Celibate Nuns?

[thessalonian]

You here so many people complaining about celibacy in the priesthood. That it needs to be done away with. I find it very strange that noone ever mentions celibate nuns. I went to here a liberal nun speak last night. I really think that nuns don't complain about celibacy in their ranks because of their desire for women in the preisthood.

[prose]

I think it may also have to do with the fact that priests are visible leaders.

People seem to have the misconception that someone needs to be like veryone else in order to "understand" and "lead" them.

[thessalonian]

I am sure there is some of that. Perahaps that is the majority of why it is not discussed. But I went and heard a dissenting nun speak last night. There were many others in the audience and they are simply not interrested in the topic. They are however VERY interested in the topic of women priests. That tells me there is more going on here with the issue of celibate nuns.

[prose]

Did she want to be an un-celibate nun?

[Piamaria]

I think most Catholics understand that the religous life--the profession of the evangelical counsels--for both men and women, has a role within the life of the Church that is different from that of the Priesthood. Celibacy is understood to be intrinsic to the life of a religious. Historically this has not been the practice within the Catholic church for secular priests; it is a later development. That the teaching of the Magisterium doesn't suffice for these folks is a whole other issue...I don't get that.

Edited March 21, 2007 by Pia

[thessalonian]

[quote name='prose' post='1216876' date='Mar 21 2007, 12:42 PM']Did she want to be an un-celibate nun?[/quote]


I did not get that from her talk at all, though there were many nuns in there and I hate to say it but I think alot of them were les..... I hate to speculate but the crowd was very pro-gay.

[NewReformation]

Probably because nobody ever thinks about the nuns. *shrugs*

Either way, I'm against this concept of mandated celibacy.

[Dave]

But those who become priests, nuns, and monks [b]voluntarily choose[/b] to remain celibate. It's not some rule put in place to make people miserable. Remember that St. Paul was celibate and even extolled celibacy (sorry, I don't have my Bible in front of me right now, so I'm not exactly able to cite epistle, chapter, and verse at this time).

[NewReformation]

[quote name='Dave' post='1216927' date='Mar 21 2007, 04:03 PM']But those who become priests, nuns, and monks [b]voluntarily choose[/b] to remain celibate. It's not some rule put in place to make people miserable. Remember that St. Paul was celibate and even extolled celibacy (sorry, I don't have my Bible in front of me right now, so I'm not exactly able to cite epistle, chapter, and verse at this time).[/quote]

I wouldn't quite say "voluntarily." If Celibacy is required of those persons, then it is not in fact voluntary. Voluntary would be if I chose it of my own free will and was in no wise a requirement to serve in that capacity.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='NewReformation' post='1216919' date='Mar 21 2007, 03:37 PM']Probably because nobody ever thinks about the nuns. *shrugs*

Either way, I'm against this concept of mandated celibacy.[/quote]

My question is where is the unmandated celibacy in the vast majority of protestantism. Jesus wasn't just talking about single people in Matt 19 . Neither was Paul in 1 Cor 7. Celibacy is discourage greatly in protestantism. Fact. Seems prots like to use the bible as a club against Catholcis without reflecting on how the Bible really plays out in their churches.

Edited March 21, 2007 by thessalonian

[Budge]

[quote]Either way, I'm against this concept of mandated celibacy.[/quote]

I agree with you there.

I go lurk on Vocation Station, most of them are idealistic, very nice young women, sometimes the idea of the cloistered ones bothers me a lot more, where they go lock themselves behind a grille {cage} even unable to visit their own families except on rare occasions and emergencies, everything seems so wrong with that.

This doesnt mean everyone has to marry, but I think a young girl locking herself away this way is wrong in every respect. Its almost like they are putting themselves in jail.

Wonder if any of them wake up when they are 35-40 years old and ask what have I done with my life? God wants Christians to show thier light in the world, not hide it under a bushel or behind a cage in a convent.

So it goes deeper then just the enforced celibacy. There is nothing about nuns in the BIble, in fact I believe while certainly community life has its appeal, people living together helping each other out, etc, the nun is more based on Rome's Vestal Virgins historically.

Before any one says I am down on nuns Im not. I was educated by them and I was friends with nuns as a child and young teen, even visiting the convent I lived very close to.

I think they are women who mean well and want to live life for God, but just misled in how to do that.

[Dave]

[quote name='Budge' post='1217007' date='Mar 21 2007, 07:04 PM']I agree with you there.

I go lurk on Vocation Station, most of them are idealistic, very nice young women, sometimes the idea of the cloistered ones bothers me a lot more, where they go lock themselves behind a grille {cage} even unable to visit their own families except on rare occasions and emergencies, everything seems so wrong with that.

This doesnt mean everyone has to marry, but I think a young girl locking herself away this way is wrong in every respect. Its almost like they are putting themselves in jail.

Wonder if any of them wake up when they are 35-40 years old and ask what have I done with my life? God wants Christians to show thier light in the world, not hide it under a bushel or behind a cage in a convent.

So it goes deeper then just the enforced celibacy. There is nothing about nuns in the BIble, in fact I believe while certainly community life has its appeal, people living together helping each other out, etc, the nun is more based on Rome's Vestal Virgins historically.

Before any one says I am down on nuns Im not. I was educated by them and I was friends with nuns as a child and young teen, even visiting the convent I lived very close to.

I think they are women who mean well and want to live life for God, but just misled in how to do that.[/quote]


Evidently, Budge, you've forgotten about Christ telling us that whoever loves father or mother more than Him isn't worthy to be His disciple. He tells us to come follow Him, no matter where it leads. And you're wrong about cloistered nuns putting their light under a bushel. They let it shine because they're devoted to prayer! Their whole lives are one big prayer for the whole world. And that's probably the best thing you can do for anyone!

Your comment about nuns being based on Rome's vestal virgins and unbiblical is also false. In the Old Testament there was an entire order of men and women, known as Nazirites ("consecrated ones"), who were were essentially monks and nuns. They took vows of self-denial (Num. 6:2-4, 6-8) and had a distinctive appearance (Num. 6:5). John the Baptist was one of these (Luke 1:15), as were Samson (Judges 13:5-6) and Samuel (1 Sam. 1:11). Others too led a consecrated lifestyle, such as the prophetess Anna, who lived like a cloistered nun (Luke 2:36-37).

In the Christian age Paul himself took a temporary Nazirite vow (Acts 18:18) and recommended that others live celibate lives, consecrated to God (1 Cor. 7:32-38), especially ministers (1 Tim. 2:3-4). He set up an order of widows living the consecrated life after the deaths of their husbands (1 Tim. 5:3-12), warning that those were not to be enrolled in this order if they were in danger of leaving the consecrated life to get married and so "incur condemnation for having violated their first pledge" (1 Tim. 5:12).

Based on this biblical material, the early Church perpetuated the consecrated life, and over the years it has taken a variety of forms. There arose orders of widows (à la 1 Tim. 5:12), orders of virgins of Christ (à la 1 Cor. 7:34), and orders of "deaconesses," women who assisted in certain church duties, though they weren't ordained. Later, these were merged into the modern concept of nuns; men living the consecrated life came to be known as monks.

[jeffpugh]

Very good stuff Dave. I personally have not had this problem with protestant friends about Women's celibate life. Just the priests. It all boils down to the leadership thing; how do they know what a married couple goes through? I think priests can have a good idea. We're all human after all.

[Budge]

So what happened here?

[quote]Being a nazirite

This vow required the man or woman to observe the following:

[b]*[b] Abstain from wine, wine vinegar, grapes, and raisins;[/b][/b][/quote]

How many monasteries have produced wine?

[img]http://www.maisons-champagne.com/orga_prof/images/image17.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.madeirawineguide.com/pics/Three%20monks%20california%20madeira.jpg[/img]

[img]http://static.flickr.com/92/253959711_fc4110931a.jpg[/img]
[quote]
*[b]Refrain from cutting one's hair and beard[/b];[/quote]

[img]http://polynate.net/photos/tonsure1.jpg[/img]


Right from olam website:

[quote]
A reading from Philippians follows this dialogue between the abbess and the nun. Then, after the holy habit is blessed by the priest,[b]the abbess proceeds to cut the nun's hair.[/b] This symbolizes her total renunciation of the vanities of the world.[/quote]

[quote]*[b]To avoid corpses and graves, even those of a family member[/b].[/quote]

[quote]The nazirite (except for a Samson-like nazirite as stated above) may not become ritually impure by a dead body. This includes not being under the same roof as a corpse.[/quote]

[img]http://www.seocc.org/elizabeth/relics.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/159/catherine.jpg[/img]

tombs under the altar at the Vatican.

[img]http://www.jonathanstephens.com/italy-large/St%20Peter%20Tomb%20Vatican%20Rome%20Italy.jpg[/img]

[thessalonian]

[quote name='NewReformation' post='1216932' date='Mar 21 2007, 04:22 PM']I wouldn't quite say "voluntarily." If Celibacy is required of those persons, then it is not in fact voluntary. Voluntary would be if I chose it of my own free will and was in no wise a requirement to serve in that capacity.[/quote]

You don't know what you are talking about here. They do in fact choose of their own free will. Noone puts a gun to their end. They discern whether they are to be celibate or married FIRST in their discernment process to be a priest. If they choose celibacy they THEN choose priesthood or single life.

Budge, quit cluttering my threads with tripe that has been answered over and over and over again. That second commandment thing is so much nonsense. Read the Catechism. IThose words are right with the first where they belong. You shall have no gods befoer me and worshipping an idol as God are the same sin budge because that idol would be a god before the one true God would it not. By the way who decided to number your commandments for you? That's a tradition of man dude.

Edited March 22, 2007 by thessalonian

[Megz]

You are referring to cloisterd nuns. There are plenty of orders of Sisters who work within the community in amazing capacity. i know a few of them, and some of them are habited. I don't think there are too many "behind bars" cloisters who do no work for the community. Even those who are cloistered usually provied an irreplacable benefit, such as a hospital, a school, or even food or Eucharistic bread. Some cook sweets. They are prayerful and highly skilled.

[Dave]

[quote name='Budge' post='1217202' date='Mar 22 2007, 07:47 AM']So what happened here?
How many monasteries have produced wine?

[img]http://www.maisons-champagne.com/orga_prof/images/image17.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.madeirawineguide.com/pics/Three%20monks%20california%20madeira.jpg[/img]

[img]http://static.flickr.com/92/253959711_fc4110931a.jpg[/img]
[img]http://polynate.net/photos/tonsure1.jpg[/img]
Right from olam website:

[img]http://www.seocc.org/elizabeth/relics.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/159/catherine.jpg[/img]

tombs under the altar at the Vatican.

[img]http://www.jonathanstephens.com/italy-large/St%20Peter%20Tomb%20Vatican%20Rome%20Italy.jpg[/img][/quote]

Customs can change. Besides, it's not a sin to drink wine, eat grapes, cut one's hair, or come in contact with dead people. Besides, that last one had to do with ritual cleanliness/uncleanliness ... Christ changed all that when he said it's what comes out of us, not what goes into us, that defiles.

[prose]

[img]http://static.flickr.com/92/253959711_fc4110931a.jpg[/img]



Now THAT is an authoritative picture if ever I have seen one!!

Edited March 22, 2007 by prose

[Starets]

If you think joining a cloistered order is a sign of running away from the world or hiding your light under a bushel, then I really wonder how much of monastic life you realy understood in your catholic years.

1. if you join in order to flee the world, you will soon have to flee the order. Any monastic will tell you that the hardest thing about monastic life is the fact that you have to live with the same people 24x7. there's no such thing as calling in sick! normal interpersonal struggles get magnified enormously.

2. A cloistered life is not a fleeing from the world, it is a disengagement with the world in order to engage it more fully in a spiritual sense. If you are not familiar with the power of prayer, I'm not sure how i can help you.

3. when you are alone with God you are also alone with yourself. You need to have the emotional, mental, and spiritual maturity to handle that.

[Jnorm888]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1216860' date='Mar 21 2007, 09:54 AM']You here so many people complaining about celibacy in the priesthood. That it needs to be done away with. I find it very strange that noone ever mentions celibate nuns. I went to here a liberal nun speak last night. I really think that nuns don't complain about celibacy in their ranks because of their desire for women in the preisthood.[/quote]


no no no. It is because of the Bible!!! The Bible talks abouts the clergy being married to one wife.


If the Bible never said that then we wouldn't be having this argument. The Bible never talks about nuns.......nor should it.