By Their Fruits You Shall Recognize Them

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1228085' date='Apr 3 2007, 12:24 AM']Raphael are you referring that we our own trees and that we have to mind our own fruit or are you talking about the tree being the church and that the fruit are the members?[/quote]
Neither, I'm saying that Budge tries to take "bad fruit" from any individual member of the Church as a sign that the whole Church is bad. Bad fruit from any individual member only shows that the individual member is sinful, not the whole Church. Further, fitting it in with the parable of the wheat and the weeds, the bad fruit of an individual member only proves that that individual is a weed instead of wheat, but since both exist in the Church, and Jesus said so, then it is completely unbiblical to say that any Church is bad if it has people in it who bear bad fruit. Jesus told us that the true Church would have such people. Budge likes to focus on such people...priests who don't follow Church teaching...celebrities who claim to be Catholic, but practice otherwise...politicians who are anti-life...and she tries to pass off that bad fruit as a sign that the Catholic Church is bad. It's not biblical. It's contrary to Scripture. It's also illogical.

Budge should come up to my university, where it is clear that the Holy Spirit is moving. Why don't you come up here, Budge? We had a slum in the middle of campus where two students were murdered a decade and a half ago...and a priest asked the Holy Spirit to come and bless the campus and he took the student body with him into the slums to evangelize...they knocked on doors, spread the Gospel, and prayed with these people. It worked. The violence stopped. I think that's pretty good fruit, don't you? What about our Rugby team, which is more concerned with spreading the Gospel on the field than with winning the game? What about our households (Catholic fraternities and sororities), which meet to pray several times a week? No, you refuse to look at the good. You refuse to see the good fruit. You refuse to acknowledge all the good people on this website who have had Christlike patience with you as you've tried to crucify them again and again.

Budge is not interested in spreading the Gospel...her intention may be to do so, I can't judge that, but it's clear that she is not. She comes her to attack what she doesn't even know, and she doesn't even practice the rules of engagement for debate. Budge doesn't want to see the good fruit because the good fruit is Catholic.

God bless,

Micah

[Budge]

N[quote]either, I'm saying that Budge tries to take "bad fruit" from any individual member of the Church as a sign that the whole Church is bad. Bad fruit from any individual member only shows that the individual member is sinful, not the whole Church. Further, fitting it in with the parable of the wheat and the weeds, the bad fruit of an individual member only proves that that individual is a weed instead of wheat, but since both exist in the Church, and Jesus said so, then it is completely unbiblical to say that any Church is bad if it has people in it who bear bad fruit. Jesus told us that the true Church would have such people. Budge likes to focus on such people...priests who don't follow Church teaching...celebrities who claim to be Catholic, but practice otherwise...politicians who are anti-life...and she tries to pass off that bad fruit as a sign that the Catholic Church is bad. It's not biblical. It's contrary to Scripture. It's also illogical.[/quote]

To be honest with you, I see the insitutiton as corrupt and bad, most of the individuals I have posted on as being corrupt if you had noticed, ARE ALL CLERGY and the LEADERSHIP OF YOUR CHURCH leading people astray. I see Catholics as VICTIMS of a false religious system, not the instigators.

Jesus warned of wolves in sheep's clothing and I see Catholics on this very thread, giving out the idea even if indirectly you have to accept all the "weeds" wolves, because supposely they are "few" In the Catholic leadership the good oens are the EXCEPTION, we post about them on my board, under posts called PROFILES IN PRIESTLY COURAGE, they usually are the ones who are whistleblowing getting drop kicked by the bishops, for actually having a conscience.

I consider most of the priests VICTIMS as well by the way, under corrupt false authorities, sure there are good guys in the trenches, who do good charity work, who change their communities for the better but they too are being taught wrong theology and led by these corrupt authorities who teach them false theology. There are great priests who if they held the gospel instead of bondage to Rome's false sacramental system. could do good work for God.

The sad thing about Catholics, is they cant realize when someone is trying to help them to know the gospel and face the false teachings in Catholicism they think the Christian is "insulting" them when it is far from the truth. I was once a Catholic, I even admit here, I was even in a WORSE place called the UU. But this is to be expected time and time again, Christians are warned that many would take offense to the gospel, that those who serve a watchman role do anything but win popularity contests.

Edited April 3, 2007 by Budge

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1228308' date='Apr 3 2007, 09:20 AM']To be honest with you, I see the insitutiton as corrupt and bad, most of the individuals I have posted on as being corrupt if you had noticed, ARE ALL CLERGY and the LEADERSHIP OF YOUR CHURCH leading people astray. I see Catholics as VICTIMS of a false religious system, not the instigators.[/quote]

What am I, Budge, for being a faithful Catholic who knows what the Church believes and can prove it to such an extent that you have to drop out of debate with me? Am I a victim or an instigator.

The problem, Budge, is that you have convinced yourself of an illusion. You are so filled with bitterness and hatred at what you should reject (universalism, etc.) that you throw away everything that (to you) seems similar. You refuse to listen to what the Church actually teaches because you say the Church isn't trustworthy. Well, if the Church isn't even trustworthy enough that you can believe what the Church says it teaches, then that leaves you with no idea of what the Church teaches, and therefore no grounds to say that the Church teaches falsely.

[quote]Jesus warned of wolves in sheep's clothing and I see Catholics on this very thread, giving out the idea even if indirectly you have to accept all the "weeds" wolves, because supposely they are "few" In the Catholic leadership the good oens are the EXCEPTION, we post about them on my board, under posts called PROFILES IN PRIESTLY COURAGE, they usually are the ones who are whistleblowing getting drop kicked by the bishops, for actually having a conscience. [/quote]Budge, you don't understand the Catholic faith. You've refused to look at it honestly and therefore you see anyone who rejects it as a hero. Don't think that you're honoring those who reject the Church. You're honoring those who reject Jesus Christ, but you refuse to acknowledge that Jesus lives in His Church.

You can throw out "wolves in sheep's clothing" all you want. That doesn't make it true. You've convinced yourself falsely that all things Catholic are evil. You've been dishonest about it. You've deceived others by stating falsehoods against us. Why won't you acknowledge what is quite clear, that you know nothing about our faith?

[quote]I consider most of the priests VICTIMS as well by the way, under corrupt false authorities, sure there are good guys in the trenches, who do good charity work, who change their communities for the better but they too are being taught wrong theology and led by these corrupt authorities who teach them false theology. There are great priests who if they held the gospel instead of bondage to Rome's false sacramental system. could do even more work for God.[/quote]

Again, accusations without proof.

[quote]The sad thing about Catholics, is they cant realize when someone is trying to help them to know the gospel and face the false teachings in Catholicism they think the Christian is "insulting" them when it is far from the truth. I was once a Catholic, I even admit here, I was even in a WORSE place called the UU. But this is to be expected time and time again, Christians are warned that many would take offense to the gospel, that those who serve a watchman role do anything but win popularity contests.[/quote]

Budge, if you want us to think that you're trying to show us the Gospel, then actually understanding what we believe in the first place would be the first step. You can't lead us astray, Budge. We're actually catechized. That's why when you come here to try to convert us, we can just roll our eyes, because you aren't even speaking to us...you're speaking to some made-up Catholic who exists only in your head. How can you expect to convert us when you don't even know what you're talking about?

[Budge]

[quote]
What am I, Budge, for being a faithful Catholic who knows what the Church believes and can prove it to such an extent that you have to drop out of debate with me? Am I a victim or an instigator.
[/quote]Actually youre in the place of simply wanting to close your ears and eyes. This is noting new to me. You approach these discussions with your mind made up ahead of time, that you will not examine any of your churches own teachings, and will "Fight" the bad fundie who is here to try and "take your faith" away.

youre reaction here is nothing new to me/
[quote]

The problem, Budge, is that you have convinced yourself of an illusion. You are so filled with bitterness and hatred at what you should reject (universalism, etc.) that you throw away everything that (to you) seems similar.[/quote]

Ive been posting on the universalism in the Catholic Church for years, and I have found the answers and exucses for it to be nothing but LACKING. The fact of the matter is 13 years of an "education" in unitarian universalism is like no other, especially when that person moves on to be a Christian. I cant be fooled by covert New Ageism that is happening in other churches either.

You definitely are, telling me over and over like others to IGNORE whats right in front of my face.
[quote]
You refuse to listen to what the Church actually teaches because you say the Church isn't trustworthy. Well, if the Church isn't even trustworthy enough that you can believe what the Church says it teaches, then that leaves you with no idea of what the Church teaches, and therefore no grounds to say that the Church teaches falsely.[/quote]??? What is that mess. If youre trying to confuse people on purpose the above could do no better. To even fulfill what you want as I said elsewhere someone would have TO AGREE with you.

Your church and its leadership are NOT trustworthy. I do not put total trust in men even in the men of my own churches but in God and His Word.

[quote]You can throw out "wolves in sheep's clothing" all you want. That doesn't make it true.[/quote]

Jesus said it NOT me.

So WHY IS THAT WARNING IN THE BIBLE, and WHY DO YOU REJECT IT?
[quote]
You've convinced yourself falsely that all things Catholic are evil.[/quote]A lie on your part, I have stated time and timea gain Catholics are victims of a false religious system not evil themelves.
[quote]
Budge, if you want us to think that you're trying to show us the Gospel, then actually understanding what we believe in the first place would be the first step.[/quote]

Strawman, unless I agreed with Catholic theology or changed into an ecumenical protestant, you will keep repeating the above.

[quote]We're actually catechized. [/quote]And honestly that is too bad.

You do know what the word CATECHISM means dont you?
[quote]

cat·e·chism (kăt'ĭ-kĭz'əm) pronunciation
n.

1. A book giving a brief summary of the basic principles of Christianity in question-and-answer form.
2. A manual giving basic instruction in a subject, [b]usually by rote or repetition.[/b]
3. A body of fundamental principles or beliefs,[b] especially when accepted uncritically:[/b] “the core of the catechism of the antinuclear left, the notion that the threat to peace is technological, not political” (George F. Will).
4. A close questioning or examination, as of a political figure.

[French catechisme, from Old French, from Late Latin catēchismus, from Late Greek katēkhismos, from katēkhizein, to teach by word of mouth. See catechize.][/quote]

The sad thing you think I am your enemy, I am not.
[b]
Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?[/b]

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Budge' post='1228325' date='Apr 3 2007, 12:15 PM']Actually youre in the place of simply wanting to close your ears and eyes. This is noting new to me. You approach these discussions with your mind made up ahead of time, that you will not examine any of your churches own teachings, and will "Fight" the bad fundie who is here to try and "take your faith" away.

youre reaction here is nothing new to me/


Ive been posting on the universalism in the Catholic Church for years, and I have found the answers and exucses for it to be nothing but LACKING. The fact of the matter is 13 years of an "education" in unitarian universalism is like no other, especially when that person moves on to be a Christian. I cant be fooled by covert New Ageism that is happening in other churches either.

You definitely are, telling me over and over like others to IGNORE whats right in front of my face.
??? What is that mess. If youre trying to confuse people on purpose the above could do no better. To even fulfill what you want as I said elsewhere someone would have TO AGREE with you.

Your church and its leadership are NOT trustworthy. I do not put total trust in men even in the men of my own churches but in God and His Word.
Jesus said it NOT me.

So WHY IS THAT WARNING IN THE BIBLE, and WHY DO YOU REJECT IT?
A lie on your part, I have stated time and timea gain Catholics are victims of a false religious system not evil themelves.
Strawman, unless I agreed with Catholic theology or changed into an ecumenical protestant, you will keep repeating the above.

And honestly that is too bad.

You do know what the word CATECHISM means dont you?
The sad thing you think I am your enemy, I am not.
[b]
Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?[/b][/quote]LOL
You are my enemy because you DON'T tell the truth.
By your own admission, you tell us that you have been fooled more than once. You've just traded one mistake for another. Just because you believe it doesn't mean it isn't a lie.
You have no consistent theological understanding, nor do you even attempt reasonable thought processes. Anything can be misconstrued to fit a pre-conceived notion.

[Budge]

Considering youve left Rome...Right?

How are you any better then me.

Also calling someone a liar because you dont like what they have to say is weak.

[quote]You have no consistent theological understanding, nor do you even attempt reasonable thought processes. Anything can be misconstrued to fit a pre-conceived notion.[/quote]
TRANSLATION>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

Because you dont agree with me, I will tell you that you are inconsistent and have no reasonable thought processes rather then dealing with the issues or subject at hand.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Budge' post='1228387' date='Apr 3 2007, 01:40 PM']Because you dont agree with me, I will tell you that you are inconsistent and have no reasonable thought processes rather then dealing with the issues or subject at hand.[/quote]
BINGO!
You've been proven wrong, illogical, misleading, and unreasonable time and time again. Yet you keep posting.
Strength of commitment does not equal strength of validity.

[Budge]

Heres a quote from my board.

Anamoly, the person that disagrees with Catholicism with things she FEELS like disagreeing on, but anyone else who dares to disagree too is to be put down.

Gee that makes a lot of sense, I guess it it shows the confusion of Cafeteria Catholicism.


[quote]So typical of Roman apologists:

We do not have to prove any of our assertions, ignore all our contradictions, and by the way you are anti-catholic and antagonistic. Just for good measure here are some personal attacks and condescending language to prove my point.[/quote]

[Budge]

Heres a quote from my board.

Anamoly, the person that disagrees with Catholicism with things she FEELS like disagreeing on, but anyone else who dares to disagree too is to be put down.

Gee that makes a lot of sense, I guess it it shows the confusion of Cafeteria Catholicism.


[quote]So typical of Roman apologists:

We do not have to prove any of our assertions, ignore all our contradictions, and by the way you are anti-catholic and antagonistic. Just for good measure here are some personal attacks and condescending language to prove my point.[/quote][quote]emember that Roman Catholics Apologists are conditioned to use the labelling technique instead of responding with an argument.
They get the TriFecta:
. . . claiming victim status
. . . demonizing their opponent
. . . and fogging the dialogue.[/quote]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1228325' date='Apr 3 2007, 10:15 AM']Actually youre in the place of simply wanting to close your ears and eyes. This is noting new to me. You approach these discussions with your mind made up ahead of time, that you will not examine any of your churches own teachings, and will "Fight" the bad fundie who is here to try and "take your faith" away.[/quote]

Budge, it is inconsistent with wanting to close my eyes and ears for me to answer each of your posts in minute detail, citing Scripture, citing Catechism, citing logical reasoning, and citing faith. You, on the other hand, do not respond to the majority of my posts. Why? Is it because you wish to close your ears and eyes? I defend my faith because I used to ridicule it. I chose my faith knowing the objections to it. You seem to indicate that I was brainwashed. You say that I will not examine my Church's teachings. I spent years examining them, Budge. I concluded that they were correct. You, however, have completely failed to examine my Church's teachings. You come here with your mind already made up because you hate what you do not know.

[quote]Ive been posting on the universalism in the Catholic Church for years, and I have found the answers and exucses for it to be nothing but LACKING. The fact of the matter is 13 years of an "education" in unitarian universalism is like no other, especially when that person moves on to be a Christian. I cant be fooled by covert New Ageism that is happening in other churches either.[/quote]Budge, there are no excuses for universalism in the Catholic Church. There are no answers for it. This is because there is no universalism in the Church. Our teaching is clear: there is no other way to be saved than through Jesus Christ. That is not universalism.

[quote]You definitely are, telling me over and over like others to IGNORE whats right in front of my face.
??? What is that mess. If youre trying to confuse people on purpose the above could do no better. To even fulfill what you want as I said elsewhere someone would have TO AGREE with you.[/quote]

I was saying that you don't even trust the Magisterium to know its own faith. If you don't think that even the Catholics know the faith, how can you think that you do? You tell us that we don't know the faith. We cite the Catechism. You tell us that the Catechism doesn't really represent true Catholic teaching. We say that the pope said it did. You say that the pope doesn't really mean it because he's just trying to deceive. Ultimately, Budge, it comes down to this: you are judging the pope and the bishops. You are judging them as guilty of some vast conspiracy, despite all the evidence in the other direction. You are doing this because you have the preconceived notion that they don't deserve any trust. You come to that conclusion from where? You come to that conclusion because you find their teachings to be untrustworthy. Where do you get that? You say that's because they can't be trusted. It's circular reasoning, Budge, and it's all because you are judging the hearts of men as evil, even when what they teach is good. Your complete distrust has blinded you to the fact that you have no reason to distrust the Catholic Church, except from the prior notion that you just don't like the Church. You have yet to show us any proof for your teachings or to back up what you say. If you truly believe in what you are saying, you should be able to back it up. Don't you blame it on me, Budge. You don't even respond to my objections, you just say, "well, you should accept it because of what I wrote," and I say, "what you wrote is false, why should I believe it?" You reply, "because it's true." Well, Budge, the whole point of evidence is to prove that something is true, not just to support a theory.

[quote]Your church and its leadership are NOT trustworthy. I do not put total trust in men even in the men of my own churches but in God and His Word.[/quote]Budge, you have to cite evidence that my Church is not trustworthy. You've never done that. Do you see the problem, Budge? You blame us for not seeing what you see, because you do not see clearly (and that much is evident from the difference between your account of Catholicism and the Church's account of Catechism).

[quote]Jesus said it NOT me.
So WHY IS THAT WARNING IN THE BIBLE, and WHY DO YOU REJECT IT?[/quote]

That warning is in the Bible to protect us from people bearing false teaching...but that doesn't mean you can just call anyone wolves. What if I said it was referring to you? You would say, "but it's not referring to me, I bring the truth!" and I would say, "prove it." The Catholic Church has proven it for 2000 years. I've proven it since you got here. You have ignored my proof and for your part have proven nothing.

[quote]A lie on your part, I have stated time and timea gain Catholics are victims of a false religious system not evil themelves.[/quote]I didn't say anything about Catholics, I was talking about Catholic theology, tradition, etc. You say that's evil.

[quote]Strawman, unless I agreed with Catholic theology or changed into an ecumenical protestant, you will keep repeating the above.[/quote]

Do you know what a strawman fallacy is? The above was not a fallacy, but if it were, it most certainly wasn't a strawman fallacy. A strawman fallacy would be to say you believe something you don't believe and then to argue against it. I didn't do that. I only said that you don't know Catholic teaching and you need to learn it if you want to actually debate with us.

[quote]You do know what the word CATECHISM means dont you?[/quote]Nice job using the secular dictionary to define a religious word. How about actually looking at how the Church defines it, Budge. The Catechism is a book of teachings of the Catholic Church handed down from the apostles. The word "katachein," used by St. Paul, means "re-echo." A Catechism is an echoing of the faith. Nothing about mere rote memorization or uncriticized teaching, Budge. That's a secular interpretation...and a false one.

[quote]The sad thing you think I am your enemy, I am not.[/quote]

I don't think you're my enemy. I think you're a very misled person who hates what she thinks the Catholic Church is...and I wish there was something I could do to help. You just won't let me because you refuse to learn what the Catholic Church actually believes.

[quote][b]Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?[/b][/quote]

St. Paul was a Catholic. When he said "truth," he was referring to Catholic truth.

God bless,

Micah