Banning Sin

[dairygirl4u2c]

ty
i think the last one doesn't work right. maybe i didn't check the multiple choice box. i made the poll like three times but phat mass is slowand i lost it so the forth time i musta forgot in my asperation.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

"non-procreative sex acts" is ambiguous...do you mean things that couldn't possibly make life or do you mean couples having legitimate but infertile sex or what?

[dairygirl4u2c]

as i said, use common sense. you know what i mean.
but, that said, it is ambiguous and could be construed for the ultraconservative out there to mean what you suggest, embracing it. or the liberal to avoid what you suggest.

[Socrates]

The choices are far too poorly thought out to be meaningful, as they include completely different categories of things.

"Natural law" simply means the law which can be known through natural reason alone (as opposed to revealed religion). That is an extremely broad catecgory.
The :Seven Deadly Sins" are categories of sin, or "root" sins, rather than specific sinful acts.
Other things listed are specific sins or acts.

[Guest T-Bone]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1220144' date='Mar 26 2007, 08:37 PM']as i said, use common sense. you know what i mean.
but, that said, it is ambiguous and could be construed for the ultraconservative out there to mean what you suggest, embracing it. or the liberal to avoid what you suggest.[/quote]

You contradict yourself.

Do you really want us to take you seriously?

[dairygirl4u2c]

how do i contradict myself?

how does having general and specific choices overlapping change anything? You haven't stated your point in bringing that up. As far as I can tell, since it's multiple choice, choose the ones you want, the fact it overlaps doesn't change anything as it would with either or. If you see natural law, and can think of something you don't want to ban, don't vote for it. Otherwise, vote for it. Vote for waht you think is natural law.

If you see condom use and wonder if it'd be practical to ban it, don't bother with those practicalities because this is only theory of what should be in an ideal world where those practicalites don't exist but the sin still needs banned. As I said, use common sense in reading it to get to my intent.

I wonder if you guys just don't want to admit you'd have to be for banning most of that stuff if you'r efor banning some of it. (condom use if gay acts or whatevr the case)

[Guest T-Bone]

use common sense, you know what I mean

vs.

it is ambiguous...

How is that not self contradictory?

[kujo]

Seeing as how "banning sin" would also be banning free will, I was going to abstain from voting; however, upon further review, I went with "excessive speeding" which is already a punishable offense.

[dairygirl4u2c]

I didn't say, or at least didn't mean, that "my statemets were so ambiguous that they couldn't be deciphered, yet use common sense to know what they mean. "
It's not contradictory because something can be ambiguous but everyone still knows what it means. Most things people say are ambiguous but people are so accustomed to knowing what the ambiguous thing means they don't think about it. I think that's the case here for the reasons I've stated above.
Here, people could only looking for things to poke holes in. That's the mindset that people take with polls. Almost no poll other than the very basics can be perfect, that's a common knowledge amoung poll makers. Sure there will be some shades to how people answer, but overall the average is what you're seeking anyway. As a poll maker you make your shades as little as you can, and i think this is at taht point. People who shade it are trying to for hte most part.

Edited March 27, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

Thanks Kujo. You're a Catholic and consistent. You draw a very real line with things that affect other people. (as a Catholic, shouldnt you have voted for abortion too? it is multiple choice...)

Others vote against sodomy but can't give much reasons why they dn't ban fornication. According to what they say and the poll results. I agree it's less wrong in their theory fornication is, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be banned? Unless their argument is that ti's a matter of degree whereas I don't think so, then it's be inherent difference of opinion.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='kujo' post='1220179' date='Mar 26 2007, 11:18 PM']Seeing as how "banning sin" would also be banning free will, I was going to abstain from voting; however, upon further review, I went with "excessive speeding" which is already a punishable offense.[/quote]


Being in sin is not free will. It's enslavement. Being in Christ is free will, that is what we are given when we become Christian. The power to overcome sin. Free will is not the power to do good or evil. For when we are evil we do not have the power to do good. Free will is the ability or freedom to do good as Augustine defined it. Those in sin are not free.

[dairygirl4u2c]

Whatever you want to call it, God gave man the power and autonomy to choose to sin. If we deny them that, we are denying them what God gave them.
And I would posit what he gave them to have the right to act on.

Edited March 27, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[kujo]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1220197' date='Mar 27 2007, 12:50 AM']Thanks Kujo. You're a Catholic and consistent. You draw a very real line with things that affect other people. (as a Catholic, shouldnt you have voted for abortion too? it is multiple choice...)

Others vote against sodomy but can't give much reasons why they dn't ban fornication. According to what they say and the poll results. I agree it's less wrong in their theory fornication is, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be banned? Unless their argument is that ti's a matter of degree whereas I don't think so, then it's be inherent difference of opinion.[/quote]

I guess I overlooked abortion (and the fact that it is multiple choice ) ABORTION IS HOMICIDE AND SHOULD BE VERY VERY VERY VERY ILLEGAL.

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1220464' date='Mar 27 2007, 01:41 PM']Being in sin is not free will. It's enslavement. Being in Christ is free will, that is what we are given when we become Christian. The power to overcome sin. Free will is not the power to do good or evil. For when we are evil we do not have the power to do good. Free will is the ability or freedom to do good as Augustine defined it. Those in sin are not free.[/quote]

Agreed.

But the question is should we mandate the proper use of free will? Is that our job? Or is it our duty to educated and evangelize to the world, being instruments of God's love and mercy, showing our fellow man the Truth and how to live in It?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='kujo' post='1220571' date='Mar 27 2007, 04:15 PM']I guess I overlooked abortion (and the fact that it is multiple choice ) ABORTION IS HOMICIDE AND SHOULD BE VERY VERY VERY VERY ILLEGAL.
Agreed.

But the question is should we mandate the proper use of free will? Is that our job? Or is it our duty to educated and evangelize to the world, being instruments of God's love and mercy, showing our fellow man the Truth and how to live in It?[/quote]Actions have consequences at many different levels. We do put limits on Rights not just to protect other's Rights, but because Rights include Responsibilities.

Just because you can get away with something does not mean it's morally okay.

[kujo]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1220728' date='Mar 27 2007, 07:50 PM']Actions have consequences at many different levels. We do put limits on Rights not just to protect other's Rights, but because Rights include Responsibilities.

Just because you can get away with something does not mean it's morally okay.[/quote]

Agreed.

But, as one of my political science professors once told me, my rights as an American end at the point at which they infringe on the rights of my fellow man. So, for instance, I have the "right" to think that peanut butter and jelly sandwiches are lame and evil. As such, I have the "right" to campaign for the prohibition of this dastardly treat; however, I do NOT have the "right" to snatch PB&J sandwiches out of the hands of unsuspecting preschool children at their lunch table because they have the "right" to eat whatever they wish.

It may seem like a very basic explanation, but I think it holds true to more weighty discussions. As Americans, we can hold true any set of beliefs that we wish. But the second we infringe on the self-determination and free will of other Americans, we have violated their rights.

We are actually have a very similar discussion in another thread on homosexuality in the armed services that you should check out.

[hoosieranna]

I thought the whole point was to avoid sin in the first place, thereby exercising free will and staying good with God. Maybe I missed something.

[kujo]

[quote name='Nadezhda' post='1220913' date='Mar 28 2007, 12:18 AM']I thought the whole point was to avoid sin in the first place, thereby exercising free will and staying good with God. Maybe I missed something.[/quote]

Absolutely correct. We are to FREELY CHOOSE Christ, rejecting all that isn't of Him. But the question here is whether it is the job of a nation's governing-body to pass legislation making it a crime to commit certain sins.

[hoosieranna]

[quote name='kujo' post='1220923' date='Mar 27 2007, 10:32 PM']Absolutely correct. We are to FREELY CHOOSE Christ, rejecting all that isn't of Him. But the question here is whether it is the job of a nation's governing-body to pass legislation making it a crime to commit certain sins.[/quote]

Oh, okay. Thanks.

[Resurrexi]

I voted for all sins, natural law, sodomy, fornication, masturbation, non-procreative (not even having the possibility of conception) sex acts, condoms, abortion, excessive speeding and being non-Christian.

The teaching that Catholics must do their best to make sure that civil laws are in conformity with the laws of nature is found in the Syllabus:

[quote][b]The Syllabus of Errors condemned by Bl. Pope Pius IX:[/b]
56. Moral laws do not stand in need of the divine sanction, and it is not at all necessary that human laws should be made conformable to the laws of nature and receive their power of binding from God. -- Allocution "Maxima quidem," June 9, 1862.
[url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm"]http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm[/url][/quote]

Sodomy, fornication, masturbation, sex acts which have no possibility of procreation, use of condoms, abortion and excessive speeding are all against the Decalogue and are therefore all against the natural law (The Decalogue is just the Natural Law restated)

[quote][b]The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Part III:[/b]
But, lest the people, aware of the abrogation of the Mosaic Law, may imagine that the precepts of the Decalogue are no longer obligatory, it should be taught that when God gave the Law to Moses, He did not so much establish a new code, as render more luminous that divine light* which the depraved morals and long-continued perversity of man had at that time almost obscured. It is most certain that we are not bound to obey the Commandments because they were delivered by Moses, but because they are implanted in the hearts of all, and have been explained and confirmed by Christ our Lord.
[url="http://catecheticsonline.com/Trent3.php"]http://catecheticsonline.com/Trent3.php[/url][/quote]

Being non-Christian should also be against the law as follows from the Syllabus.

[quote][b]The Syllabus of Errors condemned by Pope Bl. Pius IX:[/b]
77. In the present day it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be held as the only religion of the State, to the exclusion of all other forms of worship. -- Allocution "Nemo vestrum," July 26, 1855.

78. Hence it has been wisely decided by law, in some Catholic countries, that persons coming to reside therein shall enjoy the public exercise of their own peculiar worship. -- Allocution "Acerbissimum," Sept. 27, 1852.

79. Moreover, it is false that the civil liberty of every form of worship, and the full power, given to all, of overtly and publicly manifesting any opinions whatsoever and thoughts, conduce more easily to corrupt the morals and minds of the people, and to propagate the pest of indifferentism. -- Allocution "Nunquam fore," Dec. 15, 1856.
[url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm"]http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm[/url][/quote]

[Resurrexi]

I voted for all sins, natural law, sodomy, fornication, masturbation, non-procreative (not even having the possibility of conception) sex acts, condoms, abortion, excessive speeding and being non-Christian.

The teaching that Catholics must do their best to make sure that civil laws are in conformity with the laws of nature is found in the Syllabus:

[quote][b]The Syllabus of Errors condemned by Bl. Pope Pius IX:[/b]
56. Moral laws do not stand in need of the divine sanction, and it is not at all necessary that human laws should be made conformable to the laws of nature and receive their power of binding from God. -- Allocution "Maxima quidem," June 9, 1862.
[url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm"]http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm[/url][/quote]

Sodomy, fornication, masturbation, sex acts which have no possibility of procreation, use of condoms, abortion and excessive speeding are all against the Decalogue and are therefore all against the natural law (The Decalogue is just the Natural Law restated)

[quote][b]The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Part III:[/b]
But, lest the people, aware of the abrogation of the Mosaic Law, may imagine that the precepts of the Decalogue are no longer obligatory, it should be taught that when God gave the Law to Moses, He did not so much establish a new code, as render more luminous that divine light* which the depraved morals and long-continued perversity of man had at that time almost obscured. It is most certain that we are not bound to obey the Commandments because they were delivered by Moses, but because they are implanted in the hearts of all, and have been explained and confirmed by Christ our Lord.
[url="http://catecheticsonline.com/Trent3.php"]http://catecheticsonline.com/Trent3.php[/url][/quote]

Being non-Christian should also be against the law as follows from the Syllabus.

[quote][b]The Syllabus of Errors condemned by Pope Bl. Pius IX:[/b]
77. In the present day it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be held as the only religion of the State, to the exclusion of all other forms of worship. -- Allocution "Nemo vestrum," July 26, 1855.

78. Hence it has been wisely decided by law, in some Catholic countries, that persons coming to reside therein shall enjoy the public exercise of their own peculiar worship. -- Allocution "Acerbissimum," Sept. 27, 1852.

79. Moreover, it is false that the civil liberty of every form of worship, and the full power, given to all, of overtly and publicly manifesting any opinions whatsoever and thoughts, conduce more easily to corrupt the morals and minds of the people, and to propagate the pest of indifferentism. -- Allocution "Nunquam fore," Dec. 15, 1856.
[url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm"]http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm[/url][/quote]