Celibate Nuns?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Budge' post='1217202' date='Mar 22 2007, 06:47 AM']How many monasteries have produced wine?[/quote]

Christ made and drank wine, monasteries are just following the lead of Christ. Whats your problem?

While the painting of the drunk monk is comical, its rather meaningless to this debate, or any debate really.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='jnorm888' post='1217501' date='Mar 22 2007, 07:30 PM']no no no. It is because of the Bible!!! The Bible talks abouts the clergy being married to one wife.
If the Bible never said that then we wouldn't be having this argument. The Bible never talks about nuns.......nor should it.[/quote]

Yes Yes Yes! Because it is in the Bible!

[url="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_priesthood.html#priesthood-V"]Celibacy is Church Practice, Not Dogma[/url]
Matt. 19:11-12 - Jesus says celibacy is a gift from God and whoever can bear it should bear it. Jesus praises and recommends celibacy for full-time ministers in the Church. Because celibacy is a gift from God, those who criticize the Church's practice of celibacy are criticizing God and this wonderful gift He bestows on His chosen ones.

Matt. 19:29 - Jesus says that whoever gives up children for the sake of His name will receive a hundred times more and will inherit eternal life. Jesus praises celibacy when it is done for the sake of His kingdom.

Matt. 22:30 - Jesus explains that in heaven there are no marriages. To bring about Jesus' kingdom on earth, priests live the heavenly consecration to God by not taking a wife in marriage. This way, priests are able to focus exclusively on the spiritual family, and not have any additional pressures of the biological family (which is for the vocation of marriage). This also makes it easier for priests to be transferred to different parishes where they are most needed without having to worry about the impact of their transfer on wife and children.

1 Cor 7:1 – Paul teaches that it is well for a man not to touch a woman. This is the choice that the Catholic priests of the Roman rite freely make.

1 Cor. 7:7 - Paul also acknowledges that celibacy is a gift from God and wishes that all were celibate like he is.

1 Cor. 7:27 – Paul teaches men that they should not seek marriage. In Paul’s opinion, marriage introduces worldly temptations that can interfere with one’s relationship with God, specifically regarding those who will become full-time ministers in the Church.

1 Cor. 7:32-33, 38 - Paul recommends celibacy for full-time ministers in the Church so that they are able to focus entirely upon God and building up His kingdom. He “who refrains from marriage will do better.”

1 Tim. 3:2 - Paul instructs that bishops must be married only once. Many Protestants use this verse to prove that the Church's celibacy law is in error. But they are mistaken because this verse refers to bishops that were widowers. Paul is instructing that these widowers could not remarry. The verse also refers to those bishops who were currently married. They also could not remarry (in the Catholic Church's Eastern rite, priests are allowed to marry; celibacy is only a disciplinary rule for the clergy of the Roman rite). Therefore, this text has nothing to do with imposing a marriage requirement on becoming a bishop.

1 Tim. 4:3 - in this verse, Paul refers to deceitful doctrines that forbid marriage. Many non-Catholics also use this verse to impugn the Church's practice of celibacy. This is entirely misguided because the Catholic Church (unlike many Protestant churches) exalts marriage to a sacrament. In fact, marriage is elevated to a sacrament, but consecrated virginity is not. The Church declares marriage sacred, covenantal and lifegiving. Paul is referring to doctrines that forbid marriage and other goods when done outside the teaching of Christ and for a lessor good. Celibacy is an act of giving up one good (marriage and children) for a greater good (complete spiritual union with God).

1 Tim. 5:9-12 - Paul recommends that older widows take a pledge of celibacy. This was the beginning of women religious orders.

2 Tim. 2:3-4 - Paul instructs his bishop Timothy that no soldier on service gets entangled in civilian pursuits, since his aim his to satisfy the One who enlisted him. Paul is using an analogy to describe the role of the celibate priesthood in the Church.

Rev. 14:4 - unlike our sinful world of the flesh, in heaven, those consecrated to virginity are honored.

Isaiah 56:3-7 - the eunuchs who keep God's covenant will have a special place in the kingdom of heaven.

Jer. 16:1-4 - Jeremiah is told by God not to take a wife or have children.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='jnorm888' post='1217501' date='Mar 22 2007, 07:30 PM']The Bible never talks about nuns.......nor should it.[/quote]

Dave gave a good answer to this already...

[quote name='Dave' post='1217015' date='Mar 21 2007, 06:43 PM']In the Old Testament there was an entire order of men and women, known as Nazirites ("consecrated ones"), who were were essentially monks and nuns. They took vows of self-denial (Num. 6:2-4, 6-8) and had a distinctive appearance (Num. 6:5). John the Baptist was one of these (Luke 1:15), as were Samson (Judges 13:5-6) and Samuel (1 Sam. 1:11). Others too led a consecrated lifestyle, such as the prophetess Anna, who lived like a cloistered nun (Luke 2:36-37).

In the Christian age Paul himself took a temporary Nazirite vow (Acts 18:18) and recommended that others live celibate lives, consecrated to God (1 Cor. 7:32-38), especially ministers (1 Tim. 2:3-4). He set up an order of widows living the consecrated life after the deaths of their husbands (1 Tim. 5:3-12), warning that those were not to be enrolled in this order if they were in danger of leaving the consecrated life to get married and so "incur condemnation for having violated their first pledge" (1 Tim. 5:12).

Based on this biblical material, the early Church perpetuated the consecrated life, and over the years it has taken a variety of forms. There arose orders of widows (à la 1 Tim. 5:12), orders of virgins of Christ (à la 1 Cor. 7:34), and orders of "deaconesses," women who assisted in certain church duties, though they weren't ordained. Later, these were merged into the modern concept of nuns; men living the consecrated life came to be known as monks.[/quote]

[FullTruth]

I am totally against the celibacy of nuns. But I might be slightly biased because I am a guy.

On a serious note, I think denying men and women from marrying is wrong. As a Libertarian, I don't think any human organization should have any right to say what a person can or can't do. Also it is against scripture.

[quote name='1 Timothy 4:2-4' date=' KJV']Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

[b]Forbidding to marry[/b], and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:[/quote]

Deal with scripture.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1217511' date='Mar 22 2007, 08:11 PM']I am totally against the celibacy of nuns. But I might be slightly biased because I am a guy.

On a serious note, I think denying men and women from marrying is wrong. As a Libertarian, I don't think any human organization should have any right to say what a person can or can't do. Also it is against scripture.
Deal with scripture.[/quote]


The numerous passages from scripture, supporting celibacy, I posted can not just be overlooked because of one misunderstood passage you post.

"Forbidding to marry, to abstain from meats"... He [Saint Paul] speaks of the Gnostics, the Marcionites, the Eneratites, the Manicheans, and other ancient heretics, who [b]absolutely[/b] condemned marriage, and the use of all kind of meat; because they pretended that all flesh was from an evil principle. W[b]hereas the church of God, so far from condemning marriage, holds it a holy sacrament; and forbids it to none but such as by vow have chosen the better part[/b]: and prohibits not the use of any meats whatsoever in proper times and seasons; though she does not judge all kind of diet proper for days of fasting and penance."

[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/61004.htm"]Source[/url]


Mother Church does not "condemn" marriage, celibacy is a choice, and Jesus Christ praises celibacy when it is done for the sake of His kingdom.

Deal with the true meaning of Holy Scripture.

Edited March 23, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[Archaeology cat]

Just to add a little bit more Scripture. Forgive me if I'm repeating, but I don't think I saw these verses up yet.

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1217513' date='Mar 23 2007, 02:22 AM']Mother Church does not "condemn" marriage, celibacy is a choice, and Jesus Christ praises celibacy when it is done for the sake of His kingdom.[/quote]

10The disciples said to Him, "If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry."

11But He said to them, "(J)Not all men can accept this statement, but (K)only those to whom it has been given.

12"For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it." (Matthew 19:10-12, NASB)

Or you can check out the link here for the Jerusalem Bible, I couldn't copy it. [url="http://www.kofc.duq.edu/scripture/gmatthew.html"]Matthew[/url]

Edited March 23, 2007 by Archaeology cat

[Budge]

Forbidding to marry is directly written in scripture per the above, as a "doctrine of demons"

Catholics cannot claim that their religious are "not" forbidden to marry.

If they want to be nuns or priests that rule IS IMPOSED on them.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Budge' post='1217615' date='Mar 23 2007, 09:21 AM']Forbidding to marry is directly written in scripture per the above, as a "doctrine of demons"

Catholics cannot claim that their religious are "not" forbidden to marry.

If they want to be nuns or priests that rule IS IMPOSED on them.[/quote]
(point by point)

Read again Budge...you missed the point...again. Read KofCs post again, this time without yer anti-Catholic glasses on..

The sentence, besides being gramatically questionable, makes a false assertion.

Yep. Like ballplayers HAVE to wear the uniform of the team for which they play...like all HAVE to go thru a metal detector at the airport...like you HAVE to turn on the oven to bake the cake. All these are IMPOSED on people...but they can choose to not play sports, not go to the airport, or not bake a cake. Likewise, poeple are free to choose not to pursue consecrated life.


Yer a silly girl, Budgie!

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Budge' post='1217615' date='Mar 23 2007, 08:21 AM']Forbidding to marry is directly written in scripture per the above, as a "doctrine of demons"

Catholics cannot claim that their religious are "not" forbidden to marry.

If they want to be nuns or priests that rule IS IMPOSED on them.[/quote]

As usual your anti-catholic statements are falsehoods, have no base in reality, and you have [color="#FF0000"]no response[/color] to the numerous passages from Holy Scripture supporting celibacy. You do not understand scripture and you do not understand Mother Church. In the Latin Rite celibacy is a choice for religious. If one feels so called to be both a religious and married there's always the Eastern Rite. Again it comes down to a choice.

[Budge]

Honestly as Dr Phil would say...

How is imposed celibacy working for the Catholic Church?

{not very well, considering the problems with the Lavender Mafia}

Why do you folks care if your priest has a nice wife to go home to, to cook him hot meals and be a helpmate?

My last pastor was very happily married and his wife served the church in many capabilities.

I was glad to have a pastor that related to married life...{I am happily married}

Edited March 23, 2007 by Budge

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Budge' post='1217893' date='Mar 23 2007, 07:41 PM']Honestly as Dr Phil would say...

How is imposed celibacy working for the Catholic Church?

{not very well, considering the problems with the Lavender Mafia}

Why do you folks care if your priest has a nice wife to go home to, to cook him hot meals and be a helpmate?

My last pastor was very happily married and his wife served the church in many capabilities.

I was glad to have a pastor that related to married life...{I am happily married}[/quote]
Budge,
You get me agreeing with you for a while then...
I think celibacy has worked for the Catholic Church quite well until recently. Celibacy isn't the issue, it's the idea that Clergy are something special and can behave differently than they preach. Add that mistake to 'tolerance' becoming acceptance and you get the Lavendar Mafia. Why are you so scared of a person who dedicates their entire life to working for God and is happy not having time for a spouse and children? Scripture tells us specifically some people are given that opportunity as a gift from God. To deny that is anti-Scriptural, isn't it?

[Budge]

I dont care if someone forgoes marriage and children. Some people never marry even out in the secular world, many people dont have children or cant have them.

I have two close very late 30s friends who have never married and probably never will and a SIL who does not want to marry and has said so.

I think the celibacy thing sets them apart from normal people, even normal people who may NOT be married and living the no dating lifestyle. It works like this, they are set apart, seen as more holy and "above" others because of these celibacy rules and the specialness. It is a pride thing. "Look you ingrates while youre all down there having "fun", we are the holy ones, who are untouched and 'pure'."

The system by imposing celibacy doesnt attract people who have just chosen celibacy on their own for other reasons actually attracts those who are more sexually ambivalent or with socio-sexual issues, perhaps struggles with homosexuality as a normal matter of course. Joining a system where you are forced to give up a wife for good, means you are definitely looking at things in a different ligt

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Budge' post='1217893' date='Mar 23 2007, 05:41 PM']Honestly as Dr Phil would say...

How is imposed celibacy working for the Catholic Church?

{not very well, considering the problems with the Lavender Mafia}

Why do you folks care if your priest has a nice wife to go home to, to cook him hot meals and be a helpmate?

My last pastor was very happily married and his wife served the church in many capabilities.

I was glad to have a pastor that related to married life...{I am happily married}[/quote]


Why ask questions we both know you dont really want the answer to? When you find some anti-catholic article or picture that matches what you already falsely believe it that will be your "answer." Not the truth.

Edited March 23, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[thessalonian]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1217511' date='Mar 22 2007, 09:11 PM']I am totally against the celibacy of nuns. But I might be slightly biased because I am a guy.

On a serious note, I think denying men and women from marrying is wrong. As a Libertarian, I don't think any human organization should have any right to say what a person can or can't do. Also it is against scripture.
Deal with scripture.[/quote]


No, it's against your interpretation of scripture, not knowing context of the passage. Paul is speaking about a sect callen manechians who actually did forbid marriage, for all. Their people could nto get married. The Catholic Church allows men and women to discern for the celibate life. That is what Matt 19 and 1 Cor 7 are about. I ask again, where is consecrated celibacy in protestantism according to these two passages and others about eunuchs for the kingdom etc? I know of some lutheran and episcopalians that have a celibate lifestyle. These passages are not about those who can't get a date, but those like Samuel who were consecrated celibates. It's quite scriptural and protestants generally have no answer for it.

Edited March 23, 2007 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

[quote name='jnorm888' post='1217501' date='Mar 22 2007, 08:30 PM']no no no. It is because of the Bible!!! The Bible talks abouts the clergy being married to one wife.
If the Bible never said that then we wouldn't be having this argument. The Bible never talks about nuns.......nor should it.[/quote]


You take the passage about having one wife out of context. It is a very ackward way of saying one should be married if that is what it is intended for. Why not say a bishop must be married? Two very good reasons are seen in the writings of the Church Fathers. But first of all you should know that it is not doctrine that Catholic priests are not married and in times past they have been. There are even a few today who came in from Lutherans or Anglicans and were married and allowed to be priests. In fact about 500 priests came from the Anglicans in the 90's when they started allowing women priests. Most were married and became Catholic preists. Secondly the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church in communion with Rome have married clergy. Celibacy among priests is a practice, not a doctrine.

Now that you have an education about that, with regard to Paul's statement about Bishops having one wife, as I said it is very awkward if he is saying they have to be married. Even more awkward, considering that Paul himself was not married. See 1 Cor 7. I doudt he was placing a requirement upon Bishosps he could not meet (by the way, most protestant Churches don't have Bishops either, but then that problem doesn't occur to them when they are Catholic thumping this passage either). More likely, and there is evidence of this in the writings of the Church fathers, the passage was refering to one of two or both cases. Those who had been married and then divorced were not elligible for the priesthood, or those who were in polygamous relationships which were not uncommon. These make a whole lot more sense out of the text than your awkward interpretation of it.

The question by others about nuns has been answered by Dave quite adequately. You should read it.

Blessings

[RezaMikhaeil]

[b]I go lurk on Vocation Station, most of them are idealistic, very nice young women, sometimes the idea of the cloistered ones bothers me a lot more, where they go lock themselves behind a grille {cage} even unable to visit their own families except on rare occasions and emergencies, everything seems so wrong with that.[/b] For someone that doesn't understand it maybe, this is the same mindset that causes divorce. The Protestant Church has a higher divorce rate then even the secular world, because vows and covenants are not honored. Your statement is no different then men that leave their families with outrageously pathetic statements such as "I just felt trapped, in prison, cornered, so I couldn't stay with my wife and children".

[b]This doesnt mean everyone has to marry, but I think a young girl locking herself away this way is wrong in every respect. Its almost like they are putting themselves in jail. [/b] I'm guessing that you don't consider St. Euphrasia, and the many great Monastic women to be a Saints, despite their great acts of love towards Jesus Christ in the 3rd century, such as leaping to their martyrdom in order to proclaim the truth of Jesus Christ.

[b]Wonder if any of them wake up when they are 35-40 years old and ask what have I done with my life? God wants Christians to show thier light in the world, not hide it under a bushel or behind a cage in a convent.[/b] We need their prayers abundantly, their also not "locking themselves away" its quite different then your perceptions. However, I'd read alot of writings of modern nuns and it's quite the opposite, they're deeply burdened that more young ladies today, don't seek monasticism as it was their greatest moment in their lives.

[b]So it goes deeper then just the enforced celibacy. There is nothing about nuns in the BIble, in fact I believe while certainly community life has its appeal, people living together helping each other out, etc, the nun is more based on Rome's Vestal Virgins historically.[/b] No, actually St. Antony was the founder of Monasticism [Desert Fathers & Desert Mothers], who was Coptic [Egyptian], not Roman. Now the Carmelite form of Monasticism is Roman, that's true but the concept of Monasticism was founded by St. Antony but a non-formal version was practiced by none other then St. Paul himself. It's also not correct to say that celebacy was "enforced" because women/men have a choice not to become a Monastic, if its not their calling.

[b]Before any one says I am down on nuns Im not. I was educated by them and I was friends with nuns as a child and young teen, even visiting the convent I lived very close to.[/b] I'm going to call your bluff, you havn't ever met a monastic in your entire lifetime, if you had been "so close" to these nuns as you're suggesting, you'd know these facts that I'd presented to you, and you'd know more about it.

[b]I think they are women who mean well and want to live life for God, but just misled in how to do that.[/b] This is an uneducated statement, thou not uncommon among protestants of your sort.

Reza

[RezaMikhaeil]

Whats wrong Budge? No response? Cat gotcha tongue?

[Budge]

no board slow and not letting me post...

[quote]
For someone that doesn't understand it maybe, this is the same mindset that causes divorce. The Protestant Church has a higher divorce rate then even the secular world, because vows and covenants are not honored. Your statement is no different then men that leave their families with outrageously pathetic statements such as "I just felt trapped, in prison, cornered, so I couldn't stay with my wife and children".[/quote]Oh come on marriage isnt living behind prison walls.

I think that is quite a bit of a stretch.

The nun's marriage would be equivalent to a woman married to an abusive guy who locks her behind a cage....just doesnt compute.

[quote]
I'm guessing that you don't consider St. Euphrasia, and the many great Monastic women to be a Saints, despite their great acts of love towards Jesus Christ in the 3rd century, such as leaping to their martyrdom in order to proclaim the truth of Jesus Christ.[/quote]

By now you should realize I dont consider everyone the Catholic Church considers to be a saint to really be so. Monasticism is more related to paganism. I read a memroir by a Buddist nun, their system of monasticism has so much overlap with yours its not funny. Jesus never set up any convents.

[quote]
We need their prayers abundantly, their also not "locking themselves away" its quite different then your perceptions. However, I'd read alot of writings of modern nuns and it's quite the opposite, they're deeply burdened that more young ladies today, don't seek monasticism as it was their greatest moment in their lives.[/quote]How are they really going to pray for anyone except in the most vague and removed way. They cant even lay hands on people to pray..>Why because they are locked away...even from their own families. This is for control, I know when they enter becaue years ago I talked to this girl on Rapture Ready who was entering the convent, that they would have all their mail ceased and not even be allowed to write letters. Im sure that does wonders for their families. Theyll tell them oh its so you can pray and determine your vocation, no this is more about control and removing a young girl from her support systems.

Young ladies dont seek the convent now becuase most young healthy women can make it on their own, they do not have to join the convent to survive. The life is less appealing now. Why should a young healthy woman sign up to be a free worker for Rome living in a small "cell" {ironic name that, just like prison}?

[quote]
I'm going to call your bluff, you havn't ever met a monastic in your entire lifetime, if you had been "so close" to these nuns as you're suggesting, you'd know these facts that I'd presented to you, and you'd know more about it.[/quote]

I never met the cloistered types, how could I? but I knew nuns who worked at my school directly. I bet many of them left because none of them are left except one at that school anymore.

I want to cry for the women on Vocation station who are being so misled. Young, vibrant girls being fed a lie, told to lock away their light under a bushel, to "better" the world. Telling them they are "marrying" Jesus Christ 'brides of Christ" when that is totally wrong. the bride of Christ is the church.

Some will wake up and regret the husband and children they have missed out on. Some will realize like an old friend of my family, who was a nun for 23 years that she was just there to make money for the church while she lived the life of a pauper. She ended up wisely leaving and marrying.

Some will regret waking up and realizing theyve basically lived life in a prison "cell" esopecially the cloistered variety.

[Budge]

I wonder if they still outlaw nuns from making personal friends in their convents...

I know they made that a rule pre-Vatican 2....

So they live this life, high ubove the air seperated from family, seperated from friends, false piety and ritual, told they are "holier" then others",

When I see the women step behind that cage on the OLAM website pics I want cry for them.

Many of those young girls have been deceived thinking that is living for God, when they are locking themselves away from people who need them and who they could have made the world a better place for rather then going into some opulant monstery where every step is mandated by others.

I think some girls join the convent, really believing this is a way to serve God.

Some join because they are afraid of the world and see the convent as a refuge. I know someone whose father told them "join the convent, let them take care of you!", when they had a period of post-college unemployment!


I bet some of those girls who may not be as pretty or outgoing or are late blooming or shy about dating, had their families telling them, join the convent, you cant do worse! I think of the quiet girl who may have the cheerleader sister, who is unassuming, maybe doesnt stand out very much, almost doing this to make a name for herself, to get "noticed"

Some girls are caught up in the false "romance" of it all..the candles, getting to wear a different outfit, having the honor, love and respect of their families, forming an idendity this way.

Some simply do not desire marriage or children and at least in the old days saw this as their only viable option, perhaps that is tstill true in conservative Catholic families.

Some are attracted to communal living. {desiring community} and they have a case since we live in such a disconnected society nowadays, but even then can on have a true community when you cant even make personal friends, or your pals are there to watch your every move and turn you into the Superior or youre laying prostrate on the floor because you didnt clean the floors good enough for "punishment"__I know they did that pre-Vatican II.

[Maggyie]

[quote]I never met the cloistered types, how could I? but I knew nuns who worked at my school directly. I bet many of them left because none of them are left except one at that school anymore.

I want to cry for the women on Vocation station who are being so misled. Young, vibrant girls being fed a lie, told to lock away their light under a bushel, to "better" the world. Telling them they are "marrying" Jesus Christ 'brides of Christ" when that is totally wrong. the bride of Christ is the church.

Some will wake up and regret the husband and children they have missed out on. Some will realize like an old friend of my family, who was a nun for 23 years that she was just there to make money for the church while she lived the life of a pauper. She ended up wisely leaving and marrying.

Some will regret waking up and realizing theyve basically lived life in a prison "cell" esopecially the cloistered variety.[/quote]

Please see the Gospel of St. John's story of Martha and Mary to understand the life of cloistered contemplatives.

I am sorry you do not know any happy nuns. I know lots. They are in love with Jesus Christ and His Church, and they do not regret anything.

Incidentally, I [i]do[/i] know some married people who regret not joining the convent or the priesthood... Do you have any thoughts about their situation?