Question On The Eucharist...

[Maggyie]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1217069' date='Mar 21 2007, 11:18 PM']You must have missed the following:

"I'm glad you have adoration framed in its proper context. Alas, many do not. And I also know that many of those who I see in adoration are not moved to be present in the temporal work of the Church's ministry. [b]This is not a universal characterization, only personal observation (I spend about 11 hours a day in the church building). It is this disconnect between prayer and living that concerns me.[/b] Prayer is a glorious thing, but if it does not move us to a life of Christian service, what good is it? 'Moved by the Word, let us move...'"

I never divorced the two aspects: prayer and service. The two are so interwoven that they can't be separated. Nor did I say that all who participate in adoration are derelict in service. The issue I thought I made clear is the tendency as of late to emphasize an uncatechized approach to adoration. At least in my mind, its a more subtle distinction than saying "Adoration is bad." Ooops, I shouldn't say that - someone may quote just those three words and call me a heretic. [/quote]

I don't think anybody would ever call you a heretic since there's no evidence at all to support such a charge I think the reason some might react negatively to the concerns you express about Adoration is that they recall the attitudes of the 60s and 70s in which private devotions like Adoration were almost entirely jettisoned. Not that you yourself are suggesting that. But it's an old, old line, and young people especially are easily exasperated by it.

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1217083' date='Mar 21 2007, 10:38 PM']I don't think anybody would ever call you a heretic since there's no evidence at all to support such a charge I think the reason some might react negatively to the concerns you express about Adoration is that they recall the attitudes of the 60s and 70s in which private devotions like Adoration were almost entirely jettisoned. Not that you yourself are suggesting that. But it's an old, old line, and young people especially are easily exasperated by it.[/quote]

The 75-100 years prior to VII were marked by individualistic piety and lacked to varying degrees (locale and parish dependent) an active, challenging life of service. The 75-100 years following VII seem to be marked by a renewed focus on the corporate body of Christ in the world with a deficiency in personal prayer and "traditional" devotional practice. No doubt any of about that. The goal, I think, is finding a way to authentically integrate both practices so that they lead to a life of holiness and service, for we cannot believe without serving and we cannot serve without believing.

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1216834' date='Mar 21 2007, 09:42 AM']VaticanII,

Your posts are anecdotal and that's about all. Change happens in peoples hearts over time. I go to one parish that has had adoration for years. Certainly there are SOME who are as you speack. But many that I know who have participated in adoration are good friends, very active in the Church, and very welcoming. I go to another parish that I would say was very unwelcoming, liberal, lacked knowledge about the Church, negative to Church authority. They have had adoration for about 5 years now and over time I have seen SIGNIFICANT changes in the parish. Definite improvements in all areas. I believe that adoration is VERY helpful for parishes. It is not as if people are only spending all their time in adoration. Most only one hour a week. But it has great fruits from what I have seen. People don't change overnight.

I would also say that I find it HIGHLY unlikely that those involved in adoration have not increased their Christian service. Not my experience at all with the people I know.[/quote]

Your post is anecdotal, too!

[thessalonian]

So the Church is wrong about eucharistic adoration and it does not have positive effects on parishes and should not be done is what you are telling us. I go with the Churches wisdom over you.

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1217226' date='Mar 22 2007, 08:08 AM']So the Church is wrong about eucharistic adoration and it does not have positive effects on parishes and should not be done is what you are telling us. I go with the Churches wisdom over you.[/quote]

Do you read the posts or do you just skim them? I never said adoration has no positive effects and should not be practiced. I said I am concerned about UNCATECHIZED adoration, just like I'm concerned about UNCATECHIZED participation in liturgy or Marian devotion. If we don't form people in the deeper aspects faith, how can we expect them to increase in holiness? Plopping them in front of the Blessed Sacrament won't help, however. Instructing them on how to fruitfully pray to the Father through the Son fully present before them seems like it would reap a greater harvest.

In the future, please disagree with what I said, not with what you [i]thought [/i]I said.

[thessalonian]

Ummmmm. You said my post was anecdotal. I.e. the effects on the two parishes was questionable. If you don't doudt the effects then you should not have said it was anecdotal. Pretty clear. Whether or not someone is poorly catechized does not mean the effects cannot be postitve. Plopping them in front of the Blessed Sacrament where there is a library of books does in fact help. Prayer helps whether someone is well catechized or not. I disagree with what you are saying. I am all for good catechesis but that does not mean we should not start adoration until the Catechesis is laid down.

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1217298' date='Mar 22 2007, 10:56 AM']Ummmmm. You said my post was anecdotal. I.e. the effects on the two parishes was questionable. If you don't doudt the effects then you should not have said it was anecdotal. Pretty clear. Whether or not someone is poorly catechized does not mean the effects cannot be postitve. Plopping them in front of the Blessed Sacrament where there is a library of books does in fact help. Prayer helps whether someone is well catechized or not. I disagree with what you are saying. I am all for good catechesis but that does not mean we should not start adoration until the Catechesis is laid down.[/quote]

I doubt the effects in all people who aren't sure of the theology of EA. Like many people on this forum, you seem to present an "all or nothing"approach to this. Either its good or it isn't. Not so simple in real parishes.

Another example - why are teens drifting away from Mass in droves? Because they don't' understand it. Forcing them to go and sit through it doesn't seem to help. When they understand the Mass's construction and relationship to their lives, they actually unite themselves to the liturgy and pray through it. At least that's what I see in parish ministry.

I think we should just agree to disagree. We have different ideas and truth lies somewhere in the middle.

[thessalonian]

Looking for where I said I was against catechesis.

Apparently you know all about real parishes. Guess the ones I go to aren't real or something.

I don't believe in making the uncatechized go to adoration. I do believe in making my teenagers go to Mass.

Edited March 22, 2007 by thessalonian

[Budge]

[quote]She says the eucharist is great, but some people can;t see Jesus in it and are more comfortable seeing Jesus in things like nature.[/quote]

I know for a fact there are Catholics who do not believe in Transubstatiation, who dont see Jesus in the bread wafer either.

I asked Catholic friends as I was leaving my last Catholic Church, what their viewpoint was, three said they do NOT believe the wafer was actually the body and blood of Jesus Christ.

Im curious do you all believe that someone who believes that way is really Catholic?

[rkwright]

[quote name='Budge' post='1217632' date='Mar 23 2007, 09:44 AM']I know for a fact there are Catholics who do not believe in Transubstatiation, who dont see Jesus in the bread wafer either.

I asked Catholic friends as I was leaving my last Catholic Church, what their viewpoint was, three said they do NOT believe the wafer was actually the body and blood of Jesus Christ.

Im curious do you all believe that someone who believes that way is really Catholic?[/quote]

No, this is a dogma of the Church. To be Catholic one must agree with the dogma's of the Church.

I dare say there are many 'Catholics' in name only...

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1217438' date='Mar 22 2007, 06:06 PM']Looking for where I said I was against catechesis.

Apparently you know all about real parishes. Guess the ones I go to aren't real or something.

I don't believe in making the uncatechized go to adoration. I do believe in making my teenagers go to Mass.[/quote]

Looking for where I said I was against adoration. idontknow.gif

We keep missing each other's intent. This is a discussion that involves subtlety and gray area. We can't bludgeon an answer out of this.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1217802' date='Mar 23 2007, 05:31 PM']Looking for where I said I was against adoration. idontknow.gif

We keep missing each other's intent. This is a discussion that involves subtlety and gray area. We can't bludgeon an answer out of this.[/quote]

This is true.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Budge' post='1217632' date='Mar 23 2007, 09:44 AM']I know for a fact there are Catholics who do not believe in Transubstatiation, who dont see Jesus in the bread wafer either.

I asked Catholic friends as I was leaving my last Catholic Church, what their viewpoint was, three said they do NOT believe the wafer was actually the body and blood of Jesus Christ.

Im curious do you all believe that someone who believes that way is really Catholic?[/quote]


That someone rejects a teaching is no proof of anything. Whether they do or not an whether they are Catholics or not or we think they are doesn't mean much with regard to this discussion. Once again budge this is not a debate board. You might want to go back to one.