church's most important But I think the ability of the People of God to participate with their whole hearts in the Sacrifice has a high correlation to the amount of time they spend in personal, individual prayer. Eucharistic Adoration ties quite directly into the Mass and that's why I think we need more, more, and more of it!

I do not know if I would necessarily characterize the behavior you observed at Adoration as "cold" or similar. I have to admit that I myself would probably not get up to greet the "visiting family of four," simply because I am an extremely shy person. I know that does not make me seem very friendly Not only have I sometimes left Adoration in a very grumpy mood, I have also on occasion left Mass in a very grumpy mood! It is easy to do so when one's time with God has been full of distractions or one's prayer life has become extremely dry... Not that this justifies the grumpiness or the complaining. But I do not think it is necessarily a measure of the efficacy of Adoration.

You are absolutely correct about the need for solid catechizing when beginning an Adoration program. Always, always more catechesis is needed in the Church!

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1216725' date='Mar 20 2007, 10:25 PM']I agree with you about the ego-driven nature of our culture; the existence of something like YouTube makes that plain. And you're also right about how that kind of attitude can infect our prayer life (although I think you'd be surprised how "communal" evangelical churches can be, even at the expense of a personal relationship with Jesus!). But my point was not that we need more private prayer but that we need more Eucharistic prayer. You will not get any argument from me about the communal prayer of the Mass being the Church's most important But I think the ability of the People of God to participate with their whole hearts in the Sacrifice has a high correlation to the amount of time they spend in personal, individual prayer. Eucharistic Adoration ties quite directly into the Mass and that's why I think we need more, more, and more of it!

I do not know if I would necessarily characterize the behavior you observed at Adoration as "cold" or similar. I have to admit that I myself would probably not get up to greet the "visiting family of four," simply because I am an extremely shy person. I know that does not make me seem very friendly Not only have I sometimes left Adoration in a very grumpy mood, I have also on occasion left Mass in a very grumpy mood! It is easy to do so when one's time with God has been full of distractions or one's prayer life has become extremely dry... Not that this justifies the grumpiness or the complaining. But I do not think it is necessarily a measure of the efficacy of Adoration.

You are absolutely correct about the need for solid catechizing when beginning an Adoration program. Always, always more catechesis is needed in the Church! [/quote]

Your points are well taken. However, I still worry that unless the rituals are followed and they properly connect adoration to Christian living, adoration needs to be viewed with caution. Its a medieval practice, not germane to the earliest understandings of Christian Eucharist. If I were pope, I would encourage Liturgy of the Hours as a "devotional" practice, but of course it is a Liturgy of the Church, not an extra-liturgical service. It also helps increase our literacy as a biblical people. But then again, I also need to justify the money my choir spent on the leather-bound edition of LOH as my Christmas gift!

[Maggyie]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1216747' date='Mar 20 2007, 11:48 PM']Your points are well taken. However, I still worry that unless the rituals are followed and they properly connect adoration to Christian living, adoration needs to be viewed with caution. Its a medieval practice, not germane to the earliest understandings of Christian Eucharist. If I were pope, I would encourage Liturgy of the Hours as a "devotional" practice, but of course it is a Liturgy of the Church, not an extra-liturgical service. It also helps increase our literacy as a biblical people. But then again, I also need to justify the money my choir spent on the leather-bound edition of LOH as my Christmas gift![/quote]

I think it is precisely because we are no longer in the medieval period that Adoration is not a particularly "risky" devotional practice. The Middle Ages did indeed see a hyper-emphasis on private practices like Adoration and much less frequent reception of Holy Communion. But neither of these conditions holds true today - just about everybody goes to Communion at every Mass, for instance, at least at every Mass I've ever assisted at.

It is also true that Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament was not an integral part of the early Church; it's also not prevalent in the Eastern churches. But I don't think that in any way undermines its value, since the Church's understanding develops over time and the Latin church has its own valid traditions.

I think the LOH is a wonderful practice! I do not think it is an either/or question; again I think that what we need is more [b]prayer[/b] period. LOH certainly needs more encouragement, as well; after all, the Second Vatican Council directly calls for a greater familiarity with this prayer of the Church. The parishes could definitely do more in this area, especially in terms of educating people in *how* exactly it is to be done - I know I myself find it pretty confusing.

Leather-bound edition = NICE!

[Piamaria]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1216747' date='Mar 20 2007, 08:48 PM']Your points are well taken. However, I still worry that unless the rituals are followed and they properly connect adoration to Christian living, adoration needs to be viewed with caution. Its a medieval practice, not germane to the earliest understandings of Christian Eucharist. If I were pope, I would encourage Liturgy of the Hours as a "devotional" practice, but of course it is a Liturgy of the Church, not an extra-liturgical service. It also helps increase our literacy as a biblical people. But then again, I also need to justify the money my choir spent on the leather-bound edition of LOH as my Christmas gift![/quote]

How do you name the Numinous? ADoration is not a "me and Jesus" thing. For me, adoration of and prayer in the Presence of the Blessed Sacrament happens in communion with the whole Church as does my praying of the LOH. SOmetimes, we need to get away from words to be present to the Word.

Your non-intellectual friend,
Piamaria

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='Pia' post='1216764' date='Mar 20 2007, 11:28 PM']How do you name the Numinous? Adoration is not a "me and Jesus" thing. For me, adoration of and prayer in the Presence of the Blessed Sacrament happens in communion with the whole Church as does my praying of the LOH. Sometimes, we need to get away from words to be present to the Word.

Your non-intellectual friend,
Piamaria[/quote]

I'm glad you have adoration framed in its proper context. Alas, many do not. And I also know that many of those who I see in adoration are not moved to be present in the temporal work of the Church's ministry. This is not a universal characterization, only personal observation (I spend about 11 hours a day in the church building). It is this disconnect between prayer and living that concerns me. Prayer is a glorious thing, but if it does not move us to a life of Christian service, what good is it? "Moved by the Word, let us move..."

[Maggyie]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1216766' date='Mar 21 2007, 12:36 AM']I'm glad you have adoration framed in its proper context. Alas, many do not. And I also know that many of those who I see in adoration are not moved to be present in the temporal work of the Church's ministry. This is not a universal characterization, only personal observation (I spend about 11 hours a day in the church building). It is this disconnect between prayer and living that concerns me. Prayer is a glorious thing, but if it does not move us to a life of Christian service, what good is it? "Moved by the Word, let us move..."[/quote]

It's true that the disconnect between prayer and living is problematic. But recollect the story of Mary and Martha: Martha busied herself with the "temporal work" while Mary sat at Jesus' feet. Both are necessary parts and they complement each other, but Jesus said that Mary had the better part.

I wouldn't be too quick to assume that those you see at Adoration are not involved in Christian service. There is a reason that St. Therese is patroness of the missions, cloistered contemplative that she was.

[thessalonian]

VaticanII,

Your posts are anecdotal and that's about all. Change happens in peoples hearts over time. I go to one parish that has had adoration for years. Certainly there are SOME who are as you speack. But many that I know who have participated in adoration are good friends, very active in the Church, and very welcoming. I go to another parish that I would say was very unwelcoming, liberal, lacked knowledge about the Church, negative to Church authority. They have had adoration for about 5 years now and over time I have seen SIGNIFICANT changes in the parish. Definite improvements in all areas. I believe that adoration is VERY helpful for parishes. It is not as if people are only spending all their time in adoration. Most only one hour a week. But it has great fruits from what I have seen. People don't change overnight.

I would also say that I find it HIGHLY unlikely that those involved in adoration have not increased their Christian service. Not my experience at all with the people I know.

Edited March 21, 2007 by thessalonian

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1216834' date='Mar 21 2007, 09:42 AM']VaticanII,

Your posts are anecdotal and that's about all. Change happens in peoples hearts over time. I go to one parish that has had adoration for years. Certainly there are SOME who are as you speack. But many that I know who have participated in adoration are good friends, very active in the Church, and very welcoming. I go to another parish that I would say was very unwelcoming, liberal, lacked knowledge about the Church, negative to Church authority. They have had adoration for about 5 years now and over time I have seen SIGNIFICANT changes in the parish. Definite improvements in all areas. I believe that adoration is VERY helpful for parishes. It is not as if people are only spending all their time in adoration. Most only one hour a week. But it has great fruits from what I have seen. People don't change overnight.

I would also say that I find it HIGHLY unlikely that those involved in adoration have not increased their Christian service. Not my experience at all with the people I know.[/quote]

You must have missed the following:

"I'm glad you have adoration framed in its proper context. Alas, many do not. And I also know that many of those who I see in adoration are not moved to be present in the temporal work of the Church's ministry. [b]This is not a universal characterization, only personal observation (I spend about 11 hours a day in the church building). It is this disconnect between prayer and living that concerns me.[/b] Prayer is a glorious thing, but if it does not move us to a life of Christian service, what good is it? 'Moved by the Word, let us move...'"

I never divorced the two aspects: prayer and service. The two are so interwoven that they can't be separated. Nor did I say that all who participate in adoration are derelict in service. The issue I thought I made clear is the tendency as of late to emphasize an uncatechized approach to adoration. At least in my mind, its a more subtle distinction than saying "Adoration is bad." Ooops, I shouldn't say that - someone may quote just those three words and call me a heretic.